- Mar 6, 2018 at 6:36 am #3522623
Joshua RodriguezBPL Member
I’ve been using a TT Moment DW the past couple years and I really love it — perfect amount of space for me and features.
One thing I like about it is that it doesn’t take a ton of staking to get it set up. I do a lot of hiking out in Utah and the Grand Canyon, where the soil is rocky and trees are few.
However, the last couple times I was down in the Canyon, I was hit by some pretty nasty windstorms. One time, a massive gust even broke the center pole and tore out a couple of the inner attachments.
Is is possible that I need to look into a more wind-worthy tent for stuff like this? Is it even possible to find something that’s bomber in wind but doesn’t require running out a ton of guylines?Mar 6, 2018 at 6:47 am #3522625
People with a lot more experience than I have will have better responses, but I’d say no, wind and not staking are diametrically opposed to each other. Your Moment probably wouldn’t have been injured if you’d staked it out in more places. High wind puts a lot of stress on shelters, and the only way to help contain that stress, I believe, is to stake it out more (at more points), not less.Mar 6, 2018 at 10:15 am #3522634
Adam KilpatrickBPL Member
@oystersLocale: South Australia
Proper Mountaineering Tunnel with 3+ poles. Eg Roger Caffin’s tents, Macpac Olympus, Hilleberg (several models).
Proper Mountaineering/”Alpine” Geodesic Domes or domes. Eg Black Diamond (formerly “Bibler”) I-tent (this dates pre- apple’s ipods and iphones, BTW), Bombshelter Tent, Mountain Hardwear’s Trango series, etc. There are others. Hilleberg does domes too. With many domes, eg alpine style ones (eg I-tent) you don’t necessarily need pegs at all, just enough weight.
I used an original moment for about 9 months (straight). Copped some pretty bad winds. Careful staking of both ends is important. Additional guy lines are important. Micro-site selection is important. Even small amounts of material cover from grass, rocks on the ground, will reduce the windspeed over any tent, improving its ability to handle wind. If I was intentionally going to put a Moment though high wind environments I would look to getting a strong pole, or, double poling it (two poles in one tube). Hilleberg Tents and the Macpac Olympus (at least it used to) allow you to put bigger and double poles in. Makes a big difference.
CheersMar 6, 2018 at 3:23 pm #3522676
Todd TBPL Member
@texasbbLocale: Pacific Northwest
Other things being equal, more stakes will be more wind-worthy than fewer. As for wanting fewer stakes because of rocky ground, that seems backwards to me, not that I don’t understand the frustration of finding places to sink stakes. I want more chances to get good ground connections when I know some of them will be shallow/weak.Mar 6, 2018 at 3:57 pm #3522682
Brad RogersBPL Member
@mocs123Locale: Southeast Tennessee
I think Adam is right a dome or geodesic tent with heavy duty poles will do ok without tons of stakes but you get into quite a bit of weight.Mar 6, 2018 at 5:01 pm #3522691
John HBPL Member
@johnnyh88Locale: The SouthWest
Maybe you should consider a bivy. The Miles Gear Uber Bivy is waterproof, looks to have decent room, and is not meant to be staked down.
Of all the tents I’ve used, I would say the MLD Solomid is the most wind-stable with the fewest stakes. With the poles in the inverted V and just 6 stakes, it’s quite solid – it’s got a small profile and a nice cat-curve.Mar 6, 2018 at 5:07 pm #3522692
wind and not staking are diametrically opposed to each other.
Here’s how Peter Vacco handles blizzards in the Arctic using his Hilleberg Akto. Lot’s of BIG stakes.
Here’s the video.Mar 6, 2018 at 5:10 pm #3522693
Dean F.BPL Member
@acrosomeLocale: Back in the Front Range
Well, the big question is “do you insist upon a fully enclosed tent with an inner, like your Moment?”
Because if that’s not important to you then there is the TrailStar, which is superbly wind-resistant using only five stakes, though it has tie-outs for up to 10 for truly nasty conditions. It’s famous for it. Pyramids are pretty good, too, but a fully bomber wind-scoffing pitch can use up to 8 stakes (and 12 is better, with separate stakes for bottom edge and center-wall tie-outs instead of sharing). I personally don’t find that I need double-walled shelters; I just use a bivy for bug protection.
