Another Rainwear thread

[Todd T]

We use silnylon ponchos.

Not long ago I got my first sil poncho. I’ve never used a poncho before because none of them fit me, but I got a custom one from Luke’s Ultralight just before his accident(s). I’m impressed so far, though I haven’t had it in the rain yet. :)

I’ll see whether it works, but two things I’m sure of: when it’s actually raining, “breathable” is a silly feature, and DWR is neither D nor WR.

[Mina Loomis]

A lot to digest here, especially after getting home early this morning from an overnight cross-country plane ride.  What I am hearing is that most folks have favorites in the lightweight 2.5 category or the somewhat heavier 3.0 category, but mostly don’t face much rain.  That DWR is a problem if rain continues more than a day or so.  That propore (DriDucks) is as good or better with respect to the rain–until it isn’t.  That ponchos and the more specialized Packa are great for the active hiking part of things because of the ventilation.

In looking up the suggestions I also find that the choices for women are way more limited, especially on the pants.

Why worry about pants?  Question relevant to (1) womens availability and (2) poncho/Packa use.  Because:  I am hiking in a skirt and, if it’s chilly, some Smartwool long underwear bottoms I have, or else some REI synthetic ones.  (“Leggings” for short.)  Why?  Recently my skin seems to have changed (I am 66) and the inner seams of pants or shorts chafe on a long hike.  Lanacane anti-chafe gel doesn’t make it stop, and hydropel no longer exists.  My Purple Rain Adventure Skirt is very comfortable, but it is like wearing shorts and sometimes the weather is too chilly for shorts or a skirt alone without something for the lower legs.  So, leggings on.  Raining?  If only a little while, or light rain, no problem.  If soaking rain all day or in camp, *not OK*.  And a poncho or Packa does not cover this situation.  As much as I like ponchos otherwise.

A 3-day steady cold rain, as referenced above, is somewhat beyond what I’ve experienced, but we hope to do more longer hikes after my husband retires at the end of this month.  I have often, however, encountered all-day cold rain in locations and seasons where it is not the “expected” hiking conditions.  This includes the Sierra in July and Guadalupe Mts. in March; neither time was said rain in the forecast.  So I am not willing to say “it hardly ever rains where I am going so I can skip the all-day protection.”

I am not exactly UL because I need to carry shelter, cook kit, and other shared items for 2 people, but my usual base weight for a longer trip (5-7 days usually) is about 11 lbs., 13ish with Bearikade.  H can’t carry as much because of 3 back surgeries.  I am not very big so I am trying to avoid switching to the kind of burlier rain suit (like the Arc’teryx) that runs a pound or more for the 2 pieces.

Wondering, after all the detailed input you all have given, if the best approach might be to stay with the DriDucks and just order a new set on a shorter cycle–maybe 2 years–each time, to avoid failure during a trip?  Or maybe get new DD now and then consider the OutDry (no DWR) next spring when it is available again in my size?

[Roger Caffin]

Sometimes we carry overpants as well as our ponchos. My wife favours PU-coated nylon trousers from Peter Storm (135 g) – partly because she has several pairs of them ‘in stock’, while I favour some old uncoated GoLite Whims (109 g). The Whims have a very fine tight weave but are not ‘waterproof’; but they seem to work just fine.

Both are a far cry in weight from the old very expensive 3-layer GTX things (530 g) which we started with. Curiously, we find our current stuff just as effective.

Cheers

[Paul S.]

For leg coverage you can get a rain skirt. I just got a couple from Over Mountain Gear and they’re cheap and quite long. If you needed full coverage then gaiters would do the trick to cover the last exposed bits.

[Matthew / BPL]

Mina, I’m a little confused about what you are trying to achieve with your covering from the legs down but if you hike in a skirt and leggings a rain skirt seems like a good solution. It’s breathable, easy to take on and off.

DWR pants are not going to be D or WR for long.

I like the suggestion above of a skirt and gaiters.

Have you seen Sierra Designs rain chaps? Those seem like a nice solution achieving with some breathability without relying on DWR. A Packa or poncho would cover those nicely.

[Mina Loomis]

Would a rain skirt and gaiters provide wind protection and warmth?  Would adding gaiters negate the weight savings?  (Argh, so many questions!)

GoLite is of course gone and MyTrail doesn’t seem to have anything like the old wind pants.  Patagonia has Houdini pants but the light ones (not the Alpine) are only for Men and I’m not big enough to fit Mens sizes.  I have an old pair of Sierra Designs PU coated pants but it was my son’s when he was a teenager and it doesn’t fit me very well, plus it is kind of bulky.  Will probably use that next week, Pecos Wilderness, rain in the forecast every day, but no time to order anything else at this point.

