- Oct 12, 2017 at 8:31 pm #3496371Oct 15, 2017 at 12:36 pm #3496850
Robert MeurantBPL Member
A good read, Tom. Global to local. I think the US might be in for a massive identity crisis. It seems stuck between presuming to take over the world, and needing to pull its head in, in the face of the very real limitations to power.Oct 16, 2017 at 1:39 am #3496959
“needing to pull its head in, in the face of the very real limitations to power.”
Yes, and it will probably take some time, perhaps more than we have. In any case, as we can see, it is a pretty rough road.Oct 16, 2017 at 6:07 am #3497003
W I S N E R !BPL Member
Brutal read Tom. I liked it. Sjursen is always provoking.Oct 16, 2017 at 6:40 pm #3497095
Heavy stuff, but many good points and corollaries made.
In a loose, indirect sense, it reminded me of a book I read years ago called the World Peace Diet. The author argued in the book that if we treated animals a lot better and with much more respect and empathy, we would likely find ourselves also becoming more kind and positive towards fellow humans.
I think there is at least a nugget of truth to that, and that a similar principle (and process) applies to the local vs world focused militarism as well.
Ultimately, both circumstances and issues are about respect and appreciation of life in a more universal, inclusive way vs a severe lack, and that the former is a building, constructive, unifying, creative choice of direction and the latter is inherently destructive and entropy inducing choice of direction.Oct 16, 2017 at 7:59 pm #3497118
Todd StoughBPL Member
What I find most interesting. People can read an article like that, one that is very good and honest, and say how true it is. In the next thread proclaim that gov’t is our savior and nothing good would come without it. In the next that we need to be completely unarmed. Perhaps if we were unarmed the American streets would look just like those of Iraq.
Justin is partly correct. The part he misses is that most people are kind. It is gov’t which is not a person that is unkind. The problem is the people wo sign up and follow orders.Oct 16, 2017 at 10:29 pm #3497154
@rcaffinLocale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
In the next that we need to be completely unarmed. Perhaps if we were unarmed the American streets would look just like those of Iraq.
Or they might look like the streets of Australia, UK or Europe. No-one there goes around armed.
CheersOct 17, 2017 at 2:12 am #3497204
“Or they might look like the streets of Australia, UK or Europe. No-one there goes around armed.”
That assumes the people here think like the people in Australia, UK or Europe. Unfortunately, in this regard, that is not the case. :0(Oct 17, 2017 at 6:54 pm #3497309
“Justin is partly correct. The part he misses is that most people are kind. It is gov’t which is not a person that is unkind. The problem is the people wo sign up and follow orders.”
The various levels of government and bureaucracy are, at the end of the day, made up of “people” too. But yes, I agree, there are more problem people within or strongly connected to government and bureaucracy than among the general populous. This is not something that I’ve “missed”, as I’ve been talking fairly consistently about this very issue for years here.
What else is all this talk about psychopathy and psychopaths being attracted to positions of power, control, and/or extreme, unnecessary wealth been about? It’s about facilitating deeper questioning and skepticism of the power structures of the world and of those who make up same.
But let’s address the statement that most people are “kind”. Ime/o, I would say this is one of those combo’s of yes and no’s. If you’ve looked at different psychological experiments along the lines of the Milgram one–you’ll see a trend that the average person while decent hearted under “normal” circumstances, can be manipulated or coerced easily enough through either social fear, deception, and/or authority, to do or partake in some pretty negative stuff. History also bears this out repeatedly.
Sometimes it’s not enough to be just “decent hearted under normal circumstances”. Sometimes it requires growing/evolving beyond that to a more self actualized state if you truly want to help out society.
I see humanity as existing on an ever changing (but usually slowly both in the collective and individual sense) and somewhat fluid consciousness spectrum that has two opposite extremes, but which both relate to a consciousness we could call for a lack of a better term–Love.
On one end of the spectrum you have Yeshua (Jesus), which could be used to represent pure Love, or as pure as is possible in human form. On the far, opposite end of the spectrum you have hard core psychopaths that completely lack all and any conscience, ethics, and empathy and who are purely selfish, self focused, and inherently very destructive to others and society around them. Aka complete lack of attunement to Love.
