Too light and miserable

[Tracey A]

Hi all, have been lurking and reading for some time and just took a semi-failed trip to the San Juans in Colorado and could use some help. After a trip to the Winds in Wyo last summer carrying close to 40 pounds, I came back and started researching lighter options. I now may have gone too light. ? Maybe, I don’t know. Am looking for suggestions on where to add for comfort, believe it or not!

I was hoping to fast pack it, but the terrain was such that there was no running more than about 10 steps. We hiked fast, as fast as possible given the situation anyway. I had a Six Moons Flight 30 pack with 20# all in, an Enlightened Equipment 850DT 20degree quilt, Neo Air pad, and Zpacks Hexamid Solo Plus tent.

The first issue was that the pack ate my collar bones. I mean I could not touch them until yesterday, 6 days later. I was in some pretty significant distress from that alone. Then I FROZE at night. I wore every single piece of clothing I had, plus used an emergency mylar blanket. That cannot be a 20 degree quilt, since it was high 30’s at night. That tent lets in a lot of breeze from the mesh along the perimeter too.

FWIW, I did do a test trip locally. The pack was a little lighter, and it did bother my shoulders some, but not nearly so much as this time. The quilt was a little chilly then, too, but not unbearable. I knew I would have more clothes on this trip.

My takeaway is that if I want to run, I need to carry 15 pounds or less, but if I am going to hike and carry 20#, I need to be more comfortable, so I may as well add a pound or two.

I am supposing I need to go back to a framed pack? Traditional style sleeping bag? What do you guys think and suggest? I still want to be as light as possible, but…

[David Thomas]

A “20-degree” bag (or quilt) not keeping someone warm in the 30’s isn’t unexpected.  The ratings are optimistic and people sleep warmer and colder than other people.  At home, are you typically under more covers than other people?

The Neo Air Trekker pad has an r-value of only 2.0.  That’s definitely on the light side for temps near freezing and also when using a quilt (when all the insulation below you coming from the pad).  The Neo Air All-Season has an r-value of 4.9 for example.

And I found I had a bit of learning curve with quilts.  It took a while for my brain stem to learn to stay under it and, if I got out from under it, to wiggle back under with fully waking.  Much as I once had to learn to stay within the 20-inch width of my sleeping pad at all and kind of like the first night of a trip where I settle back into that mode.

Did you have a warm hat on?  Anything around your neck?  A balaclava or a ruff is likely the biggest bang per ounce for night-time warmth.

The learning curve thing will come.  The quilt sounds like it just wasn’t warm enough for you in those conditions.   Especially given that your pad was lightweight.

Many of us write the weight of our gear right on the gear in sharpie.  It’s also good to research the r-value of each of your pads and write that down on them.  It’s easy to just grab a sleeping pad, or base our selection totally on weight and volume but that’s kind of like going on a bear hunt and grabbing a .22 because it doesn’t weigh as much as a .338

[Tracey A]

Thanks, David!  My pad is the Neo Air Xlite with an R value of 3.2. I was wearing a hat, plus had the hoods up on all my shirts and puffy coat. I tend to sleep hot at home and have been comfortable camping in a regular double walled tent in a 20 degree traditional mummy bag on my insulated QCore pad at similar temps and altitude. I have to figure out how to split the difference, I guess! Really like your suggestion of writing weights/info on the equipment.

 

[Paul S.]

A lot of people seem to go for the minimum on the pad and hope their quilt makes up for the warmth.  I’ve used a NeoAir All Season at freezing with a 30 EE degree quilt and all my clothes and stayed warm as long as I kept the drafts at bay.  I was right at the limit of the quilt so if I had gone light on the pad insulation I’m sure I would have been too cold.  I learned that night I had outgrown my quilt and needed a wider quilt so I did get drafts when I turned on my side.  Even if it wide, it’s something you have to watch for vs. a mummy bag.