Wish I had more time/trips to experiment with different options, to learn.  Many of my trips are with the Camp Fire teens, though, and I can’t afford to experiment on those trips.

You have all been super helpful.

Current thinking:  Order more DriDucks for now.  Make a rain skirt and experiment with it not just on trips but at home whenever it rains.  I used to feel like I had my kit pretty well dialed-in, but now hoping to do some harder and longer trips.

[Mina Loomis]

I had not seen the SD Rain Chaps.  That does look interesting.

 

[Mina Loomis]

“Mina, I’m a little confused about what you are trying to achieve with your covering from the legs down but if you hike in a skirt and leggings a rain skirt seems like a good solution. It’s breathable, easy to take on and off.”

I guess I am trying to accomplish several functions with one item.  Keep leggings dry.  Block wind.  Adding up to not getting all cold when hiking stops and I have camp chores that keep me outside, or need to be out and about in camp because of the kids.

Kind of late tonight but I’ll do a search on MYOG and see if there’s something on making rain skirts.

[Roger Caffin]

Would a rain skirt and gaiters provide wind protection and warmth?
A rain skirt will keep the rain off if the wind is very light. But high wind is another matter.
We only put our rain trousers on when the wind gets up, the rain gets heavy and the temperature drops way down. A skirt under those conditions would not be a real lot of use.

You are going to get wet feet, period. The water will work its way up your calves regardless of gaiters. To mis-quote Gore: “You are guaranteed to get wet”. Stop worrying about wet and only worry about warm.

Cheers

[JCH]

Mina, perhaps we are overlooking an obvious solution?  Your OP seems to indicate that you have been happy enough with the DD with the exception of their durability.  Many others like DD as well and it is a very viable, proven, and commonly chosen option.

If we look at this not from a functional view, but financial, the OR Helium jacket and pants will run you $280 list.  I would not expect them to last more than 3-4 years.  A full DD set is $15 on amazon. That means you could replace the DD ~18 times over a 4 year span (or once every ~80 days) for the same outlay as the OR kit.  A bit of repair tape in your emergency kit and maybe you are good to go?

[Alexander S]

I finally narrowed it down to SD chaps and cagoule for our rainy PNW. No more steamy constricting pants and I get the ventilation of a poncho without the flapping around.

The only thing better would be if Dry Ducks made a set, though I suppose I could craft some chaps out of the pants they offer.

[Mina Loomis]

“You are going to get wet feet, period. The water will work its way up your calves regardless of gaiters. To mis-quote Gore: “You are guaranteed to get wet”. Stop worrying about wet and only worry about warm.”

Roger, I totally agree with this one.  I live in central Texas and never get much practice at cold, so am a cold weenie wherever I go.  We were in the Sierra summer 2011 when it was so snowy and wet, melt water running down the trails, many high creek crossings.  Our trail runners and socks were soaked no matter what.  All the waterproof boot people were constantly taking their boots off and putting them back on, and I am convinced they all got wet anyway.  We could just keep walking.  That first foot-dunk in the creek is liberating, after that you can just walk right through and it doesn’t make any difference.

My primary goal for rainwear is to keep warm.

JCH, I am starting to come around to your conclusion too.  I have been worried that I am cutting corners too much relying on the DriDucks, and that I should do the research and spring for the “good stuff.”  But this discussion has changed my thinking somewhat.  For the big US brands (OR, MHW, Marmot, TNF, Arc’teryx, for example) my costs are lower than normal because as an REI employee I have access to some really good outdoor industry prodeals, but DD are still cheaper.  And light.  And work for a while.  I normally carry a bit of tape anyway.  Maybe the solution is just to replace them at shorter intervals *before* they start to fail.  While my research continues, for the moment I’ve ordered a new set from Amazon (2-day shipping) to have for next week.

Thanks!

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Mina

It works this way. When you buy a $300 item from a shop, the retailer makes close to $150 profit. (Yes, the markup is usually about 100%.). But when you buy a competing $30 item, the retailer makes only $15 profit – for about the same amount of sales effort. So which item is the retailer going to try to sell you?

This explains why there is so much marketing spin out there for the high-end items – GTX jackets, leather boots, etc. It is also why you don’t see the light-weight joggers we favour in the gear shops: there simply is not the profit margin there when you can go online for them.