It seems that the average person is found somewhere in between these two opposite ends–perhaps we could say, somewhere in the middle makes up the majority of the populous.
The whole point of this life thing, imo, is to move more towards the Yeshua end of the spectrum of pure Love. The more a person does so, the less they can be manipulated by psychopaths or psychopathic power structures.
The relatively small percentage of people in the experiments like the Milgram who did not go along with the authority and majority, and said no, I’m not going to shock or what have you the other person in the other room, were probably more self actualized people and closer to the Yeshua end of the Love Consciousness spectrum than the average. They have strong self will, they lack fear to be different or to stand up to authority, they are more self aware, stronger sense of ethics and responsibility, and above all, have greater empathy for the suffering of others. Their internal code of ethics and responsibility is more important to them than what others think or what authority or society tells them is legal, right, or illegal or wrong.
Just like these experiments have shown, such people are still relatively rare–the minority.
So yes, I would argue that it’s not enough to be “decent hearted”, as it seems the majority are, because these type of people will still get manipulated and overly influenced by the power structures and authoritarian voices/influences around them.
I would argue that most in America who voted for either Clinton or Trump, most likely falls into the decent hearted spectrum that humanity needs to grow/evolve out of. For these and this two party system well illustrates the nature of the deception and manipulation, and the false pretense of “choice”.
Instead of voting for either of these obviously plutocratic types, the American people should have been collectively demanding real change to the political system. If our society was already made up of a majority of self actualized and relatively close to the Yeshua spectrum of Love–things would be rather different here already.
Anyways, the good news is that it seems the trend is that the majority is gradually moving towards the Yeshua spectrum. When humanity has to really work together, even for it’s basic survival (and this time will come)–this trend will greatly strengthen and speed up. When we see real communities form organically here and there–people growing food together, people teaching each other skills, people helping each other in various ways and getting past these silly separations and barriers of labels of “difference” such as political, ethnic, gender, etc through this working together–then will you know that Christ Consciousness is being born in the hearts of humanity in a deep, lasting, meaningful, more collective way and that we will grow to the point of being beyond manipulation by psychopaths and psychopathic power structures.Oct 17, 2017 at 9:16 pm #3497327
“When we see real communities form organically here and there–people growing food together, people teaching each other skills, people helping each other in various ways and getting past these silly separations and barriers of labels of “difference” such as political, ethnic, gender, etc through this working together–”
I so agree with this and much more of Justin’s post. Also Todd’s. I thank you both.Oct 17, 2017 at 9:28 pm #3497330
W I S N E R !BPL Member
I thought this article on re-imagining policing tied into Sjursen’s in an interesting way.Oct 18, 2017 at 12:21 am #3497366
I’ve got 25 years of being paid by the taxpayers and do agree with Justin’s observations. The folks who crave authority and power should be viewed with suspicion. Often times, those who rise to those positions of influence and control, arrived there because they were good for themselves and not necessarily their community/agency.
I’d be remiss if I didn’t clarify that most government employees I know are just trying to do their job and put food on the table. I’ve found that there’s a large personality gap between those who are happy knocking out their widgets every day vs those who aggressively punch their card to move through the ranks as quickly as possible.Oct 18, 2017 at 1:39 am #3497380
@rcaffinLocale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
those who aggressively punch their card to move through the ranks as quickly as possible
Yeah, but at the end of the day, they still end up dead.
And being judged by the next generation.
CheersOct 18, 2017 at 1:45 am #3497382
I’m not expecting too much dissent here at BPL in the belief that there’s more to life than money and status at work, all of which means little on the trail.
Except if your camperan gets repo’d at the trailhead. Money isn’t completely useless ;)Oct 18, 2017 at 1:54 am #3497388
Robert MeurantBPL Member
Love is one approach, but it too can be subverted.
Great insight into self-actualization, or self-realization, can be found in the writings of I.K. Taimni, an influential scholar in the fields of Yoga and Indian Philosophy, notably:
See also:Oct 18, 2017 at 11:10 pm #3497498
David OlsenBPL Member
@bivysack-com-2Locale: Channeled Scab Lands
Americans (those in the US anyway) no longer have to be subject to the draft or give up meat, gas or car tires to support the war efforts. We really are far away from the troubles we involve ourselves in other countries.