But if you do insist upon a double- or 1.5-walled tent like the Moment, that’s a toughie. Usually, stakes = stability. You don’t really need literal stakes, though. In the desert you can tie off to stacks of rocks or somesuch.
Mar 6, 2018 at 6:15 pm #3522705
- This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by Dean F..
Because if that’s not important to you then there is the TrailStar, which is superblywind-resistant using only five stakes, though it has tie-outs for up to 10 for truly nasty conditions. It’s famous for it. Pyramids are pretty good, too, but a fully bomber wind-scoffing pitch can use up to 8 stakes (and 12 is better, with separate stakes for bottom edge and center-wall tie-outs instead of sharing). I personally don’t find that I need double-walled shelters; I just use a bivy for bug protection.
I’m with Dean here. If I could have only one shelter, it would be a Trailstar.
Here’s how to really “wind-proof” a pyramid…Mar 6, 2018 at 8:43 pm #3522740
Eric BlumensaadtBPL Member
@danepackerLocale: Mojave Desert
If I know there will be high winds (constant 30 – 40 mph, gusts to 60 mph) I :
1.Stake my TT Moment DW at each end as usual.
2. Then add side guy lines to the main hoop guy points.
3. Then stake out the 4 tent fly hem loops (to stop fly flapping.)
That’s 8 stakes for a tent that usually only needs 2 stakes. So no, I doubt there is a “wind-worthy” tent that needs only a few stakes.
And BTW, my Moment DW is far more wind-worthy than the pictured Hilleberg Akto. If necessary I have an optional crossing pole I can run beneath my fly for continuous fly support if I anticipate heavy snow loads. Try that with an Atko, which is really just a 3 season tent.Mar 6, 2018 at 10:14 pm #3522761
Franco DarioliBPL Member
From Dean :
there is the TrailStar, which is superbly wind-resistant using only five stakes, though it has tie-outs for up to 10 for truly nasty conditions.
Joshua’s Moment takes TWO stakes to stand up and hopefully apart from real nice conditions folk use another TWO (I don’t know if Joshua did or not) at the other two cardinal points corresponding to the guylines on the main pole.
As seen in the Peter Vacco Akto shots, stake size does matter (the guylines on my photo are wrapped around rocks…)
So a minimum of 5 stakes and up to ten if needed , I would think that it confirms the notion that no you can’t get a more stable tent using 2 or 4 stakes.Mar 7, 2018 at 12:39 am #3522801
Joshua RodriguezBPL Member
Yeah, I realize, after thinking a bit about this, that my initial question might have seemed kind of dumb…powerful wind is going to blow around lightweight fabric no matter what unless it’s tied down to something heavy.
Part of it is that I’m more used to the geodesic style tents, where stakes are more to just hold the thing down when there’s not enough weight inside.
I think I need to just accept that I’ll have to stake stuff out more when I’m dealing with windy environments. I think I’ve maybe been a bit lazy in learning good staking technique and site selection. Seems like the Moment can be pretty bomber if well-anchored, so I should just pack some extra guylines/stakes and do it. I know Henry doesn’t consider it his most windproof tent, but it does seem like plenty of folks are having good results with them in pretty nasty weather.
Might also consider a bivy or tarp for desert trips where I know I won’t be dealing with bugs or spending much time in my tent.Mar 7, 2018 at 1:07 am #3522808
Functional free-standing tents are a myth once you get out of the forest.
There is a posting somewhere here on BPL (a long time ago) from someone who pitched his ‘free-standing’ tent in a windy position and had the foresight to put his pack and all his gear inside it to hold it down.
Then the wind rose.
Then he had to find his tent and all his gear somewhere near the bottom of a canyon or gully. It did not get all the way down because it ended up shredded and wrapped around spiky gorse bushes. I don’t remember how much of his scattered gear he managed to recover.
CheersMar 7, 2018 at 8:51 am #3522866
Mole JBPL Member
I’ve used a Moment in high winds in Scotland . No cross pole.
For that, I needed 11 pegs to feel comfortable. 4 cardinal, 4 mid hem to stop flapping, 2 hoop guys (essential) and a blizzard stake/guy doubling up at the windward pitchlok.
Pitching in very gusty weather was hard, in fact, one time we bailed mid pitch and moved on a mile or so to a more sheltered site.