Cheers

[Brett Peugh]

I would say just to keep using your DriDucks, I just wish they made them like they did 8 years ago or so, a bit more durable.  I am a bit rough on my stuff so I went to the following systems for durability,

Warm weather:  Long poncho and trash compactor bag rain skirt with toggle.  $36

Cold weather:  Paramo style system using a thin 100wt hooded fleece sweatshirt and a PCU level 4 windshirt with the trash compactor bag rain skirt.  $101

 

[Mina Loomis]

Brett, I am familiar with the 100 wt fleece (like TNF TKA items) but I am not familiar with what is a “PCU level 4 windshirt.”  And I thought Paramo was woolens that tighten up like felt in wet weather, traditional (as in ancestral) but heavier.  I could use some enlightenment.

Plus, in Texas at least we are very likely to have warm or even hot weather *and* cold wet weather on the same trip.  I have learned to be prepared for either/or.

 

[Mina Loomis]

P. S. OK I see Paramo is a brand of outdoor wear including rain jackets but I remain ignorant of the connection with your description.

[Dena Kelley]

Rainwear is an area I completely diverge from the UL paradigm to the “I want to stay dry” paradigm. I don’t use waterproof-breathable rainwear any longer because it doesn’t work. Yes, it works fine in light precip, or when it’s really new, but after it’s been broken in or when it gets tested in a torrential downpour, it always wets out and it always fails. And it doesn’t even breathe that well, so what’s the point? I switched to impermeable and my current choice is a Helly Hansen polyurethane coat. Mine isn’t really heavy, but definitely heavier than a DriDucks or pretty much anything considered UL. But it succeeds in keeping me dry under any conditions. In Alaska our rain is cold and staying dry is important, so the tradeoff is worth it to me.

[Roger Caffin]

‘Waterproof’ doesn’t work for me.
The rain hits my face and neck and runs down inside my chest.
The rain hits my hands and wicks up inside my sleeves.
The rain hits my feet, gets my socks wet, and wicks up my trousers.
The cold rain chills the fabric, my sweat condenses on the inside, and I get wet all over.
The sweat on my back can’t get out through any ‘permeable’ coating because my pack is in the way.

Pity about that.
Cheers

[Anonymous]

I designed an UL WPB modified poncho that is also fairly durable. It’s blows everything I’ve ever previously tried, out of the water. I still bring a highly water resistant wind jacket, and so arms are not a big issue if it’s raining super heavy and/or cold.

I’ve tried regular non permeable ponchos (silnylon and cuben) and while they are decent, I still often found my chest area over sweaty and hot. Not so with the version I came up with.

It’s a combination of a UL silnylon fabric that wasn’t very water proof to begin with and which I ran under my sewing machine non threaded while the fabric was folded.  Sewed to that is “kite” tyvek (1443R type), but only on the top and sides–the bottom piece of tyvek is a bit shorter and not flush with the silnylon.  That’s too allow any excess rain that might get through the silnylon layer to drain down and out.

No hood.  I took a wide brimmed hat, and sewed soft velcro to 4 areas. Took a highly water resistant, but slightly air permeable fabric and cut to shape and sewed corresponding velcro to that. It’s a regular hat when I want/need it, and it’s a WPB hat when I need it.

I even modified a pair of mostly nylon (with a touch of cotton) shorts to go along with it.  Sewed some soft velcro to the bottom edge and quickly sewed up some matching pant legs made out of EPIC fabric to go with them.

Entire system is pretty light weight and more important to me–highly adaptable.  Wore it on a CT hike.

Btw, when it’s particularly wet and nasty, I recommend wearing a fishnet type baselayer or Cap 4 type baselayer in combo with any rain wear system.  It helps you from feeling as chilled.  You can still wear a more regular baselayer OVER that, and/or a windjacket in combo, but the fishnet or Cap 4 really helps when it’s really wet, cold, and/or intense.

It’s easy and cheap to make your own fishnet system btw, and more comfortable than a lot of the other ones.  Get some of that super bulky, chunky yarn–the real thick stuff.  Get some of the iron on non sew stuff (the good quality stuff that bonds strongly), take a slightly over sized, thin, breathable, wicking shirt, turn it inside out and bond that thick yarn on so that it keeps the shirt fabric away from your skin and maintains some constant air space in most areas (especially your core).  Voila, cheap, easy, comfortable “fishnet” type baselayer.