Government. Local seems to work for most around here, Big government seems to be so divided it can’t even work on issues agreed on by both sides.
Corporations have the primary goal of profit. They can’t be depended on for general welfare of all the citizens.Oct 18, 2017 at 11:35 pm #3497500
“Government. Local seems to work for most around here, Big government seems to be so divided it can’t even work on issues agreed on by both sides.
Corporations have the primary goal of profit. They can’t be depended on for general welfare of all the citizens.”
+1 to your entire post. Small is beautiful, as the saying goes. when it comes to government, that is the only way individuals can feel they have a say in the issues that affect their lives. As for corporations, to the degree they have influence over government, it will not end well for the common man. Thomas Jefferson knew that some 200 years ago.
On a personal note, I remember the ration coupons from WWII. I was going through some personal stuff a month or so ago, and came across some ration coupon books our family was issued in the early 1940s. It was an eerie feeling. Back then, civilians sacrificed to support the war effort. Today, we’re told to relax, go out and shop, and the government will take care of the nasty stuff. And then the body bags start trickling in, undiagnosed PTSD sufferers are integrated into society, and the true costs of our excellent adventures overseas are visited upon an unsuspecting public.Oct 19, 2017 at 12:08 am #3497505
jeffrey armbrusterBPL Member
@bookLocale: Northern California
“I’d be remiss if I didn’t clarify that most government employees I know are just trying to do their job and put food on the table.”
I’d go a step further and say that most government employees actually have integrity and want their efforts to benefit society as a whole. This is also true of the vast majority of journalists, despite the blather by people who can only benefit by attacking the fact checkers. And yes, even doctors mostly have the interest of patients in mind….mostly. And so do cops! And so on. People who attack the integrity of everyone working in any profession as a whole tend to be ideologists with a grudge. Or president Trump. Or anti-fa’s.
But I digress. It really takes a phenomenal amount of cynicism to think that most or all cops are out to beat down minorities; or that journalists as a whole are conspiring to lie about political realities. It’s just not so. How can we have lost touch with the human reality behind every beauracracy (sp.) , profession and trade?
But that’s where we are today.Oct 22, 2017 at 10:50 pm #3497920
To address Jeffrey’s last post–again would agree that the majority of people are at least decent hearted and probably doing their best, most of the time, with what they know, understand, and perceive.
But both psychological studies and history repeatedly shows that the average person can be purposely manipulated or coerced by clever people of ill intent, via fear, “authority”, propaganda, and/or other deception to do or believe things they normally wouldn’t do of their own accord. Or to be an active participant in unhealthy systems.
The US as a country is a good example of this. Is it any wonder why so many people in this country are so bloody depressed or discontent? If you add up the amount of people on anti depressants, other mood altering drugs (prescription and illegal), and alcohol to “manage” their lives and to escape from reality to avoid having a total breakdown–well the numbers are staggering. There are many other obvious dysfunctional symptoms present as well, such as mass shootings. Constant war.
What’s at the core of this? I would argue it’s a perfect storm of many different variables from food, lifestyle, societal, spiritual (or if you prefer, ethics), etc. The societal part alone has many variables from over materialism to having let too many of the psychopathic types run too much for too long, to being too disconnected from nature or real community.
But all of it, all of it in some form or other, traces back to a combo of individual and collective lack of Love and too much selfishness and fear.
To grow, to change for the better, you first have to see what’s blocking and hindering same and clearly understand the symptoms, and more importantly, the causes behind these and the solution(s).
The solution at it’s core or essence is Love, but that’s a huge, multifaceted concept packed in a tiny little word. Again, we’ll see it flower more as America (and many other nations) goes through hard times and people have to get back to real communities and to nature just to survive.
Love does not mean seeing things through rose tinted glasses as a way of trying to make self feel better about harsh reality. Some of the most scathing criticisms of society that I’ve read, have been reported by others to have been said by Yohannan the Baptist and Yeshua, whom both were very concerned about and trying to live Love in a holistic way.
Other people of Love, such as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr and Frederick Douglas also scathingly laid bare the ugly illusions and things to work on in society. We’ve grown some since these, but there is still quite a ways to go. Meanwhile, I would argue that the psychopathic types have more power and influence than ever via the accumulation of resources and the consolidation of power.
