What makes Philmont unique?

[Charles L]

We were one of the troops whose treks got cancelled this past Summer.

We looked at alternatives.  We’re from Hawai’i, it’d been a pretty big investment.  There were some mildly complicated issues that led to a split in direction: half the group re-routed to Tahosa High Adventure Base, and that worked out well for them.

That was a poor fit for me and my kids, we re-routed to doing a solo venture, backpacking in the Redwoods for a few days, backpacking up in the Olympic NP for a few days.  It was pretty great.

I meander.  Basically, over the two years leading up to Philmont, I trained a ton: went on well over a dozen backpacking trips, dragging my kids to most of them, carrying a pack of bricks 350+ miles during my lunch breaks, dropping about 45 pounds of bodyfat they wouldn’t have let me drag on our trek.  Well, it was a lot of training for me, you guys probably do that stuff on a regular basis.

By the time we got done training, backpacking, &c., well, the backpacking in Redwoods and Olympics, it was a breeze.  Things came up, we were already used to handling them, we already knew what to do.  Which very much met my goals for Philmont, of learning how medium term/medium distance backpacking outings are supposed to go.

Now the question comes up, do we try to schedule a 2020 trip, or do we try to do it on our own.  My sense is that we’d be as well off, maybe better, if we just did our own trip.  Hiked our own hike?

But, we really didn’t do Philmont.  The Tahosa adventure for the other Scouts didn’t really seem to cover it, at least as we pictured it.  Aside from the Philmont safety net, what would we be missing?

-Charles

 

 

[Bruce Tolley]

@ Charles,

My personal opinion is that Philmont is not really about the backpacking.  In California, we have much closer and arguably more awesome places to backpack. Philmont is not really a wilderness experience but a curated experience where the crew essentially hikes for a few days, gets to a staffed camp, has a hot shower, and gets re-supplied, then does another 3 or 4 days of backpacking. Since it is curated neither the Scouts or the adult leaders have do much (or learn more) about itinerary planning, route finding, menu planning, etc.

All that being said, it is an ultimate Scouting experience. The Scouts build and lead their own crew.  The Scouts choose their own 400pm activities. The Scouts see older Scouts, the Guides, lead and mentor. In many crews, the Guide leads a short session under the stars before he leaves. The staff at our last staffed camp led a short session under the stars that emphasized the team building, the importance of character, and the Philmont experience all with large doses of Leave No Trace.

So I would say yes, go to Philmont. Choose the 12 day itinerary. Many Scouts have little interest in backpacking but will have fun at Philmont and learn a lot about themselves and their crewmates in the three training hikes, the 12 days of backpacking, and the rest of the Philmont program.

[tony g]

Your training sounds like a mission. I never hiked with bricks. Just altitude time and distance for me.

Have you looked into the Montana High Adventure Camp? This web site is a sponsor of I recall. Or there’s the Colorado trail? ( proper name?)

My committee is exploring the idea of the Alaskan High Adventue camp in 3 years.

[Pedestrian]

“The Scouts build and lead their own crew. The Scouts choose their own 400pm activities. The Scouts see older Scouts, the Guides, lead and mentor. In many crews, the Guide leads a short session under the stars before he leaves. The staff at our last staffed camp led a short session under the stars that emphasized the team building, the importance of character, and the Philmont experience all with large doses of Leave No Trace.”

I’m one of those who remains skeptical about the “Philmont experience” – scouts from my son’s troop would do all of the above and much more on troop planned backpacking trips in the Sierra (or other locales). But the troop was strongly focused on being boy led and on outdoor activities. Also they have/had a lot of experienced adults that knew enough to step back and let the scouts make mistakes and learn from them – not always easy when you’re 3 days from the nearest trail head.

Leave the decision to the scouts – if they want to go to Philmont – you go to Philmont. Often kids that age don’t know enough about the options in front of them. Lots of resources available online (pictures, trip reports, youtube videos) to educate them and then let them decide.

