- May 14, 2018 at 8:46 pm #3535476
Michael LBPL Member
We took Mexico and Texas from Mexico
How did I miss this gem. Texas took itself from Mexico. That is why it was an independent country before joining the US. It is also why it should have been allowed to secede except for the actions of Lincoln.May 14, 2018 at 9:42 pm #3535489
Jerry AdamsBPL Member
@retiredjerryLocale: Oregon and Washington
One thing is, for decades the Israelis and Palestinians have been unable to make peace. Trump doing the same thing as past presidents may just be asking for the same result, nothing.
Moving embassy to Jerusalem is a change of tactics. Maybe result will be different.
Maybe things will get worse, then both sides will be forced to make concessions. Just maintaining the low level of conflict will allow them to continue not making concessions.
Maybe the progress will happen after Trump is president.
Maybe I’m just trying to find a silver lining through the storm clouds.May 14, 2018 at 10:26 pm #3535502
“Maybe things will get worse, then both sides will be forced to make concessions”
It’s not like there’s an equivalency here. Things are and have been horrible for the Palestinians for decades; not for the Israelis. I don’t think that things getting worse still for the Palestinians matters at all for the Israelis. The state of Israel just wants thje Palestinians to disappear one way or the other so it can claim the land.
I think the situation is somewhat similar to the U.s. herding Native Americans onto reservations and then making conditions so horrible that they just die out. And breaking every treaty in the way of any land grab that became desirable for the U.S. as time went on. The difference being that Palestinians and Jews have shared a history and culture going back thousands of years. In this regard it’s different from South African apartheid too, where a recent colonizer dominated a native people. Although when the state of Israel was established it turned into something similar to that.
In any case I think that it’s clear that there is an oppressor and an oppressed here. Things won’t get worse for the Israelis, only for the Palestinians. So that scenario does nothing to foster serious negotiations.
Isn’t it clear that Israel has no interest in establishing a Palestinian state OR in integrating Palestinians into the state of Israel? Neither/nor. And the U>S. moving its embassy to Jerusalem just acknowledges that this is fine with us as well. Palestinians can just go to hell. That’s the policy and we lend our money and arms to enforce it.May 14, 2018 at 10:39 pm #3535512
I agree with most of your post Jeffrey. Things are ok for Israelis (for now) because we fight the wars necessary for them to continue doing what they do without consequences. Even that can only work for so long. Without our money ( and blood ) they would have to get along with their neighbors which would mean putting an end to the kind of stuff they did today.
Trump on this….makes me sick.
May 14, 2018 at 10:51 pm #3535519
- This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by Kat.
Jerry AdamsBPL Member
@retiredjerryLocale: Oregon and Washington
yeah, good points
I wasn’t approving of Trump’s actions, just making the best of a bad situation
I think Israel does have some legitimate grievances. They were attacked by other countries several times and easily could have been over-run. Crowds in Iran are currently chanting “death to Israel”. Also “death to Saudi Arabia and death to U.S.”.
I think the U.S. needs to not take either side but remain neutral. Push both sides to make peace. But we’ve sort of been doing that for decades with no progress. Okay, we’ve been giving Israel weapons and so forth but at least we haven’t moved our embassy to Jerusalem, until now.May 14, 2018 at 10:58 pm #3535521
Cutting off military and financial aid to Israel until a real and viable Palestinian state was established would have worked.
Each side has killed enough of the others citizens to kill compassion apparently. Everybody stews in the bloodshed.May 15, 2018 at 2:15 am #3535571
I’m not sure I agree with the comment about moralizing, but then I’m not quite sure what you mean Ben. It seems to me we need more people to take into consideration whether their actions and others that are carried out by their governments are right or wrong. Perhaps if more people would than some of this nonsense could be avoided, understanding the history and context is an important part of that too. I’m probably misinterpreting what was meant.
Another recent extremely violent action that has cost many lives that have been ongoing but haven’t received practically any attention are the Turkey supported attacks in Afrin, something that might amount to genocide.May 15, 2018 at 2:59 am #3535583
Tom KBPL Member
“The dumbest thing is for people to “moralize” this as some issue of right vs. wrong — comfortably and safely from their homes thousands of miles away.”
I don’t know, Ben. This is about as clear an issue of right vs wrong as I’ve come across. There are others, of course, that fall in the same evil category, including the Holocaust, for which the Palestinians have been made to pay the price. Given the Jewish experience in Europe, particularly Eastern Europe, I find it particularly inexcusable that they turn around and do the same to a defenseless people who had done nothing to deserve it.May 16, 2018 at 9:09 pm #3536057
aaannd … Nikki Haley walks out of UNSC meeting as Palestinian envoy beings to speak.
Neutral, eh?May 17, 2018 at 2:31 pm #3536202
@bivysack-com-2-2Locale: East Washington
Too bad there is no US constitutional guarantees in Gaza. You could go down the list pretty much, the lack of rights being given to the people of Gaza
1st People being killed for exercising 1st amendment rights.
2nd No arms to defend themselves. Those Israeli conscripts wouldn’t be so glib when targeting children, women and EMT’s if having to deal with return fire. Hamas would likely be less powerful with Gaza citizens able to resist as well.
3rd Taking the whole friggin land
4th-8th Israel just takes, no due process. Israeli Military mets out punishment at whims. Cruel and unusual-punished families of suspected criminals.
“But others are worse” arguments didn’t work on your mom either.May 17, 2018 at 9:38 pm #3536290
There’s an editorial in today’s NYtimes that argues the the Palestinians are at fault for their circumstances. The writer failed to convince me.
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