- Nov 14, 2017 at 9:01 pm #3502140
- Weinstein: Multiple credible complaints of sexual harassment – Fired.
- Weiner: Multiple credible complaints of sexual harassment – Jailed.
- Spacey: Multiple credible complaints of sexual harassment – Fired.
- Louis CK: Multiple credible complaints of sexual harassment – Fired.
- Roy Moore: Multiple complaints of sexual harassment of minors – Leading in the polls for Senate.
If I’m one of those top 4 guys, I’d want my job back. What’s going on here?Nov 15, 2017 at 12:41 am #3502160
Too bad companies aren’t democracies! /sNov 15, 2017 at 2:27 am #3502193
Hmmm… Chaff thread list showed 3 posts (not counting this one) and Michael L being the last poster. But clicking here, I see only two posts and no Michael L. Why is that?Nov 15, 2017 at 2:52 am #3502203
Michael is bannedby the moderatorsNov 15, 2017 at 2:55 am #3502206
Michael can post, but we can’t see it : )Nov 15, 2017 at 5:30 am #3502220
I see. How long has it been? I hope he gets unbanned…Nov 16, 2017 at 4:26 pm #3502402
Chuck Todd asked Amy Klobuchar “what about Bill?”. She dodged question and talked about what congress should do to change rules to prevent sexual misconduct in the future. He asked again. She acknowledged that Trump is legitimately president and talked again about changing congress rules. In other words, let’s not relitigate the past but focus on the future.
Barabara Boxer said she gave a speech early in her career which went over well. Afterwards the male leader commended her, then said he’d like to “associate with her”. Another male said he’d like to associate with her too. Obvious sexual innuendo but you would have had to have been there. Boxer said her face turned red. Afterwards, her mentor didn’t understand, thought that was complimentary. It’s not obvious what’s disrespectful, but if women don’t appreciate men making innuendos about having sex, then we shouldn’t do that. We need more examples about just what’s okay and what’s not.
It seems like there should be more focus on just what behavior is not acceptable, and preventing that in the future. Not so much punishing people for doing it in the past.
Not that it isn’t a good thing for Kevin Spacey and Bill Cosby to be at the least banished. You Alabamians vote for Roy Moore? I don’t quite get that but if that’s what you want for senator, I guess that’s your decision.
Trump was Republican tactics taken to the next level. Roy Moore is taking it one level higher. Any news story he doesn’t like he calls “fake news”. The “elites” in Washington just don’t like him… Maybe this is at an exaggerated enough level enough people will now see it and be more skeptical.Nov 16, 2017 at 5:13 pm #3502407
“Any news story he doesn’t like he calls “fake news”.
Couple thoughts on how we got to this bad spot…
1. Every society produces an idiot or three – but in this case, we’ve got tens of millions of Americans willingly (or even eagerly) writing off news that they don’t like as “fake news”. That’s bad.
2. Ever since the 60’s, I’ve encountered time and again lamentations about the dumbing down of our schools and our society. And something about “infantilism”. Perhaps we are finally seeing the accumulative effects?
3. Could Trump have gotten away with fluffing off Walter Cronkite back in the 60’s and 70’s? I don’t think so. But since then, our media has been mixing news with gossip and sensation – where ‘news’ have morphed into infotainment. If the pros don’t take their profession and themselves seriously — perhaps they have made themselves that much easier to being undermined?
Maybe it’s all tied together – our government, our media/business, our society and ourselves: our collective infantilism has finally produced a full-on man child to be our president?Nov 16, 2017 at 5:34 pm #3502412
“our media has been mixing news with gossip and sensation”
The media relies on ads to make money and viewers watching ads. Sensational stories get more viewers.
Because of technology it’s a lot cheaper to publish. There are many more sources. Conventional income streams for media are drying up. Lots of competition. Many media will go bankrupt. New media will figure out how to make money in this new world.
I don’t think it’s fair to blame the media, it’s just a consequence of technology. Hopefully this will all get sorted out
It would help if politicians didn’t promote any obviously fake story just because it increases their poll numbers in the short run
The more this all is publicized, the easier it will be for us to figure out what’s going onNov 16, 2017 at 8:47 pm #3502452
I really don’t think people are this dumb. Instead, people are this loyal. It’s like when you hear something bad about your favorite sports team. You don’t want to believe it. You accept any denial of it. You stay loyal to your team. For many, the Republican “team” is practically even with their religion “team.” And anything needed to win is just fine.Nov 17, 2017 at 5:19 pm #3502632
Methinks at some point, mindless loyalty –> dumb (as in people not using their brains).
Who is it who said ‘we deserve the government we have’? Maybe not in a brutal dictatorship, but certainly in a democracy?Nov 27, 2017 at 4:35 pm #3504337
What bugs me about this is the focus on identifying culprits and gossiping about them. Media sensationalizing for ad revenue. Politicians politicizing.
It seems like we need to talk about specific behaviors and relative badness. We shouldn’t avoid details because it’s uncomfortable to talk about. We shouldn’t just turn it into a witch hunt.
Putting your hand on someone else’s butt during a picture.
Asking sexual favors of people who depend on you for their career. What if someone occasionally makes ambiguous statements vs frequent aggressive? Sometimes a boss and subordinate get into a relationship, is that okay?
Asking younger people for sexual favors or actually doing it. Sex acts with someone under age should be prosecuted if there’s a case.
Doing sex acts without consent.
Physical injuries like bruises.
If it’s in private, then it can be “he said she said” so not prosecutable. What about if there are many people that have reported the same experience?
Publicly or legally attacking accusers.