For troops that have a history of longer term backpacking or other adventures they can have older scouts (even aged out scouts) do a short presentation of their experience. The scouts always pay far more attention to older scouts than to “adults”.

No matter what you choose being out hiking beats anything else.

 

[Bruce Tolley]

“Leave the decision to the scouts – if they want to go to Philmont – you go to Philmont.”

“The scouts always pay far more attention to older scouts than to “adults”.”

I agree.

If the Scouts want to do a 50 miler or mountaineering on Mt Hood or an uncurated experience, do that.

Coming to Philmont having done a lot of wilderness backpacking, I was also very skeptical. I would not have gone since I wanted my son to have more experience backpacking without me. But was recruited to be a leader.  The Scouts had a great time. There is a place for curated adventures.

YIS

[Brad P]

The scouts should make the decision. The difficult part is educating them on options.

When I asked our age-eligible scouts if they wanted to do Philmont or Northern Tier (we did Sea Base this year) in 2019, I got a deer in the headlights look. Our troop hadn’t done high adventure in several years, so none of the scouts knew the differences.

I tell them to do their own research and tried to explain as best as I could (I hadn’t done any of them, myself). They chose Philmont for 2019, so that’s what we’re doing.

Soon we’ll have to survey age-eligible scouts for 2020. The Triple Crown might be nice, but presenting some of these other options would also be good.

The activities is what is supposed to set Philmont apart. While backpacking through places like the Wind River Range or other amazing places appeals to me, many scouts wouldn’t appreciate “just” doing the journey.

[Pedestrian]

“While backpacking through places like the Wind River Range or other amazing places appeals to me, many scouts wouldn’t appreciate “just” doing the journey.”

How do you know?

I hear this thrown about all the time especially by adults who themselves rarely get outside and backpack……

A lot of troops really don’t have much of an outdoor program where the scouts are exposed to a series of gradually more challenging backpacking and other outdoor trips. It takes at least a few years of sustained trips before you have the trained AND experienced adults who can support such an outdoor program. Absent that you get the standard “the scouts don’t like backpacking so we go to Philmont”.

I’m speaking mostly about troops out West especially in California where we have access to a lot of backpacking and other outdoor activities almost year round. I know troops in places like Indiana and other parts of the midwest where they have far fewer opportunities close by.

 

[Bruce Kolkebeck]

Our Troop has sent 15 crews on 6 different years since 2000. Philmont is a scout pilgrimage our Troop makes hopefully at least once in a scout’s career. Kids don’t remember what they did for their Eagle project but they do remember Philmont with fond memories.

I am an Appalachian Thru hiker and have hiked in Alaska and many trails in the east. Philmont is nothing like a thru hike. It is something an amateur will remember forever. Just enough of a hike to be a challenge with enough support to make it practical. Its getting expensive. This might make us curtail our excursions to Philmont. Sea Base and Bectel have little challenge. Boundary Waters has little activities. We just found Philmont to be the highlight of a scout’s career. Hope we get to go again. You may bump us off the list if you go in 2020.

 

 

 

[Brad P]

How do you know?

I hear this thrown about all the time especially by adults who themselves rarely get outside and backpack……

Just from observing our troop and knowing not every scout is the same. We’re not a big troop and we won’t even fill every slot on our 1 crew.

Our current scoutmaster, who is transitioning out with me, gulp!, taking over, wasn’t big on backpacking. We’ve mostly done car camping, so this scout year will be a new experience for many of our scouts.

We have an intro backpacking trip as our first event of the scout year using the A.T. We’re also scheduling a few extra shakedown trips throughout the scout year that are in addition to the monthly activities. These will be for the Philmont interested scouts plus, if there’s room, others who are capable. These will be used toward the Backpacking merit badge, too.

Since these trips won’t have Philmont activities, we’ll see how different scouts respond.

Philmont is a rite of passage to many scouts. It’s an accomplishment they’ll always remember. That HA camp in Montana looks awesome. I’ll definitely send the troop a link to it and ask them to consider it for 2020.

