Dyneema wishlist – feedback wanted

[Kyle Baker]

FULL DISCLOSURE – I’m the owner/founder of the Ripstop by the Roll.

So I just returned from winter OR this past week. As always it was a great time and we got to check out a ton of killer gear by so many great outdoor companies. We also spent some time with the folks at Dyneema, which prompted this thread.

With the money DSM is putting into the Dyneema Project and the Dyneema brand itself, there are a lot of new materials on the horizon. I was able to see a few of them and immediately got excited with the idea of bringing them to the DIYer and smaller vendor in the immediate future. However, as most of you know, Dyneema can be quite spendy.

That being said, instead of making my own decisions, I wanted to start a discussion to find out what you’d like to see happen. Please don’t stop at things you know are possible already. Get creative and let your imagination run wild if you like.

Thanks in advance for the feedback and participation. Ultimately, we want to produce and/or work to create the things you want. Your input matters.

[Steve K]

I for one, would like to see lighter and tighter weaves of Dyneema woven fabric. As it stands, the Dyneema woven/nonwoven fabric on offer seems to be quite tough, but relatively heavy and requiring of the mylar laminate to hold much shape at all.

I envision a fabric closer in weight and feel to the 210D Nylon/Dyneema X Gridstop already on offer, but woven as only Dyneema. While we’re dreaming, I’d like it to cost similarly, too.

[Jerry Adams]

Is it totally waterproof?

I hate having to have an inner plastic bag to keep my stuff dry, or an outer cover.

And just being waterproof when I get it, but losing waterproofness over time isn’t very good

It seems like smaller denier fabric can be made more waterproof because the gaps between threads is smaller

[Kyle Baker]

We’re definitely bringing in woven Dyneema, just a matter of which variants. I agree that a lighter, more densely woven version would be better.

White, Black (a bit more expensive), or don’t care?

On the price, we have some thoughts/plans on how to bring the cost down, but it doesn’t involve lowering the price/yd.

[Scott Nelson]

How about a light fabric for single wall tents and bivi sacks?  Waterproof, breathable, strong, light.  I’m thinking of the eVent used in BD Firstlight tent. Of course pricing that doesn’t require an equity line of credit would help.

[Jan Rezac]

1. Ultralight “Cuben” type laminate with one or both sides using TPU layer instead of the mylar foil. It could be the lightest permanently waterproof material (current cuben develops pinholes because the mylar cracks in folds, regular fabrics have either thin coating that is not durable enough, or are heavy). One TPU side would solve the waterproofness at (probably) lower weight while a two-sided version  would also eliminate the crinkyness of cuben and make it more useful for rainwear.
2. If uncoated, fine woven dynema could be made sewable without any additional coating, a black version would be the best reinforcement fabrics.
3. Lightweight laminate with face made of such dynema fabrics would be great for packs. Grey (blend of black and white fiber) would be better than black or white.

[Cherian Thomas]

I might be dreaming, but an ultralight woven fabric, with >1500mm H2O hydrostatic head and coated with silicone/PTFE/PVC might open up new possibilities for tent-making. The key will be to ensure it has warp, fill, bias and shear moduli similar to the light silpoly or silnylon that is currently available. The very low stretch of cuben makes taut membranes hard to make – the patterning tolerances have to be very tight.

[Sam C]

I predominantly do packs, and quite often.  I am also not an ultralighter as I am not interested in building packs for the sake of saving weight; I like my packs to be light (~2 – 2 1/2lbs, give or take) yet do not want to put on the baby gloves when in use.  I use fabrics, in part or in whole, to help create a “skeleton”, so I like fabrics that offer structural integrity (the ability to “stand up” on their own).  I also like fabrics that are of a higher denier, yet “soft”, to allow for some articulation in areas where rigidness is not necessary or wanted.  With that, here is what I’d like to see:

1.  A fabric akin to a cross between your 420D Robic and 210D Dyneema rip-stop.  A Robic/Dyneema hybrid would be awesome, but they are competing yarns, are they not?
2. Construction of fabric aside, I’d like to see Dyneema fabrics offered in the weights of: ~2oz.; ~4oz.; and ~6oz.
3. Going with my #1, a hybrid of 300D HyperD with Dyneema diamonds would be awesome (I hope).
4. Hydrostatic head of at least 1500mm.
5. Camouflage \m/
6. And yes, available in white.  Offering the 210D Dyneema in white would be cool, too.

