- Oct 31, 2019 at 7:59 pm #3616726d kBPL Member
Thanks, Ken. That would be great…both things!
On the medical front, we’ve been living vicariously watching “Diagnosis” on Netflix, in the meantime…Nov 1, 2019 at 3:18 pm #3616873
Another factor affecting inflammation and obesity and a bunch of other things is the microbiome
If you eat things like fruits and vegetables, whole grains, nuts, and seeds it encourages good bacteria
If you eat things like sugar and meat it encourages bad bacteria.
The sugar -> bad bacteria mechanism produces a similar result as the sugar -> insulin mechanism. Maybe the reason sugar causes inflammation is more because of the microbiome than insulin.Nov 1, 2019 at 3:35 pm #3616877
Looking at the plot of blood sugar level vs time in the ncbi article:
If you eat three meals close together then the blood sugar level is higher during the day, than if you eat three meals spread out.
But, with the three meals close together you totally miss the last cycle of blood sugar increasing, so average over the whole day is less.
One thought is that it would be even better if you had just one meal a day. Or no meals some days. Maybe those are good TRE strategies.
Another thought is that with TRE, your blood sugar level will be low the rest of the day. That will make you tired which might be a bad thing. But, that’s easy to judge – if you feel too tired then TRE isn’t the best for you.
How do people tolerate fasting on some days? Do they get unacceptably tired?
Is minimizing average blood sugar level really the goal? Or is it just minimizing times when blood sugar is very high? If you just eat a little does your blood sugar level only go up moderately? In this case maybe light snacking during the day would be good???
So many questions…Nov 1, 2019 at 6:23 pm #3616895d kBPL Member
So many questions…
I’ll try some answers, but I don’t know all of them.
We do intermittent “fasting” (actually, limited calories – 500-600) 2 days per week, as well as him doing daily TRE. This after watching this show from the BBC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ihhj_VSKiTs&t=456s It seemed a reasonable look at the science involved. I get hungry on the limited calorie days, but not tired (we generally save all our calories for dinner on those days).
I know that limiting the average glucose (Hemoglobin A1C), fasting glucose, and the maximum are goals of doctors, though the HA1C may just be a convenient tracking measure. I think what harms the body most is the high levels of glucose – damages blood vessels which lead to all sorts of organ damage, including the pancreas and insulin production which in turn lets glucose get more out of control. My sister has type 2 diabetes and now needs to inject insulin.
Regarding small snacks vs large meals; I looked it up and studies seem to show for diabetics it’s better to eat several smaller meals rather than a couple of large ones. What can also help is having protein and fiber along with sweets or any carbs, which slows the release of sugar into the bloodstream and therefore help prevent large spikes and dips in glucose (I tell myself that’s why Reese’s PB cups or peanut M&Ms are the perfect sweets).Nov 4, 2019 at 2:21 pm #3617251
10 days in. I am pretty much somewhat to very hungry all the time except half an hour after I eat. That is new to me and is taking some getting used to. I seem to have more energy and I have not had any night sweats. I believe I lost a few pounds but have not verified on a scale.
Eating like this is taking quite a bit of planning; I try and eat and 8,12 and 4 with nothing in between those meals, not even coffee…😱
I had a slight headache on days 2-4 but that seems gone now.Nov 4, 2019 at 6:12 pm #3617270
Sounds rough; curious to hear if you think the tradeoff is worth it.Nov 4, 2019 at 6:22 pm #3617274IanBPL Member
How much do you think adjusting your caffeine intake has played into this? I tried quitting caffeine for a couple weeks, felt pretty terrible, and never broke through to a place where I was starting to feel better. I finally gave up because there was no end in sight.
It’s one hell of a socially acceptable substanceNov 4, 2019 at 6:50 pm #3617275
Waiting till 8 am for coffee has been really hard as is not having any after 8. Working for 2 hours without caffeine is rough but I am bound to get over it sooner or later, I hope??
is it worth it? If the benefits I see now are all I am getting from it..I don’t think so. If there really are cardiac benefits then hell yes it is worth it. Can I stick to it? I hope so but I don’t know..Nov 4, 2019 at 8:41 pm #3617290
I wouldn’t be surprised if Ian is right and half the bad symptoms are caffeine withdrawal.
Hope the whole thing proves to help, especially with the cardiac issues.Nov 5, 2019 at 12:04 am #3617318
Just happened to notice this on the google news feed. I drink several cups a day, haven’t really noticed any effect when I don’t drink it:
‘The most important thing we’ve learned about coffee over the past 20 years is that there’s very little indication that it’s bad for you,” says Edward Giovannucci, a professor of epidemiology and nutrition at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health. “If anything, there’s more evidence that it may be healthy to drink.”
The benefits are probably because of anti-inflammatories and antioxidants found naturally in coffee: polyphenols (such as chlorogenic and quinic acids) and diterpenes (such as cafestol and kahweol). Many of coffee’s health perks probably extend to decaf, too, because with decaf only the caffeine, not these other compounds, is removed.
Studies have found that coffee has a positive effect on the risk of a variety of conditions and diseases, including several forms of cancer. But not all of the benefits have the same strength of evidence behind them. Of course, adding loads of cream and sugar to your coffee may offset some of the benefits you get from it.”Nov 5, 2019 at 12:30 am #3617320IanBPL Member
I don’t think coffee is bad per se, a just don’t like that I’ve become so dependent on it to feel “normal.” I finally came to the conclusion that my fate has been sealed and I’ll be a coffee drinker until the day I die.
Other than caffeine and about six beers per year, I don’t take any other drugs. Caffeine and food are my only two real vices that I have to contend with daily. Unhealthy food habits killing more people than opioids, that’s my demon I continually try to slay with periods of success and failure.
