Windproof parka not windshirt

[Edward John M]

How light can you go?

Is UL fine cotton still a viable fabric for Arctic parkas or have the new UL coated synthetics supplanted it.

OR

Is a dual layer garment the way to go with a wear and tear layer on the outside and an UL wind resistant layer inside

Would 2.2 ounce ripstop be more than good enough or is 0.9 ounce adequate?

Are big parkas in UL fabrics like ponchos? In that as the become lighter they become more unwieldy and hard to use>?

[Anonymous]

Nm, probably didn’t answer the question.

[Edward John M]

I’m happy to take any input Justin

I tried a quick mock-up using pins on some UL Argon fabric and I would hate to try and put something this LW on in any sort of a breeze. Even my Montaine Featherlite is a PITA to get on in a wind and an Arctic parka is about 7 times the sail area.

I’m beginning to think that UL ( or even traditional LW ) is a huge mistake for this type of garment

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Ed

Research ‘Ventile’. It’s a WW II cotton fabric developed for pilot suits so they could survive a dunking in the North Sea during the war. It is still a viable product, at least for those not utterly convinced that everything must be synthetic. It is available via http://www.ventile.co.uk/
and actually comes from Switzerland these days. And they claim it is still in use by the military.

Cheers

[Edward John M]

Hi Roger

I’m actually familiar with Ventile,  I have 5 metres of it here in my stash and mine came from Holland It makes up into a very heavy parka I was hoping to get something a lot lighter than 3.7 kilos

I was wondering about using downproof Japara but that is getting very hard to find

Cheers

Ted

[Roger Caffin]

You can not buy real Japara any more. It was a very tightly woven fabric, and there was only one loom, in Bradford UK, which was strong enough to weave it. About 20 years ago (+/- 10) the loom broke down, and was judged uneconomic to repair. I may still have a metre or two, but that is all.

I believe you can still get something called ‘japara’, but it is really a just poly-cotton fabric, not long-staple Egyptian cotton.

Cheers

[Rob P]

This was a pretty good thread on the Winter Trekking website, in case you have not already read it:

http://www.wintertrekking.com/community/index.php?topic=189.15

 

[Edward John M]

Hmmm I think you will find that particular mill was actually in Spotiswoode Melbourne at the Bradford factory

I know this because I used to live next door to the Chief Engineer in charge of Maintenance.

The whole LW factory and loom was dismantled and shipped to China I was told and I think the HW loom went to Wax Converters in Queensland

It was a dirty dangerous place to work apparently, a lot of the long term employees had severe lung disease because they would not upgrade the factory to a modern safe working environment and that’s why it went to China

As to the fabric, it does show up from time to time, at Spotlight and other places. Evan at TerraRosa has a roll and is hanging onto what he has

Now IF I could find a few metres would it work or is 3.5 ounce cotton too light?

 

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Ed

Oh.
When I was told ‘Bradford’, I did assume ‘Bradford UK’ as that is a major textile centre we were familiar with. But the Oz Bradford plant – quite possibly. They are STILL focused on cotton there.

So do you think the Chinese repaired the loom? Interesting.

Cheers
PS: me, I use a light EPIC fabric these days. Works well.

EDIT: the Australian company is Bradmill, not Bradford, as Ed has noted. Silly me – i shhould have realised that. Back to Bradford UK in that case.
For those still interested – searching will bring up ‘waxed cotton’, but that is NOT what was used on the Paddy Pallin Japara tents. There seems to have been some confusion of temrinology.

[Rob P]

Edward,

I’m not sure if any of this will help you or not…anyway…

Here is a lightweight cotton Anorak:  It looks like you would like to make your own, but these more “traditional” clothing makers are pretty up to date on material availability….you could contact Kevin at Empire and ask him about really lightweight cottons.  (or some of the other people that are presenters at the Winter Camping Symposium…they are DIY aficionados.

https://empirecanvasworks.com/product/snowshoe-hare-pullover/

There are also some more traditional winter clothing makers that make anoraks out of supplex….this might be a happy medium…probably lighter than cotton, but not as light and wispy as some of the real light weight fabrics. so they might not flap around as much in a real strong wind.  I would think supplex is pretty easy to find in case you want to make your own.  Here are some supplex anoraks…some are lined and some are not:

https://www.wintergreennorthernwear.com/collections/mens-anoraks

 

 

 

[Anonymous]

Are you looking for low flammability and/or no melting for use near open fire?   Otherwise, I’m not sure the reason for cotton other than sustainability (though nowadays, a lot of regular cotton grown involves a lot of heavy duty pesticides, and only organic cotton might be considered more truly sustainable)?