If someone is accused, especially of more minor harassment, do they keep doing it? For example, sometimes men don’t realize how traumatic it is for women and they just need to be educated.Nov 28, 2017 at 4:57 pm #3504510
James O’Keefe, again, tried to scam a news organization into reporting fake news
A woman claimed, at age 16, to have had a pregnancy and abortion with Roy Moore. She took it to Washington Post.
If the Washington Post had reported this as real, then it would have put doubt into all the other stories about Roy Moore
James O’Keefe has done this multiple times in the past
Someone else did this with a story about W. A fake document claimed that W was AWOL. Or was it about drunk driving, I forget. The document was reported as real. Then it was determined to be fake so the journalist that reported it was defamed, fired. The whole issue about W going AWOL was then dropped. Except that there is other evidence he actually was AWOL.
So, that is an effective political tactic – if your candidate has done something bad, scam a news organization into a fake report about it, then expose that report as fake, then the whole issue goes away.Nov 28, 2017 at 6:16 pm #3504520
“We must sometimes take blame, women. I really do think that,” she added. “Although it’s awful to say we can’t make ourselves look as attractive as possible without being knocked down and raped.”
Historically, sexual harrasers tried to blame it on the woman for being “too attractive”. And otherwise attacking the woman.
Then the pendulum shifted to not questioning the woman at all. If a woman feels harassed then the man should be punished and banished.
And even discussing this is forbidden.
It seems like we’d be better off discussing the issue in total.Dec 5, 2017 at 3:26 am #3505634
John Hockenberry, the host of The Takeaway was let go for sexual harassment and bullying, although they didn’t give a cause at the time (pre Harvey Weinstein). Hockenberry ran his show like a fiefdom, bullying everyone, badger people to have sex, discriminated against non whites,…
Todd Zwillich was occasional fill in host and now the interim host, was interviewing one of his victims Suki Kim
Kim asked Zwillich some interesting questions, like why hadn’t Zwillick ever spoken up against Hockenberry
Zwillick said he didn’t know about it because he was the fill in host so didn’t spend that much time with Hockenberry
Also, Zwillich was a white male so Hockenberry didn’t bully him, Zwillich enjoyed “white male priveledge”
But Zwillich had an idea what was happening and now regrets not speaking up. In the future he will try to do better.
Kim also complained that management had to have known but didn’t do anything about it. It was a successful show so they didn’t want to screw with it.
Anyway, this sort of discussion is more interesting than who the latest guy is and did they fire him.
This is a societal problem that we all are part of. It’s not obvious what to do about it. It’s much bigger than just firing a bunch of bad guys. Hopefully, we don’t just fire some people, then go back to the way it was and never address the bigger problem.Dec 16, 2017 at 2:39 pm #3507808
wow! A rare woman who harassed men drops out of race.Dec 18, 2017 at 6:13 pm #3508165
Michael FBPL Member
Just to chime in on the complaints of the media, the media is so corporate controlled now, it is not even funny. We have only a few media companies that run everything, the democrats and republicans are all corporate controlled, and therefore the left and right wing media outlets are as well …it is truly sickening.
If any of you want real news, then you have to look to progressive networks and outlets.
Jimmy Doore Show, Humanist Report, Secular Talk, Sam Seder, David Pakman, TYT, Democracy Now, etc.Dec 18, 2017 at 6:23 pm #3508169
Thom HartmannDec 18, 2017 at 7:25 pm #3508184
“If any of you want real news, then you have to look to progressive networks and outlets.”
Only looking to one side’s view of the ‘news’ does not get you ‘real news’, or perhaps I should say balanced, complete news. The far left, far right, mainstream media, etc., all present ‘news’ that is skewed in some manner, especially those at the extremes. All leave out information that won’t support, or even goes against, the message they wish to impart.Feb 18, 2018 at 5:37 pm #3519063
It’s interesting to see how this issue is progressing. Good story:
This lady was violently raped in her past
She had a good friend who supported her in a number of difficult cases
He was accused of workplace inappropriate emails and touching. This was very conflicting to the lady. His actions were not comparable to her violent rape. She was comforted by someone that offered her sympathy because she was conflicted between having a good friend and he was also a sexual harrasser.
She initially supported the resignation of Al Franken, but now has questions about it.
Someone else opined that if an accuser offers a genuine apology to the victims they are possibly redeemable
If they make repeated denials and call the accusers liars they are not redeemable.
Someone like Harvey Weinstein who made many egregious acts is probably not redeemable. Even if he wasn’t still denying and attacking accusers.
Full disclosure – I’m a fan of Al Franken – but he offered genuine apology, resigned when he could have fought it, never denied or accused – deserves to be redeemed.
Bill Clinton – definitely denied and accused. Unclear to me that he ever harassed anyone, mostly they were consensual. One lady accused him of rape, but other times denied that, tied up with political attacks so unclear to me. He should apologize for the denials and accusations and to the lady who accused him of rape even if that’s not how he remembered it but I don’t think he ever has? Somewhere between redemption and not?
Trump – no apology, denials, accusations…Feb 18, 2018 at 8:12 pm #3519080
jeffrey armbrusterBPL Member
@bookLocale: Northern California
People are still kvetching about that dog Bill Clinton viv a vis Monica. Trump? Teflon. I mean ,really–paying off a porn star (or two) for silence about their affair…and not a peep from the same high and might R’s that vilified and continue to vilify Bill.
Remind me how the Christian right is still standing by Trump?Feb 18, 2018 at 8:37 pm #3519086
Rand Paul – “Why are we investigating Republicans?”Feb 18, 2018 at 9:08 pm #3519092
But I don’t think sexual harassment is partisan.
Both parties do it.
On occasion a harasser has been given a pass by members of his own party. Bill Clinton maybe, but that was at a different time when harassment wasn’t recognized like after Weinstein.
Many Democratic supporters of Bill Clinton have changed their mind post Weinstein
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