I’m also a man; in general add 10 degrees for women.  E.g. consider your 20 F quilt as really a 30 F.  Ratings aren’t as standard as you might think, so if your 20 F mummy was conservative and the 20 F quilt was optimistic you’ll be off by 10 degrees or more.  Was your mummy bag a women’s bag?  If so, they add that 10 degrees of warmth to make it a women’s 20.

[Paul S.]

You should think of backpacks like you do shoes.  Just because it has all the features, looks, etc. if it doesn’t fit just right it will cause a problem.  Everyone is different too, so what fits for one doesn’t apply to another.  Just like a nagging little tightness or sizing issue on a shoe can cause blisters or worse, a poor fitting pack will cause problems like you learned.  It could be something you can fix by adjusting the straps or maybe the pack doesn’t fit you well and you need a new pack.

There are many lightweight framed packs, which are more versatile for longer days, bear can zones, or trips long water carries.  Some popular framed lightweight packs/brands (lightest to heaviest): KS series packs, Zpacks Arc series, the larger SWD packs, , HMG packs, Osprey Exos.

If you want to run however, it seems 15 lbs. is the upper limit of comfort (no experience here, just based on reading threads about running packs on BPL).  Again, this assumes your pack fits you well.

 

[Kate Anthony]

I sleep really cold. David’s suggestion of a higher R value pad is a good one. I now use a Neoair Xtherm and it helps tremendously. I would also suggest eating before you go to bed and removing damp clothing. Hot water bottles can be a great help too. I had a problem with sore collarbones when I first started hiking with my ULA CDT. I cut up a sheepskin seat belt cover and added a little extra padding over my collarbones. I’ve broken it in or made adjustments to the way I pack it because I don’t need the padding anymore.

[Andrew Srna]

Even though not advertised for running, i used to run with my gg kumo loaded light, with pretty minimal bounce, and the nice wide shoulder straps softened the blow on the shoulders, i didnt use the waistbelt that it came with, just tightened down the shoulder straps, moved with my body well.  The ula fastpack looks nice too, but havent tried it personally. As far as sleeping try a thinlight pad under your air mat, if that doesnt help, get a katabatic  quilt, ratings vary quite a bit between mfg. You may just need a warmer quilt, this is one place i dont skimp, if it could be cold take a warm enough quilt.

[Lester Moore]

+1 on a light framed pack. If total pack weight is pushing near 20 pounds I almost always take my framed pack instead of my lighter frameless pack. And +1 on finding a pack that fits your particular body and needs best.

That tent lets in a lot of breeze from the mesh along the perimeter too

Minimalist tents and tarps let in a lot more breeze hold in less heat than a full blown two-walled tent. Therefore, a warmer sleeping pad and/or a warmer quilt can be used to offset the lack of heat retention from a tarp. It’s a lot lighter to carry a 10F quilt and a tarp (3 ounces more down than a 20F quilt) than it is carrying a 20F quilt and a double-walled tent (a pound or two heavier). Alternatively, you can add a full bivy sack or hybrid bug/bivy (EE Recon bivy) or add a bathtub floor to your tarp (Zpacks Ponch/Groundsheet for example, serves a rain gear too) to help cut down on some of the drafts under your tarp.

 

[Matt Dirksen]

 