I tried this once with polypropylene cord/rope, and while it technically worked, it’s not nearly as comfortable as using thick yarn. It was also overly stiff.

I like the yarns that are primarily synthetic (usually acrylic), but have like 20% to 30% wool. These are less stinky than non treated polyester shirts for example. There’s just enough wool to cut down on odor some, and not enough for the over saturation issue of wool to be an issue (and even if the wool content gets a little soggy, you’re primarily dealing with air space in such a system).

 

[Brett Peugh]

You can replicate a Paramo type system with a  hooded Cap 4 or thin 100wt fleece (that are more fuzzy on the inside and tighter weave on the outside) and a hooded PCU Level 4 (Epic type) military wind shirt (Epic is a fabric where the decent water resistance is in the material, not a coating like DWR so it breaths really well ).  It will not keep 100% of the water out and you will get a little moist in a long downpour but you are pumping that water and vapor out and keeping warm also.  Richard Nisley has talked about this.

 

It you want 100% waterproof try to find one of the old OR Rampart coats that was 100% waterproof in the fabric with a PU coating and that had huge zips from the hem to the elbow.

 

Personally I gave up on the DWR and 2.5 and 3 layer things because you have to keep proofing the DWR in addition to the pores getting clogged or overwhelmed.  And unless it has big holes in it, it is not breathable.

 

[Anonymous]

Brett, in the modified poncho I had made, I don’t have to worry about DWR. The perforated, not tightly woven enough silnylon will basically have permanent (or nearly so) DWR via the silicone treatment, and the Tyvek layer underneath never needed it to begin because the surface tension of polyethylene is low enough to begin with–hence also more or less permanently DWR.

You still have to occasionally rinse and less so wash it though to maintain it.

Paramo and similar concepts can work well too, and especially so for cooler temps, but I find it too hot in a lot of conditions.  My modified poncho is so breathable, it keeps me as cool as possible in temps and conditions not hot not enough to just go “commando” or so to speak  There is also the fact that high density polyethylene is more conductive of a material than commonly worn materials/fibers, and in combo with so much air circulation/permeability allowed, dissipates your body heat better.

The nice side benefit of it besides all the above, is that I get a pack cover at the same time.

[Dean F.]

The Columbia OutDry jackets look… highly promising.  Not needing a DWR coating is a BIG selling point IMHO, though of course they still won’t really be breathable despite the add copy.  But I don’t think they’ve been out long enough for a decent long-term review.  And Gore also has a similar product that they released to compete with OutDry.  Both companies have decently light jackets though they are marketed to trail runners not hikers, so I’m not certain of durability.  I think the Columbia Caldorado was just released- I saw it on an outdoor retailer show thread or something.  It was 6 oz.  They’re also make an 8 oz one.  They make one now called the Ex Light, but I can’t find any info on weight.

[Brett Peugh]

I tried out two of the three variations of OutDry yesterday at the local camping store.  They seemed like thin version of the old rubber slickers.  I believe they are waterproof but they didn’t seem very breathable unless you opened up the outside of the mesh pockets.  I think Nisley pegged an older version at around .17 CFM and I would not say they are much higher than that.

[JCH]

To expand of what Brett said…

If most of us can agree that the “B” part of “WPB” is pretty much a myth and all marketing spin, then I fail to see the point of this product.  For much less money one can get an air-impermeable garment with any number of ventilation designs (pit zips, poncho, Packa, etc) for much less money and lower weight.

Were I asked about a parka+pants solution, I’d likely recommend a DriDucks suit before I would spending hundreds on any new “WPB” technical fabric.

[Dean F.]

Yes, because of they way they are made they don’t need a face fabric, so the PTFE feels “rubbery”, and a lot of people are turned off by that because they equate it with such old monstrosities as you mentioned.  But it’s still “breathable”, or at least certainly more so than a rubber rain slicker (though admittedly .17 CFM isn’t awesome it is PTFE).  And the lighter ones will presumably be thinner, and thus more “breathable”.  Certainly I like that they are expanding the line into lighter jackets.

But, anyway, I have come to not think of ANY of the supposedly “WPB” gear as really breathable.  I think Sierra Designs was on the right track when they just went with a non-breathable but well-ventilated jacket.  But theoretically, a WPB and well-ventilated jacket would be even better.

My evaluation of the OutDry stuff as “highly promising” was based upon the improved lifetime of the product without needing to replace the DWR coating, as compared to the more traditional WPB products.  As such, they do look promising.  I want a decent long-term review, but I can’t find one.

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