I know you didn’t ask for anything else, but since this is concerning a wishlist…

…carrying 300D and/or 500D Cordura, or at least the 1000D Cordura in other colors, would be awesome.  It would also be nice to see your 3D mesh offered in at least one other color.  I’d also like to see wrap-around sternum strap sliders that go from 1″ (shoulder strap) to 3/4″ (that is, two 3/4″ loops, one on each side).  For some reason this is a hard to find item even though it is ubiquitous to nearly all commercial packs.  I mean, you can find them in 1″ to 1″ or 1″ to 3/4″ on a single side only yet the 1″ to double 3/4″ is severely lacking.  Also, 3/4″ and 1″ loops would be nice, too.

[R]

I’d like to see a line of woven Dyneema products.  I hope these will be lighter than equivalent nylon and polyester products due to relative fiber strength.  I hope these will be more durable than non-woven laminates (aka Cuben Fiber) and at least as durable as their nylon or polyester equivalents.

Specifically:

• something for tarps and bivies that beats your Membrane series on weight (and Rockywoods’ 0.7osy coated nylon).
• something for light backpacks that beats the hybrid Cuben available at zpacks.com in at least one of: price, weight, durability.

If you’re pursuing non-woven laminates:

• something with additional fibers on the bias to hold seams and stress points better.
• something with a more durable laminate that doesn’t pin-hole so readily.

A TPU laminate that could be bonded w/ a consumer clothing iron would be pretty cool.  100% waterproof, stronger than sewing, and with out the additional weight of tape or mess of cement.

[AG]

there are a lot of new materials on the horizon. I was able to see a few of them

okay you’ve teased us long enough. tell us the cool stuff you saw!!

[Nathan Meyerson]

IMHO a tightly woven Full dyneema in around 150denier would be an ideal pack fabric.

Some sort of waterproofing is a necessity. Laminates are superior to PU/Silicone coatings.

White is not an ideal color choice for pack fabrics, as it gets grungy quickly. Black is great if you have access to it.

 

As a point of reference, I build 100+ packs a year mostly from X-Pac fabrics.

 

YMMV

[Colin Krusor]

I think I remember that 50 denier is the finest dyneema yarn in production, so very light woven fabrics for shelters, hammocks, and insulation seem unlikely. Even the finest Chinese counterfeit UHMWPE is 30 denier. A 1.0 oz/yd fabric with 50 denier yarn would be a screen. Kyle, can you confirm this limitation?

[Sam C]

“White is not an ideal color choice for pack fabrics, as it gets grungy quickly.”

 

True, and some do want to keep their packs clean and pristine.  I like white because it does get dirty/stained.  When you are really out in the natural world you are hiking and camping through dirt, mud, slime, animal doo, and so on; you and your gear get dirty.  For those of us who do not blog or post our adventures to social media, consider it our red badge of courage.

Eh, guess I’m just hiker trash.  Besides, don’t want white fabric, don’t buy white fabric.  HYOH, MYOG, and let’s all be happy on the trail with what we got.

 

[Hanz B]

This is a great thread!

I really love the Yama mountain gears diy cf stuff sac kit so more options like that would be cool.

…While lighter and tighter weave is one direction, on the otherhand the heaviest part of UL 1P tents these days seams to the the no see em mesh, given the strength of dyneema id be really interested in moderate strength light and super looser weaves – like way way way looser for bug mesh. … And a tensile and rip stop test on it compared to no see em mesh. Maybe that crazy talk though not sure how dyneema works on that level.

… and Shoelaces that don’t wet out.

…I think I dyneema laminate to a reflective material could be an interesting idea, something to add strength to the reflective foils that could be an alternative to foam pads or the bottom side of an air pad.

… I’m not sure how dyneemas compare to nylon but my understanding is that nylons don’t fry much, thus they don’t break the hydrostatic water head, which essentially is what allows a dwr coating to bead up water thus they are used on top of Wpb jackets as a protective element like on gortex ,etc. but nylon breaths a little. Is there a version of cf/dyneema that would fry even less and weigh less than nylon but still breath on top of a wbp material?

 

 

[Hanz B]

*fray*

[Hanz B]

…oh and 8 by 10 sheets of cf sturdy enough to run through an ink jet or laser printer but will also have enough texture to pick up the ink – to create diy map print outs that won’t require zip lock bags and don’t weigh as much as that waterproof paper. :)

[David Gardner]

A permanently waterproof fabric that doesn’t ever develop pinholes from folding/packing/stuffing, in .3, .5 and .75 oz/yd for making tents.

[Robert Alexander]

60in wide rolls.

I also like the above mosquito mesh material concept. That could be exceptionally light.