[Bruce Kolkebeck]

I don’t expect young kids to come to our Troop expecting to go to Philmont unless their siblings have done so already.  Most have never heard of the place. Philmont was something I dreamed about as a scout and our unit never went. As a city kid it just sounded like walking on the moon for me.

We start selling Philmont the day after our crews get back. Our Troop has a board with all the treks, itineraries, and crew pictures on it from the last 18 years. There is always a film presentation we show the parents and new kids about our last adventure. Philmonters are looked up too by the younger scouts. When a flash flood blocked our route out of a valley a few years ago the Philmonters packed much of the younger kids stuff out so they could complete a longer route out. They are in separate patrols and are viewed as salty veterans by the younger kids.

We have a tradition. I’m sure it will end someday but we try to get all of our kids at least one opportunity to go. If I waited for the kids to decide to go I believe it would never happen. It takes two meetings to decide on a menu for the next trip. We have leaders and kids who show no interest in doing anything like this and stay home but I have families that have come to our BECAUSE we have this tradition of having an outdoor program with Philmont as the pinnacle. I hope our Philmont tradition will continue. Cost and fires may be the end of it. But I’ll keep plugging away at it.

Bruce Kolkebeck

[Brad P]

Well, we do have to go with the whole Boy Led thing, but it’s not possible to lead if they lack information.

We do put some restrictions on the decision. For example, since we just got back from Sea Base, we’re not doing that one for a few years. I think it’s important to get exposure to different experiences during a scout’s time in the troop and allow for the different preferences. We’re not big enough to do multiple HA trips in the same year. Heck, we’re going to struggle to have enough adults to do summer camp and Philmont next year.

I’m sure my bias toward Philmont over Northern Tier came out somewhat when I presented those 2 options for 2019. No apology there. Still, the age-eligible scouts voted for Philmont and the vote wasn’t close.

[Bruce Kolkebeck]

I don’t mean to hijack this thread, but why do you prefer Philmont over Boundary Waters? I am going to have to present the alternative if we get bumped. I think I know why but I’d like to hear from someone who’s been.

Thanks,

 

BK

[Brad P]

I personally just prefer backpacking over canoeing.

[Jim Colten]

Philmont vs Northern Tier?

I’ve been to Philmont just  twice but have slept a good 3 digit number of nights in the BWCAW where NT operates … but never through NT (our troop has access to gear and knowledge to plan their own).

Both are attractive trips but they are obviously very different places..  There are no “staffed camps” in the BWCAW so the “program activities” will depend on your “Charlie” (guide).

I’m just pleased I didn’t have to choose one or the other.

[Charles L]

I understand, and somewhat agree with, the “let the Scouts choose.”  But I’m from Hawai’i, the outlay in terms of vacation and funds is a bit much, particularly after having the whole thing getting cancelled a week before we’re supposed to fly out.  If I lived on the mainland, that’d be different, but “price of paradise.”

A lot of our planning and prepping didn’t work out ideally, but it would have been ok if Philmont had been available.  When the trek was cancelled, it got complicated.  Two different visions of what the trip was about had evolved, and ultimately caused some hard feelings that make me more conservative in my planning.

The alternate trip that I took worked out pretty good, and allowed for a lot of flexibility, and a greater amount of self-determination.  It doesn’t sound like Philmont would be a better option for us.  Different fits for different folks.

-Charles

 

[Pedestrian]

On the topic of wilderness outings for boy scouts….I came across this gem from some one I admire greatly – Aldo Leopold:

“People who have never canoed a wild river, or who have done so only with a guide in the stern, are apt to assume that novelty, plus healthful exercise, account for the value of the trip. I thought so too, until I met two college boys on the Flambeau. …

The elemental simplicities of wilderness travel were thrills not only because of their novelty, but because they represented complete freedom to make mistakes. …

Perhaps every youth needs an occasional wilderness trip, in order to learn the meaning of this particular freedom.”