At times I wished I’d had my Scarp or Trailstar instead. Just for greater peace of mind.
My companions with their Locus Gear Khufu sil and Luxe Hex Peak, had more windworthy shelters.
The Moment is a great tent. Really user friendly in rain and reasonable winds. I could use it again for most trips I do (Though it was borrowed from my partner – to test)
But strengthwise, it’s no Akto.
The Scarp is nearer comparison to the Akto. And mostly, a better design. But not the same quality in materials or construction.
Mar 7, 2018 at 2:47 pm #3522897
- This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by Mole J.
Dean F.BPL Member
@acrosomeLocale: Back in the Front Range
@Franco- Yes, I understand. I owned a Moment for a few years, and it is indeed wicked fast to pitch since it just uses two stakes in the minimal setup. I could get it down to 60 seconds, and others have done better (including one of your videos IIRC). Frankly though I would propose that a pyramid set up with the minimal 4 stakes is very nearly as fast.
But NOTHING else is going to use so few stakes, so I think 5 for the highly wind-worthy TrailStar is doing pretty darned good.
@Nick- If I could have only one shelter- and I pretty much have for the past few years- it would be a 2P pyramid. I’ve said this so many times that I definitely qualify as a ‘mid fanboi by now. Among UL shelters ‘mids are probably second only to the TrailStar in wind-worthiness, they handle snow better, and are profoundly simple to pitch well. As in, stupid easy to pitch well. Fully staked out they are almost as bomber as a UL shelter can get, though 90% of the time you only need four or five stakes. (A full pitch is usually at least 8 stakes, if you double edge and panel tie-outs onto one stake.) A 2P ‘mid is a palace for one, with enough room to change clothes or cook. My perfect shelter might be a cuben MLD DuoMid XL (but the XL didn’t exist when I was buying and I couldn’t justify the cost of cuben at the time, so I have a silnylon basic DuoMid that has served me very well). I’m now broadening my horizons a bit, though. I just ordered a cuben Cricket tarp to play around with.Mar 8, 2018 at 3:24 am #3523034
Sam FarringtonBPL Member
@scfhomeLocale: Chocorua NH, USA
Check with TT to see if they are using Easton 340 or 344 tube for the pole. TT has used both on its products. If they are using 344, a pole made of 340 will be quite stronger and stiffer, albeit a little heavier, but worth the weight if you are camping in very high winds. TT may have a 340 pole, or you can buy one ready made from Tent Pole Technologies, or buy the materials from Quest Outfitters and make one yourself. If you want a bomber pole, Quest have higher diameter and thicker walled Easton poles also. Guying is important, but the tent structure and design are also.
Would also guess from the posts that you did not guy out the pole from the loops provided at the front and back of the tent. That would have made a big difference. Another strong feature of the Moment is that the design is such that the hoop guy-outs do not interfere with getting in and out of the tent.
One key for low peg tents is that the few pegs you do use must be strong and set carefully enough to resist stronger force. My hiking companion learned this the hard way when every single peg on her REI tent (now defunct) came out. In the morning, I got out of my tent and saw she and all of her gear were soaked. The winds were so strong on the bluff that although my self-supporting tent remained intact, the rain was blown so hard against it that it suffered some leakage. A few nights later, after a day of drying out, we had another downpour, but less wind, and no leakage.
IMO, the aerodynamic shape of the Moment is a plus in high winds compared to any kind of tent that has more nearer to vertical walls. The more vertical surfaces for the wind to attack, the more guy points and lines will be needed.
While Roger may disagree, one big advantage of a self-supporting tent, so long as they have less nearer vertical surfaces, is that although the tent must of course be anchored, high winds will put less pressure on the pegs to pull out. If the tent is supported entirely by stakes, high winds will exert higher pressure on the stakes, and more additional guys and stakes will be needed for support. All those extra stakes can take a tent right out of the lightweight category.
Yes there are bomber tents that use less guylines, but as was pointed out, they use a lot more crossing poles to create a stronger superstructure and the materials are heavier also. And they still must be anchored by pegs or other means. Hillebergs seem to be among the most popular in this category. If you look at Everest base camp photos, you’ll see a lot of such tents. Those climbers or their sherpas are in top shape and need very strong backs to haul them though.
If you can beef up the Moment, suggest that would be a good option.Mar 8, 2018 at 3:57 am #3523045
although the tent must of course be anchored,
I was only criticising the ‘free-standing’ design with zero stakes.