[Edward Barton]

I also think to mosquito netting is a great idea. Somewhat off topic, but I really like the fabric of the Patagonia nano-air jackets – very soft, quiet, highly breathable, and with mechanical stretch, which dries faster than a fabric with spandex. It would be great to have something comparable. Perhaps dyneema could be used to make something like that more durable at less weight, which are it’s major downsides.

[Colin Krusor]

Wow. I guess this thread is for idle fantasies. My sensible comment and question bounced right off of it.

[Kyle Baker]

@ckrusor – I was told there’s a new reinforced RS nylon variant checking in at around 1.2 osy, but that could still be using the 50D Dyneema, just with a lighter base nylon.

As I understand it, one of the challenges with creating a lightweight, Dyneema reinforced waterproof material is the mismatch in size between nylon/poly and Dyneema. Essentially, when trying to make a fabric waterproof via coating, you want the surface to be as smooth as possible. This way you keep the discontinuities to a minimum and maximize the waterproof lifespan.

I don’t have the exact numbers, but I’ve heard that a 2:1 ratio between nylon/poly yarn and the Dyneema yields a good size match on the yarns, and thus produces the most ideal surface for coating. Problem is, like you said, the lightest Dyneema is somewhere in the 50D range, so using a nice lightweight 20D or 30D nylon/poly base doesn’t work well. Kinda going the other way on that one.

 

 

[Colin Krusor]

Thanks for that explanation, Kyle. My inference was that many people, myself included, are interested in pure Dyneema woven fabrics, with no nylon/poly. A drop-in pure Dyneema replacement for current ultralight (<1.0 oz/yd) nylon/poly fabrics would be great, but I think this is not possible with current technology. Dyneema yarns are not small enough. If anyone has the expertise to elaborate on this, please do.

[Mordecai _]

Looking through this thread…

https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/10oz-cuben-fiber-quilt/

…I’m wondering if there isn’t a way to make cuben breathable, but still downproof?

 

[John-Paul O]

Softshell and other clothing fabrics.

Something to enable highly abrasion and tear resistant layers with stretch that are breathable but could have a DWR treatment. IE softshell material. As Dyneema is fairly water shedding on its own the DWR treatment should last quite a while.
One Idea, though I don’t know how practical at this point for fibers thin enough is a kernmantle-like construction where the outer fiber is Dyneema and the inner fiber is something that stretches. For any given length of thread constructed like this the outer fibers would be slightly longer than the inner fibers as the weaving makes them take a longer path length so a small amount of stretch should be possible. High abrasion resistance plus stretch without depending on the weave alone to provide the stretch in only the diagonal direction. Imagine an Arcteryx or Outdoor Research lightweight softshell jacket but significantly more abrasion resistant, would be even better than current jackets for rock climbing and alpinism. Similar kernmantle-like fibers could be used for great pants as well.

Rain/wind shell type fabrics and laminates.
The NW Alpine Eyebright jacket and similar Dyneema containing jackets look great and are very light, but a light woven construction could be significantly more resistant to abrasion than a non-woven laminate construction. If bonding to woven Dyneema is the issue then you could do kernmantle style threads as above but reversed. Woven fiber outer layer that is easy to bond to and a inner Dyneema core for strength.

Mosquito / no-see-um netting.
Weight saving possibilities aside, a Dyneema mosquito netting would be stronger than available materials. As it is very slippery the normal way to weave netting may not be adequate. Maybe you could do a loose plain weave and then thermally bond the threads together at the intersections with a roll lamination machine (without actual lamination) or some other method.

It would be nice to be able to have a dynamic climbing rope with the abrasion resistance of Dyneema without impacting the stretch of the rope. I imagine there would then be issues due to its lower melting point and lower friction when belaying and rappelling though.

Dyneema is certainly a wonderful material, but if it can’t currently get yarns smaller than 50d, are there any other very strong materials that currently can while we dream of the future? Kevlar, Technora, or other aramids, vectran, Zylon/PBO, ??? In many applications Dyneema’s low melting point are not much of an issue. For camping/hiking we can just be careful around camp fires, that is usually sufficient, however a better wonder material would also be resistant to heat.

[Ryan P. Murphy]

I’d like access to a pure dyneema woven fabric with a waterproof laminate backer so you have the complete waterproofness of cuben with the abrasion, etc. advantages of the woven dyneema. Basically a MYOG version of the woven/nonwoven dyneema fabric that Cilogear uses. If this could be done in a lighter weight that would  be even better. Also, while I like the space age look of the all white Cilogear packs I would prefer a black or grey for their low key looks, especially when used while travelling or for hunting purposes.

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