Another Rainwear thread

[JCH]

But theoretically, a WPB and well-ventilated jacket would be even better.

See OR Torso-flo :)

[Dean F.]

@JCH- I suspect that those still use a DWR coating.  But I’m too lazy to look it up.

And perhaps I should better define what I’m saying:

Since no WPB product is actually “breathable”, it is silly to buy one whose lifespan is significantly limited by it’s DWR treatment.  But if the OutDry works- by which I mean it’s at least more breathable than urethane- and has a long lifespan because it doesn’t use a DWR treatment, then assuming that you’re willing to spend the money a well-ventilated OutDry product would presumably be superior to a well-ventilated non-breathable product.

For the record, I bought one of those non-breathable-but-highly-vented Sierra Designs jackets a while ago, but that was before OutDry came out.  It works ok- by which I mean that it is a viable alternative to a WPB product.  (I got the full-zip version, for even more venting.)  But I find that it’s actually on the heavy side, and I cannot comment yet on long-term durability.

Similarly, I am somewhat intrigued by the Packa, but I have had bad experiences with ponchos.

[JCH]

Dean – I have also have had some bad experiences with ponchos.  I bought a Packa and it seems to solve the worst of the problems.  The one issue it does NOT address is that it is still quite “floppy” like a poncho…but unlike a poncho, it does not blow open/around in the wind.  You look like you are wearing a giant trash back but who cares?  You are warm and dry and so are your pack, hip and shoulder belts.  If you are curious about it, it is a relatively inexpensive experiment.

The Zpacks cuben poncho addresses the loose and floppy issues pretty well, but we are back to bare arms (at least from the elbows down) so it solves one issue while (re)introduces another.

There may be no optimal solution, but that won’t keep me from trying to find it :)

[Brett Peugh]

Pretty much all WPB use a DWR.  To get a well ventilated, entirely waterproof rain jacket look for an OR Rampart they had a few years back that had Torso-flo and no DWR.  70D so it can take a smacking.  Weighs about a pound but you won’t get wet from the rain.

[Dean F.]

@Brett-

My understanding was that the whole point of the OutDry stuff was that they do not need to use a DWR coating.  Am I wrong?

[Brett Peugh]

They do not but there is really no B there though either and not much in the way of ventilation except for mesh pocket zips.  You will not get wet from an OutDry from the outside but you might steam up pretty well on the inside.  If it was me just save the $200 and get a coated waterproof nylon rain jacket with long pit zips for a lot less.

 

[Paul S.]

The OutDry Ex Gold jacket has pit zips but isn’t light (11-13 ounces depending on the size).

[Mina Loomis]

Hello, OP here.  I’ve been away on a backpacking trip (Pecos Wilderness) for the last week.  So much more information!  I had no idea of the problems with the higher-end rainwear, just always assumed it worked better/longer, without too much of a weight penalty.  My new DriDucks didn’t arrive before my trip so I took a FroggToggs poncho that was immediately available, and the Sierra Designs Hurricane pants that don’t fit well.  But the only rain we got was at night so it didn’t matter.  And it wasn’t so cold that I needed more than the midweight wool leggings under the skirt when out and around.  Since my rainwear also serves as an outer warmth layer, a poncho is less than ideal as the upper torso unit. For the time being, I’ll just be replacing the DriDucks more frequently, before they fail in the middle of a trip.  And I’ll keep reading BPL for any new developments in possibly more durable technology.

I’d still like to get my base weight a little lower (that would be another thread of course) than the current 12-13 lbs or so, but looking at all the gear lists and discussions, I don’t quite see how to do that.  Comparing to the other lists, it looks like either I have to switch to a frameless pack–not feasible for my physique (or lack thereof)–or come to terms with being cold a lot of the time or give up hot meals. Or the other lists aren’t actually including everything.  It doesn’t appear that rainwear is an avenue of attack, anyway.

Thanks to all!

[Dale Wambaugh]

My usual +1 on a poncho. All that is needed for wind is a belt made from light line and you can add a toggle if you want fancy. Run the line up under your pack and let it catch on your belt buckle on the front. A backpacking poncho should be cut longer on the back to cover your backside with a pack on. Most have a way to shorten the black when not wearing a pack.