I could argue that a tunnel tent is almost self-supporting: it only needs 2 stakes at each end. Well, I would, wouldn’t I?
Even more so a geodesic dome which can sit there with no stakes – until it blows away.
And in the snow – deadman anchors!
CheersMar 8, 2018 at 8:47 am #3523081
“But NOTHING else is going to use so few stakes …”
Except the Stephenson Warmlite. But it’s not freestanding.Mar 8, 2018 at 8:50 am #3523082
@Nick- If I could have only one shelter- and I pretty much have for the past few years- it would be a 2P pyramid. I’ve said this so many times that I definitely qualify as a ‘mid fanboi by now. Among UL shelters ‘mids are probably second only to the TrailStar in wind-worthiness, they handle snow better, and are profoundly simple to pitch well.
I learned a long time ago that serious backpacking shelters need to accomplish 3 things:
- Shed wind
- Shed snow
- Be light
You are only going to get 2 out of 3. For me, wind is my main priority.
So the Trailstar hits #1 and #3 better than anything I have seen.
A quality tall pyramid ticks off #2 and #3.
A Scarp 1 with crossing poles meets #1 and #2.
My 1980’s Sierra Designs Superflash is better than the Scarp, but it weighs over 6lbs, has 3 hoops under the fly, and 20 stakes for full deployment.
These are the shelters I have owned and used extensively. I can’t speak to any others.Mar 8, 2018 at 9:07 am #3523084
2P summer tunnel tent: 1.26 kg +80 g for Ti stakes (complete). That’s 670 g per person. Has been used in the snow.
2P winter tunnel tent: 1.8 kg + 400 g for snow anchors (complete). That’s 1100 g /person. 100 kph wind all night.
I am sure there are lighter shelters around. Whether they provide as much shelter under severe to extreme conditions – I have some doubts. But I would welcome figures on other shelters.
CheersMar 8, 2018 at 11:46 am #3523089
Edward John MBPL Member
I don’t think the bridle works well with single pole tipi type tents, it works quite well on the old Scott 4 pole type thoMar 8, 2018 at 2:48 pm #3523099
Richie SBPL Member
I’d think something like a Hilleberg Unna or Soulo/Allak would be as close as you would get, but you are still going to need to do a lot of staking in high winds.Mar 8, 2018 at 3:01 pm #3523103
George FBPL Member
One shelter that doesn’t get mentioned often around here is the BD Beta Light. While not for everybody it has a lot going for it, especially if you are concerned with the wind. Used solo it is a palace, I alway set the poles up a little of center to open up floor space, and the S2S Nano works great inside for bug protection. Not the lightest, but a lot of good features if floorless works for you.Mar 8, 2018 at 6:00 pm #3523136
Art …BPL Member
North Face Tadpole 23 – discontinued but still available in some places. minimum trail weight 4.4 lb (my tent wt with 6 stakes, no tent bag).
a great very wind worthy 3+ season tent. 4 stakes for moderate wind, 6 stakes better for high winds.
I own and use this when I don’t need to go UL. have used it in winter Sierra snow situations.
Mar 8, 2018 at 7:09 pm #3523169
- This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by Art ....
Eric BlumensaadtBPL Member
@danepackerLocale: Mojave Desert
I own a TNF Tadpole and, from experience in heavy snow and winds, it most definitely is not a wind-worthy tent. The wide flat section at the top rear readily collects snow and depresses a lot in high winds.
Further the Tadpole does not have fly hem stake loops which are essential in staking down a tent to prevent the fly from flapping.
Finally the Tadpole outdated design requires that you set up the inner tent and poles before you can put the fly on. Very bad for setting up in the rain or high winds.
@nick G.- The TT Scarp 1 needs 2 X-ing poles (I have a Scarp 2) and my Moment DW needs one. Yeah the Scarp 1 has more interior space than the Moment DW but it’s also heavier and with 2 X-ing poles heavier yet.
As for the Hilleberg tents being more “bombproof” than Tarptents in terms of materials I agree, but the penalty is in the extra weight. Yes, in a howling all night windstorm that extra strength material weight may seem a blessing when you can have more confidence in the materials. But I have yet to see a properly staked double wall Tarptent get shredded in a big wind.
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