More at: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/960692-people-who-have-never-canoed-a-wild-river-or-who

In my mind taking scouts to Philmont (a curated experience at best…..almost a Disneyland at worst) rather than a typical wilderness outing is depriving scouts of that experience of that “particular freedom”.

 

 

 

 

[Bob Shuff]

Depriving scouts of their freedom by taking them to Philmont? I wish more people thought like that and then I could get a slot and take a crew in 2019.  ;)

[Wilson M]

@Charles,

There’s a lot of great info already on here, and I dare say y’all may have already made your minds up. However, from a former ranger (2009) and participant (2001) and someone who just moved from Hawaii :(  Philmont is absolutely worth going to.

It sounds like yall were incredibly well prepared before the fires/cancellation. The “Philmont Magic” though lies in the experience that the group has together, with the scouts leading the way. The way y’all describe the “split” that occurred between your troop with most going to Colorado- I’d offer that Philmont would make the perfect middle ground in high adventure.

The adults can plan to block off the 14 days to travel from HNL to Cimarron, and the kids are still able to choose a very difficult itinerary (#30-35, w/ time in the Valle Vidal) if they want too, without having to mess with all the expedition planning aspects until arriving at base camp. Or they can choose a much easier one with several stopover days in a staff camp for fishing/exploring.

To specifically answer what makes Philmont unique: it’s a series of scout camps offering many different activities and old west history, all connected together with backpacking as a vehicle to get from one activity to the next. Unlike hiking the Bob in MT, you probably won’t routefind or bushwhack too much and the trails are extremely well maintained and marked. Unlike hiking in an NP or along the CT though, there’s cool activities to experience or explore around each camp at the end of each hiking day. It’s not just about backpacking/camping. The adults facilitate the travel there/back and are a last line of defense for the scouts’ safety, but the program is set for them to make all the decisions once they step off the bus in base camp.

Finally, the last unique factor I’d add is the staff is incredible. You’ll have the most interaction with the rangers and camp staff, but there are hundreds more seasonal staff who come together each May with the common goal of making sure each crew has the best outdoor experience of their lives. Not only are they incredibly giving, the staff are incredibly impressive folks, musicians, historians, athletes, service academy students, etc. I couldn’t think of a more inspirational group of folks to be around in any other backpacking/outdoor environment.

Hope this helps. I’d highly advise some warmup trips within Hawaii too. Kalalau (once re-opened) is amazing, so is backpacking through the Haleakala crater. Waimanu valley is still on my list. I’m traveling to Rainier to do the WT in two weeks, but would trade that permit in a heartbeat to go be a ranger again at Philmont. It truly is the pinnacle of scouting.

Aloha,

Wilson

[Bruce Kolkebeck]

I would like to thank all of you for bringing this up. Ryan’s backpacking light Philmont forum is the only place I get to ask questions about Philmont and expect some honest feedback. I haven’t found that much place else.

 

BK

[Charles L]

@wm4480

I highly recommend Waimanu.  From my last hike over there, circa July 1st, two weeks before we were scheduled for Philmont:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/vjYksLwgDxH4e4T98

That was an overnighter, which I do not recommend, it’s not fun.  I do a lot of odd/weird endurance things, so over that Sat/Sun my buddy Jeff and I did that hike, I did the whole thing in a fasted state (water only), it was pretty interesting.  We went from the Waipio lookout, so it was about 18 miles, probably more than the 7K ft elevation gain listed assuming you start in Waipio valley.  Jeff ended up losing a toe nail.  I felt great, but it doesn’t leave you a lot of time to appreciate the valley.

I think in my Philmont planning I should have considered the possibility of Philmont getting cancelled, and established an alternate plan from the get go.  I’m not sure that would have worked out in the end, we diverged into two groups with very different levels of experience, but maybe it would have motivated everyone to prepare better.  We’d started out planning to do a trek somewhere in the “rugged” category, but with such diversity in preparation as we had, downgraded that to “challenging,” knowing that one way or another it would work out. Then post-cancellation, we couldn’t quite nail a trek that would meet everyone’s abilities reasonably and still be safe.  Next time we have to emphasize training as a more solid requirement.