1. Pack: as others have said, you certainly need to try packs out on like you would a good pair of shoes. Looks like the Flight 30 doesn’t have any means to divert any weight to the hip belt, and you had it “maxed out” at 20lbs. Therefore the pack was likely both sagging from it’s own weight, and pulling back on your shoulders much more than riding on your hips. Beyond trying on several different packs, I’d recommend one where 20 pounds in in the middle of it’s weight range.
2. Quilt:+2 to “adding R value”. My family and I were camping/hiking around Mt. Elbert in mid July, where every night we experienced temps in the mid 30’s. My wife was using a 40d EE quilt, and was toasty warm. She was using an old school T-rest which likely has an R value of at least 4 or 5 (they didn’t test them back in the 90’s). She also considers herself to be a cold sleeper. I, on the other hand, was sleeping in a 50d EE quilt, but was on top of a 1st gen NeoRest with an 1/8″ ccf pad. I wore a down vest & hood, just to keep myself barely warm enough, and I’m normally a “warm sleeper”. In hindsight, I would have been fine if I had packed a thicker pad. Period. I honestly believe most folks grossly underestimate the importance of a highly insulative pad. And it doesn’t help that the listed R values from most manufacturers are not independently verified, and subject to scrutiny (especially the X-lite series.)  While it seems that the X-Therms are getting good reviews for their improved “warmth”, I believe that adding a 1/4″ ccf pad to your Xlite (or sandwich the Xlite with two 1/8″ pads) would help significantly. 1/8″ pads are easily fordable as well, giving you options for creating more rigidity inside a frameless pack.
3. Tent: While breezy inside, I believe your sleeping system should have kept you warmer, regardless of what is protecting you. A more traditional “tent” may have added a few degrees to the interior air temp, and kept the wind out. But that assurance would have added a couple pounds to your kit, and certainly required a larger pack.

I’d probably work on the pack and sleeping system first before switching to a different tent.

[Five Star]

Tracey, pardon the presumption but I’m presuming you’re female.

Women in general sleep “colder” than men, and IME fit women carry less insulation than the average person.  Both work against keeping you warm.  My wife is 5’9″ 120 lbs. and pretty fit….and pretty lean.  In shoulder season, she needs a 10 degree mummy bag to stay warm.  With that said, your pad was probably the main culprit.  I have been hammered twice with an inadequate R-rated pad and literally felt the heat of my body sucking into the ground.

Also, search for a pack with better shoulder strap padding.  It sounds like you’re pack weight is really light, and many of us here have added a pound or three back after hitting “rock bottom” with our pack weights.  It’s all about finding a balance of what’s comfortable FOR YOU.

I’ll be in the Winds in 3+ weeks and will be using a Katabatic Flex 22 degree quilt and a 4+R pad FWIW.

[Paul McLaughlin]

Just how did the pack eat your collarbones? By which I mean, bruising style, as you get with just plain pressure, or rubbing raw style, as you get with too much movement or too rough a strap. different solutions for different kinds of damage.

But as to general information, if a pack hurts your shoulders then a few possibilities exist. If the pack does not fit well, it can be putting too much pressure in specific spots, or you can have rubbing, abrasion, rawness from straps that move around too much. If the pack does not have enough structure to transfer weight to the hipbelt, or does not have a hipbelt, or has an inadequate hipbelt, then your load my be too much for you to carry comfortable in that pack. Individuals differ considerably in the weight they can comfortably carry on their shoulders. I don’t like to carry anything much over 10-12 lbs without a hipbelt myself; others are comfortable with substantially heavier loads. The tricky part is that it’s not easy to be sure a pack will work for you without trying it on the trail. years ago, I used to sell packs, in several mountain shops, and fitting packs to each person is part science and part art. Most of the time I was successful getting a good fit for people, but occasionally someone would come back complaining about the comfort of the pack, even though we both thought it was a good fit and it felt good walking around the store with weight in it. I’ve also made my own packs for many years. So for myself I have it dialed in as far as fit, and I’ve been successful making packs for family and friends and having them fit well. But it’s not easy to get right. I would confidently say that the pack you have pack is the wrong pack for you, or has the wrong size harness and/or belt. Given the severity of the issues you describe it is not even close to a good fit.

[Larry De La Briandais]

I couldn’t possibly carry 20 lbs with a frameless pack.  But I hate frameless packs so I can’t really comment on the pack problems fairly.

” I honestly believe most folks grossly underestimate the importance of a highly insulative pad.”