I quit smoking about 20 years ago. I thought that was much easier than dieting. All you have to do is never smoke again. Food is something I have to address each and every day.
To try and get back on topic, I think that’s where TRE could benefit me. I have a limited window of opportunity to eat, and all other hours I “just say no” a flame worthy joke I know.
The last time I tried it, I was following a 20/4 fasting routine and would drink coffee during my fast. I didn’t consider changing my eating hours to the morning which is when I drink my coffee. I might try that If I ever do it again.Nov 5, 2019 at 1:28 am #3617328
I could not do that. I am doing 16-8 and have toyed with the idea of 18-6 but a four hour window I just could not imagine.Nov 5, 2019 at 2:22 am #3617334
FWIW, if I can throw in these thoughts…
A lot of research I’ve read shows that as little as 12/12 and 14/10 show benefits. More than 14 hours of fasting showed increased endurance potential in Dr. Panda’s research, but not much else if I remember right. So I’m curious if being ultra-strict and pushing towards 16/8 or even 18/6 isn’t a recipe for totally burning out by being unnecessarily difficult. 20/4 on a daily basis sounds absolutely brutal and I would imagine it would either lead to seriously under eating or seriously overeating during that window. From what I’ve read I’m not convinced longer fasting is necessarily better. Or to rephrase that, it might be marginally better, but if it’s unsustainable it won’t do much good.
I’m also curious why you’re not eating between meals Kat. Is there something saying this is beneficial, i.e. eating only three meals with nothing in between them? Again, all the research I’m familiar with allowed unrestricted eating as long as it was during the window.
I’m sure there’s a ton out there I’m not familiar with, this is why I ask…wondering what these numbers and strategies are based on. Please don’t mistake this for being obtuse or argumentative, I’m genuinely curious.Nov 5, 2019 at 2:42 am #3617336
These are all fair points Craig and I will try to address them.
I wholeheartedly agree that being too strict can just lead to failure; I am quite familiar with that one and am trying to work with it so I am not just setting myself up for a fall. My doctor said that even one or two days a week have shown improvements in a number of areas and that I could try the 7 days and if it is too hard do less days. She did not comment on my 8-16 plan so I took it that it wasn’t too restrictive. Right after giving me the option of doing it less days she added something along the lines of “ but on a daily basis try and not eat for 4 to 6 hours between meals, not even coffee or tea”. Now I am not sure if that meant always or just on days I don’t do the restricted hours. I took it as it being a good idea overall and so have applied it to everyday. Maybe I should ask..Nov 5, 2019 at 2:48 am #3617337
Yeah, I’ve also read that 5 days/week showed gains for people, that every day isn’t necessary.
Trust me, moderation is a difficult thing for me, it’s why I bring it up. I’m the type that generally figures that if something is worth doing then it must be worth seriously overdoing. Which of course has lead to a lot of crashing and burning throughout my life!
Im trying to get better at taking the Middle Path in many things.Nov 5, 2019 at 2:53 am #3617338
I can relate to that so much. Also trying to work on it. So thanks for the nudge not to go full on and then crash. Long term it works better to go easier. Thanks!Nov 5, 2019 at 3:44 am #3617346jscottBPL Member
@bookLocale: Northern California
I’m been on an atrial fibrillation forum for a long time–since my afib episodes and ablation some six or more years ago. Caffeine was considered a no no. It’s a stimulant, after all. But recent studies and comments by very knowledgeable folks on the forum suggest that actually, coffee is in itself healthy and contributes to some health outcomes. That said, it can play heck with your stomach.
I gave up coffee for six months and then took it up again with no adverse effects on my heart. A bit on my stomach. But we all have individual biologies, so drink your own cup and all that.Nov 5, 2019 at 3:56 am #3617347
nmNov 12, 2019 at 3:55 am #3618264
17 days in. Sometimes it feels easy and other times not so much, as to be expected. The feeling of hunger, and not doing anything about it, is new to me and it’s taking some time to acquaint myself with it. Like right now…it’s almost 8 and I ate a bit before 4 but I couldn’t really eat much. I have been reading quite a bit about autophagy and the promising, if young, research on it. With coffee, what I have read that makes the most sense to me is that how we react to it, as far as it breaking the fast is that some people will have an insulin reaction to it ( not sure that’s exactly right) and others won’t and the only way to tell is to test one’s blood before and then 30 minutes after a cup. I am not sure if I want to go poking myself for this: too much?? Is it worth it to know if coffee breaks my fast or not?
I seem to have more energy, that’s not nothing either.Nov 12, 2019 at 4:03 am #3618267
When I went keto last year I used to test my blood somewhat frequently to see if I was in ketosis or not. I didn’t do it for very long, but still have the meter with some blood glucose strips (I tested both ketones and blood glucose). I’d be happy to send it to you when I get home if you want it with the blood glucose strips (and ketones strips as well if you want them).Nov 12, 2019 at 4:07 am #3618268
I often do a 16-8 intermittent fasting routine (though I do drink black coffee in the morning as the guy I’ve read allows it). I’ve also done some 24-36 hour fasts, but only a couple of times. When I did the longer fasts I found that I’d get hungry, but the hunger wouldn’t last all that long, maybe half an hour or so, then it would just go away if I didn’t concentrate on it.Nov 12, 2019 at 4:08 am #3618269
Seriously? yes please and I would be happy to pay you what you think it’s worth.Nov 12, 2019 at 4:09 am #3618270
No payment necessary, I don’t use it any more. I won’t be home til early December but will send it then if you don’t mind waiting that long.Nov 12, 2019 at 4:12 am #3618271
Should I test for ketones too? I don’t even know what they are…I googled it and what comes up is the danger to diabetics and how to test for it.Nov 12, 2019 at 4:13 am #3618273
I am in no hurry Doug. Thanks!
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