I’ll just repeat what I recently said on another thread.  I really like the 1 oz/yd2 Robic nylon on Ripstop by the Roll’s site. Near ideal air porosity (“breathability”) IF you’re going to use it while active, and very tough for it’s weight.  But like any synthetic besides kevlar and nomex, won’t do very well in close quarters with open fires and sparks.  If that is part of the equation, wear your cashmere shirt over the windparka.

If I recollect correctly, I thought I remember seeing a comment where you said that the winters in your area tend to be on the wetter side?   Cotton anoraks etc, excel more in very cold and dry conditions.

If you can find EPIC fabric that is relatively lightweight and has good air porosity–that’s also a good option.  I’ve looked for said fabrics and have had a hard time finding them.  The EPIC that I have is heavy and very low air porosity.  I can only use it on my lower legs–I velcro it to much more breathable shorts.  Good for snow, light rain, freezing rain, etc. (n combo with an over sized windjacket for the former and a poncho for the latter).

[Edward John M]

Winters here are very wet

I’m looking for a shell garment for a deep winter trip to Canada and Alaska and I keep getting told that my Goretex isn’t suitable as it freezes up internally and stops letting water vapour out

I’ve also been told that the fabric needs to stiff enough to offer some resistance to wind collapse

What I do know is that if I make a parka that is big enough UL fabrics are almost impossible to put on in any sort of a wind and I may be in a very small tent when I am on my own

I’m looking for some sort of middle ground if that’s possible

I have just over a year to get this outfit together but once I lay out the fabric and cut it I’m committed

Roger -) It isn’t Bradford Of course it’s Bradmill; oops; but the engineer I lived next door to was very angry about hundreds of jobs being sent to a different country

About a year ago I scored some on a throw-out table for $5- but there was only just over a metre of fabric in the bundle, not really enough to do anything with and it is loomstate stuff, it hasn’t had the secondary copper treatment to make it rotproof

 

 

[Mark Fowler]

All Paddy’s japara came from the uk.  I cannot remember where exactly but Bradford or surrounds is very likely. The very old looms were only capable of weaving 30″ or 36″ width and the number of weaving faults was ncreasing as the looms aged.  The secret of the japara was not only the very fine weave but also the high level of twist applied to the yarn – modern looms couldn’t(?) impart the degree of twist which is one of the reasons why use of japara died out – changes in consumer preferences played a major role as well as lightweight proofed nylons and newer designs took market share.

The Bradmill fabric produced at Spotswood(?) was Kordux, a canvas woven from corespun poly-cotton thread which was used in Paddy’s packs and water buckets.  It was khaki in colour and after the loom went os the usually blue canvas then used was a poly-cotton blend rather than corespun.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Mark
Yup.
Cheers

[Edward John M]

Not according to my information Mark

I am sure that at least one of the many fabrics marketed as Japara would have come from the UK but Melbourne had a lot of factories using the Australian woven fabric because it was also used in the shells of sleeping bags and Doonas and down jackets

Kimptons in Collingwood and Puradown in Reservoir being the main ones I remember from around 1970. Fairydown NZ also used this same fabric prior to the use of ripstop nylon.

 

BTW It is Spotswood now but back in the 60s it was still Spottiswoode and there is a move on to return to the original spelling

[Mark Fowler]

Ted – we may be talking about different times.  My comments relate to the late 70’s early 80’s when I was the manager of Paddy’s manufacturing company deeply involved in buying the fabrics and dealing with the loss of supply of Kordux and issues with the quality and supply of japara.

[Nick Gatel]

Send Peter Vacco a PM. He’s hiked the Arctic Circle on the sea ice from the Bering Sea to almost Hudson Bay over several years.

[Edward John M]

I was 16YO when I bought my first down sleeping bag.

So yes that was 1968, so that must have been about the time nylon shells started to be used by Paddys, because my old Hotham has a heavy orange ripstop shell and it dates from around 1980 but my Era from the same time is a very LW fabric not at all the same fabric as  my earlier green tent but we called them all japara.

 

 

[Roger Caffin]

That Era fabric was not all that waterproof.

This was on Goon Moor on the Arthurs, a very long time ago (late 60s). The guy with the patched trousers is getting into a 3-man Era Golden Tan Paddy tent. I gather they (3 guys) had a rather damp time of it in there. I was in my MYOG nylon dome (fibreglass poles, maybe 7′ square) and apart from a little condensation, we were quite dry.

Cheers

[Edward John M]

It still isn’t all that waterproof but I still have it

I need your addresses Mark and Roger

I’ll send you a section of this fabric so you can see what it is like.

Highly possible you are familiar with the stuff by other names

It is about half the weight of the stuff Kevin at Empire Canvas uses in his LW shell anorak

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