Yes, absolutely!  I used a Big Agnes IAC (R 4.1) with a consistent overnight temp of 25.  I had a synth quilt rated at 27.  I was cold with just the IAC.  I had brought a 1/4 closed cell foam pad (the cheap blue pad) and when I placed it ON TOP of the IAC I was almost too warm.  It made a HUGE difference.  I intentionally started out with it under the pad to see how well it worked.  I found it amazingly warmer when place on top of the air pad.  And it’s cheap and light.  ;^)

 

[David Thomas]

“a 1/4 closed cell foam pad . . .  placed it ON TOP. . . made a HUGE difference.”

An air film, in no wind, adds almost R-1.  The air film on each side of the 1/4″ CCF is pretty stagnant, since it’s close to the inflatable pad and under your quilt.  So you not only get the R-value of the 1/4″ of CCF, but also of the air films on each side of it.

I suspect the 1/4″ CCF does more good, thermally, on top of your main pad.  OTOH, it clearly has benefits below the pad as puncture protection (plus some, perhaps less effective, thermal insulation).

Anyone try sandwiching a SUL pad between two 1/4″ CCFs?  Seems like a cheap, “one-gun” (with variable ammo loading, to stretch the analogy painfully) solution for many conditions.

 

[Larry De La Briandais]

Puncture protection wasn’t one of my concerns.  I only wanted to test the thermal properties.  However, I did try under first hoping it would work just as well as on top, in the hopes of gaining that puncture protection.  It didn’t work.  But my pad is still intact, so…  ;^)

One of the biggest lessons I learned is that there is a big difference between a low of 30 and a constant temp of 30 throughout the night.  I was quite surprised at the difference.

 

[Bob Moulder]

Anyone try sandwiching a SUL pad between two 1/4″ CCFs?  Seems like a cheap, “one-gun” (with variable ammo loading, to stretch the analogy painfully) solution for many conditions.

That is actually not a bad idea, especially when camping on snow or moist, frozen ground that is a huge heat sink.

If using one CCF with an air mat, absolutely agree with CCF on top.

I have a GG thinlight (1/8″) and it would be interesting to test with a torso length of that on bottom and my usual 3/8″ CCF on top.

You will likely get a chance to test before most of us, however.   :^)

[Tracey A]

You all are so helpful! I really appreciate the feedback! And yes, I am a female, 5’5″ 120#, a trail and mountain runner and 55 years old with hot flashes, so sleeping cold is not usually an issue!

Seems we all agree I need a new well-fitting framed pack–certainly that’s a no-brainer. I went to REI yesterday and got fitted with a few and didn’t really find one that felt great. There are a few other mountain shops here to try that have other brands. I am hesitant to buy another one online. The Six Moons I used has an adjustable yoke and yes, it does have a substantial waist strap. There’s only so much you can do running around your living room with it full and I’m sure with more experience I may have known it wasn’t going to work. The straps on it are light like a running pack, which is part of the problem, though I did stuff my gloves and hat under them during the hike and that didn’t help much. The weight just doesn’t get down to my hips, so essentially, it felt like a small child was hanging on my back with his fingers clawed into my collar bones.

Sounds like most of you think my pad was more the problem than the quilt. ? I have to say, I think I am just not a quilt person. I thrash around a bit and am a side sleeper and think I might just prefer a bag. It’s all going to take a bit more fiddling I suppose, fortunately there is some time left in the mountains before the snow flies.

[JCH]

Tracey,  re: Backpack.  Most reputable outdoor retailers with a knowledgable and experienced staff should be willing to help you determine the optimal adjustment of your current pack.  If it’s fit can be optimized then you need look no further.  If it cannot, you will know for certain that you need to find another, and that same shop will be happy to fit you :)  In my early backpacking experience, finding someone who really knew and understood how a pack should be fit (and packed) was critical.  Also, when backpack shopping, consider taking all your gear with you and having the staff help you load the candidate pack with the actual load you will be carrying.  You may be surprised at how differently each pack carries.