-Charles

[Pedestrian]

Interesting trip report – thanks for sharing! I’m also into fasted hikes and do my weekly long hike (10+ miles, significant elevation change) always fasted. The one allowance I’ve made recently is the ingestion of a small amount of water with salt and magnesium citrate powder to prevent cramps on hikes longer than 4 hours.

 

“Next time we have to emphasize training as a more solid requirement.”

In my experience this was especially true for the adults more than the scouts. Most scouts in our troop were pretty active in school or other organized sports and worked out regularly. With a few tune-up hikes with full packs and a couple of 2-3 night backpacking trips they were ready for multi-day wilderness trips. Many adults either do not work out regularly or overestimate their fitness – in their minds they are still 18 or 19 while their bodies can’t escape their 40 or 50 year old selves. Adult fitness and training were always a big focus of our prep for the 50+ mile wilderness trips our troop would do.

More recently I hear from some of our area troops that many scouts are apt to be couch potatoes and troops struggle to get them into reasonable shape……..

 

 

 

 

[Brad P]

I know what you mean about the training. Our trained adult leaders are probably OK, but if a parent is our third adult, I’m not sure who that would be. I did half an hour on the stairmaster today and did a pretty strenuous 8 mile hike in Shenandoah National Park last Friday with maybe 1/3 what my Philmont pack will be.

Our CC has instructed me to have a contingency plan for our trip next year. My first big concern is being able to change our flight or get a refund on that. I did our Sea Base trip this year, and I failed to see what would happen with our flight if our trip was canceled. Fortunately, it worked out.

[Chris K]

@scout3801

I recently met a scoutmaster from Texas and Philmont came up in conversation. He scoffed at the place, saying “we take our boys for two weeks through the Weminuche, that’s a real mountain experience.”

That opinion was expressed earlier in this thread and, if you’re looking for a pure wilderness backpacking experience, is surely true. But that misses the point. Philmont impresses on everyone that there’s more to our relationship with the natural world. It’s part backpacking trip, summer camp, outdoor leadership school and history class. Depending on where in the world you’re coming from, it can feel challenging and even exotic (I went from Ohio). Scouts don’t necessarily feel like their hands are being held, and over many interactions with staff and a range of activities, they come away with a broader understanding of how many generations and cultures have used and lived on that piece of earth. This flows really well into LNT practices, and preserving the place for future generations. It takes a wilderness backpacking trip and puts it into a bigger context. It’s really well executed. It’s FUN.

Yes, compared to taking a small group on a loop through a big wilderness, the staffed camps, long waitlists, thousands of participants and relatively not-too-remote landscape will make Philmont look like Disney World. But knowing what you’re getting into, have you taken your kids to Disney World and regretted it?

[M B]

Philmont……is backpacking 101.

With a safety net mostly

Its the program actvities that make it good.

Not the backpacking.

 

[Matt Dirksen]

I just asked my son out of the blue (who just earned his Eagle) what his best time in Scouting was.

Without any hesitation he said: “Philmont”.

Just how many other kids would offer the same answer to the same question? I suspect that the reason why Philmont has persisted over the years is due to the fact that many kids leave that place changed in ways they can’t quite articulate at the time of their departure. Yet, the experience leaves a deep imprint on them.

I know it certainly did the first time I went in ’88. After a few more times as an adult, I’d still go back in a heartbeat if I could.

Sometimes, the answer to something can never easily be broken down into specific reasons. I will offer something special that does seem to stick out, even if it’s a tiny thing: In order to get the Philmont patch, one must participate in a little bit of trail service.

In our world of “taking in”,  I believe that simple act of “giving back” is something which helps the kids keep their experiences deeply real. That their experience is not only for their enjoyment, but for those in the future enjoy as well. While I believe service to others is a significant part of Scouting (and certainly the OA), to have that element wrapped in two weeks of Philmont is particularly sweet.

YIS,

Matt

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