Are you aware that the huge majority of mainstream media companies and venues are literally owned now, by only 6 parent, immensely wealthy and powerful corporations? Of course there are many well meaning journalists and people of ethics and integrity within these various companies, but who has more power and say–them or the CEO’s and board members?
Take someone like Brian Williams for example–I’m not so sure he wasn’t given orders or direction to fudge the truth here and there by a boss or someone higher up than himself. It’s quite likely other people within NBC et al. knew about these shenanigans before he was publicly caught and ousted. Of course it would be highly unlikely he would never admit that because it would mean even more of a death of his career than saying, yeah I screwed up and fudged the truth.
What’s that quote that pertains so well to this whole mess? While it may not be an actual quote of Burke’s–it still rings of pragmatic truth, “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing”.
There is a lot of that nowadays. A lot of apathy or looking the other way or, “it’s not my problem if it doesn’t directly affect me.” Not enough of the decent and good hearted people are uniting on important issues. Most of us are caught up in and spend most of our time and energy on the rat race. I would argue that this was not solely a natural and spontaneous progression–that it was to some extent purposely nudged and molded in this direction.
Read up on or read Edward Bernay’s own words in his book Propaganda. Bernays was a man extremely well connected in both high society and government, both locally in the US and internationally (he was the nephew of Sigmund Freud). He rubbed shoulders with the likes of Woodrow Wilson and the Rockefeller family. He was instrumental in various “movements”, such as getting women to purchase/smoke cigarettes through manipulated PR stunts. The following is a direct quote from the above book mentioned.
““The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. …We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society. …In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons…who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind.”
If you understand that he was speaking from actual experience and knowledge, and that he was involved in some pretty unethical activities himself–and if you understand psychopathy and the attraction of power and extreme wealth for these types–then you understand that the above quote has ramifications tending towards the diabolical in nature.
While it’s not healthy to focus on only the negative in the world–neither is it healthy to focus primarily on the positive or to dress things up. There needs to be a balance and to be able to look at reality as it truly is, and not as we want it to be. Currently, there is some very deeply entrenched, pervasive, well organized, long going corruption going on in this world that influences every aspect of our lives. As it’s been pragmatically said, “follow the money”.
But it’s easier to focus on a symptom and small fish in comparison, like Trump and their obvious issues. You don’t need to do a lot of research, soul searching, holistic thinking/perceiving, etc., to see the problems with folks like Trump. It’s one of those “duh” type things.
That so many people believe that Trump is or will be some kind of savior as do, is pretty frightening in and of itself and speaks volumes of how easy it is to fool or manipulate people. It was even worse with Obama (in the sense of people being fooled/manipulated), the Messiah President of Hope and Change.
As I said–it’s not enough to be decent hearted.Oct 24, 2017 at 3:24 pm #3498186
Jerry AdamsBPL Member
@retiredjerryLocale: Oregon and Washington
Good interview of Basevich on HPR
“OCTOBER 23, 2017
What’s happening in Niger, Russians troll US activists and Spain divided”
He didn’t seem to care too much about today’s issue, whether Trump’s call was offensive, no president ever called him when his son was killed in Iraq. Maybe this is a good example of the media concentrating on unimportant “issues” that are more just sensational click bait.
He was more into why we’re in Africa. This hasn’t been discussed with Americans. He questioned whether we’re accomplishing anything.
He was also concerned with Huckabee’s comment about whether it’s proper to question a Marine General. We have too many military people at high political positions and they do not have a good overall perspective. There is currently this worship of military people that concerns Basevich.Oct 24, 2017 at 3:25 pm #3498187
Jerry AdamsBPL Member
@retiredjerryLocale: Oregon and Washington
NPR, not HPR : )Oct 26, 2017 at 6:05 am #3498555
Ultimately, the irony is this: poor Eric Garner — at least if he had run into my platoon — would have been safer in Baghdad than on that street corner in New York. Either way, he and so many others should perhaps count as domestic casualties of my generation’s forever war.
What’s global is local. And vice versa. American society is embracing its inner empire. Eventually, its long reach may come for us all.
That’s an excellent article. I’ve mentioned this before here but history has shown that the longer a country is at war the more nonsense like this will continue and spread domestically.
Here’s a related article:
Another thought provoking one:
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