You say this is your first UL pack. Unless you have experienced a properly fitted and loaded UL pack and know how it should feel, buying online will likely be a crap shoot.  Most cottage manufacturer are happy to have you try their packs on at home, with your load, and accept returns if it doesn’t work for you.

re: Quilt.  I too am a side sleeper who “readjusts” probably 10 times a night and I love my quilt.  I think the fit for quilt users is much more important than for a bag.  Of utmost importance is to have a quilt that is wide enough.  This is particularly true for side sleepers.  You don’t say if you are using the straps EE provides (I think a properly sized quilt does not require them) but if you are and get gaps and drafts at your sides, the quilt is likely too narrow.

[Francis DeRoos]

+1 <span class=”profile-data”>@kanthony</span>  re: eating before sleeping.

Food is one of the heaviest things we put into our packs and, early on, iI skimped here trying to keep my pack weight down.  The result was more cold nights than I would have liked.  Now I have found that adding a ‘nighttime’ bar to eat just before sleeping really reduced the nights I wake up cold.

[Matthew / BPL]

I’m a rotisserie-style side sleeper and I love quilts because I don’t get all twisted up. I don’t use any of straps. My main quilt is extra wide which makes it easy to get a nice seal against my pad. YMMV.

[Ben C]

Do you have the quilt snapped at the neck and cinched?  This makes a huge difference.  A friend of mine had his qult for months before he realized the snap was even there.

I use a 1/8 inch foam on my Xlite.  It is warm to 20 degrees anyway.

Everyone is different on packs.  I can carry 25 or more pounds frameless with no issues.  It doesn’t work for others.  Find something comfortable.  It’s hard to know if it’s frameless pack or that specific frameless pack until you try something different.

+1 on a snack before bed.

Pitch your shelter near a wind break if possible.  But I have had my 20 degree EE quilt in the 20s in the wind in the same tent and been fine.  Some people just sleep colder.

[Kenneth Keating]

What were you using for a hat?  Using a down balaclava can help substantially in warmth when using a quilt.  I’ve gone from slightly cold to quite warm just by wearing a down balaclava.

Switch to a Neoair Xtherm pad, it’ll be much warmer than your current pad.

[Tracey A]

I wasn’t wearing a down hat, but did have an OR winter beanie with my down jacket hood over it.

And yes, I did have all the straps and snaps shut on the quilt.

Seems like by the time I add a down baklava/beanie, a CCF pad, make sure all the straps, snaps and pulls are closed, I just may as well have a bag and hunker down in it and be done with it! I’ll have to sit down and do some numbers on weights and prices, I suppose, but I just don’t think it should be that hard to stay warm at night! lol.

 

[Larry De La Briandais]

I could be wrong, but without a warmer pad I don’t think a sleeping bag will be any warmer.

 

[Tracey A]

“I could be wrong, but without a warmer pad I don’t think a sleeping bag will be any warmer.”- Larry

Well that’s kinda what I was asking–is it the quilt or the pad or both that need to be switched out?

[Lester Moore]

I just may as well have a bag and hunker down in it and be done with it!

There’s definitely nothing wrong with a mummy bag and plenty of experienced folks prefer them, especially in temps near 20F or lower. If possible, borrow a friend’s mummy of comparable loft height to your quilt (as measured with a ruler) and see if you get cold as easily with it, or if you prefer it or the quilt regarding sleep positions and fuss factor (ie dealing with a zipper and a fixed position hood).

As for weight differences, there may be only a few ounces difference between a mummy bag and a “comparable” quilt, balaclava and strap option. One big benefit of the quilt system is flexibility and multi-use functions. The straps can be left at home for warm weather trips. The balaclava (down or synthetic, such as the EE Hoodlum) can be worn with any item of clothing when extra warmth is needed. Aside from that, quilt versus mummy comes down in large part to personal preference. Quilts do require a little more learning curve than a mummy to dial in for maximum warmth IMHO.

The CCF pad would apply either way with no effect on weight – it’s more to augment your sleeping pad regardless of what mummy or quilt you decide on.

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