Poncho strengths:

• Light weight (7oz)
• Low cost ($70)
• Good low-tech ventilation
• Coverage to the knees or a bit lower
• Covers your entire pack so you have a dry suspension when the sun returns
• Easy deployment: keep your pack and everything else on!
• Multiple uses: pack cover, emergency and cook/rest stop shelter.

Weaknesses

• Arm coverage
• Heavy weather, exposed conditions above tree line
• Too small for a primary shelter

[JCH]

Mina – re: reducing your base weight.  If you feel like you are at that point where each item you are carrying is as light as it can get, or as light as you are willing to go (safety, convenience, cost), then its likely time to look at eliminating things from your pack.  After each trip, perform an inventory and place everything you never touched during the trip in a separate pile.  Seriously consider not packing those things next time. IMO, a reduction in the  comfort of your pack in an effort to reduce total load weight is a losing strategy…all-day pack comfort is everything and completely worth a few ounces…some would argue it’s worth an extra pound.

Also, I would argue that raingear is an avenue of attack…if you simply don’t take it!  If there is little to no chance of rain, you can save the full weight of that gear.  Admittedly, the willingness to do this is fairly closely tied to experience…having confidence in your skills to deal with unexpected rain (one example: pitch your shelter and ride it out), and the willingness to maybe not be completely dry :)

[Dale Wambaugh]

Also, I would argue that raingear is an avenue of attack…if you simply don’t take it!  If there is little to no chance of rain, you can save the full weight of that gear.  Admittedly, the willingness to do this is fairly closely tied to experience…having confidence in your skills to deal with unexpected rain (one example: pitch your shelter and ride it out), and the willingness to maybe not be completely dry :)

I am loath to ever recommend this. Some items are life-saving and an unexpected rain storm (or snow) and the threat of hypothermia is too great. In the Southwest deserts maybe, but not in most of North America and similar climates. Cut the handle off your toothbrush, go dirty, live on peanut butter and granola bars for a week, but always have your Ten Essentials.

 

We went nearly 60 days in Western Washington with no rain this summer. It was *weird* when it did rain, but if you trust your life to the weatherman here, I want to sell you a condo in the Space Needle :)

Find light rain gear, but take it with you.

 

[JCH]

I am comfortable not carring rain gear for a one or maybe 2 night trip if the forecast is right.  I do not recommend, and would not myself, stay out longer than that without some kind of rain wear. With that slight addendum, I agree with Dale. Note that my use of the term “Experience” very much includes knowledge of the area you are in, it’s weather patterns and possible temperature ranges.  It is totally possible to be safe outdoors without rain gear if the conditions are right. That said, being stupid is never recommended.

[Mina Loomis]

I have been rained on in the southwest Texas desert when there was no rain in the forecast.  Now, to be sure, had I gotten wet from rain on that trip it wouldn’t have been dangerous because the weather was warm and we would have dried out quickly.  But usually our trips are under not-hot conditions (higher elevations, spring/fall/Texas winter) when getting a soaking would not be wise.  Plus on many trips I have youth and families along, for whose safety I am responsible, so that reduces my margin for putting myself at risk.

JCH suggested: “If you feel like you are at that point where each item you are carrying is as light as it can get, or as light as you are willing to go (safety, convenience, cost), then its likely time to look at eliminating things from your pack.  After each trip, perform an inventory and place everything you never touched during the trip in a separate pile.  Seriously consider not packing those things next time. IMO, a reduction in the  comfort of your pack in an effort to reduce total load weight is a losing strategy…all-day pack comfort is everything and completely worth a few ounces…some would argue it’s worth an extra pound.”

I agree with this and do an inventory as suggested.  I pretty much do use everything except maybe minor items like small lengths of tape (if I end up with no injuries or equipment damage to fix).  Also, still working on dialing in food/water needs, not in base-weight but can make a big difference in carry-weight if I get it wrong.

It’s been a few years since I’ve posted a packing list (on the proper forum) for BPL to tear apart.  Maybe I should have another go at that. : )

[Dale Wambaugh]

I do have a PNW mountain trail prejudice on rain gear. I’ve seen 45f 4th of July at 3500′.  If camping near a peak you might not see direct sunlight until late morning and if it was/is raining you might be in a cold cloud and dark forest trails the rest of the day. You and your down will stay wet and it won’t be as warm as a Texas summer day!

[Jeff]

Has anyone used the new Zpacks Vertice yet? Thoughts?

[Author]

Posts