A few questions to those who carry a gun while hiking/backpacking

[Gumbo]

I’m not a gun person, am horrified by if the impact of so many guns in this country, and completely agree with @book’s comments re the many things we could carry that would be more likely to save a life.

That said, I disagree with @cameronm-aka-backstroke’s call to refrain from discussing guns on BPL. While I share many of his concerns, and had misgivings when the initial post was posted, I’ve been very impressed with how this thread has played out.

A big part of the extreme polarization in this country seems to stem from people refusing to listen to arguments with which they disagree, and this thread strikes me as a great example of differing views respectfully discussed — something I’d love to see more of nationally…

[Herman]

The original poster had a question. I provided my input earlier. I am confused why people log on to post comments that don’t address the question. If you have no information to provide the poster, then don’t post. There was no solicitation for people’s feelings on this topic, just a legit question on carrying a gun in the wilderness. If you don’t have anything to add, then just move on.

 

[BPLwiia]

The chance of every needing a firearm are exceedingly slim but if you need it and don’t have you’re in deep trouble. Years ago, I encountered two pitbulls who appeared out of no where on a very remote trail.  I stopped in my tracks and once they saw me they began inching forward. My heart began racing but I stood my ground and grabbed a down tree limb along side the trail. They made the decision it wasn’t worth the fight and took off. Never saw any owners before or after the incident.

That potential misfortune was the reason I began carrying. Henceforth, I would never allow myself to be in a position where I could not defend myself. Had the decision gone the other way, and the pitbulls  decided to attack, I was toast. Now, I carry a Glock 40MOS (10mm) in a HPG chest pack. It is completely concealed and no one ever knows I have it nor do I ever tell anyone on the trail I have it.

No one has to be frightened by it as no one ever sees or knows about it. Nor is it dangerous. I never carry it with a round in the chamber as I can’t envision a scenario when I wouldn’t have time to rack the slide.

Now, I always carry bear spray and would deploy it first if the pitbull, or similar, scenario happened again. I have no desire to hurt any animal. I feel very comfortable that my method makes no one feel uncomfortable, is safe, and will provide me the benefit of being able to defend myself in the most dire of situations rather than become a helpless victim. I call that a win/win/win scenario.

 

[Kattt]

“A big part of the extreme polarization in this country seems to stem from people refusing to listen to arguments with which they disagree, and this thread strikes me as a great example of differing views respectfully discussed — something I’d love to see more of nationally…”

I agree completely. The entire post, really.

[Jerry Adams]

+1

[Kevin B]

I’m learning from this discussion.  I have been considering my first purchase of a handgun for supplemental protection during archery bear and elk hunts.  I’ve owned and shot long guns since they were taller than me, but handguns make me a bit nervous.  However, the more I creep silently through tight canyons before dark or sitting motionless for hours next to stock tanks has me thinking that maybe the risk equation (risk to self vs. risk of bear mauling) is starting to get close enough to justify carrying a side arm ( I fully acknowledge that I’m probably still putting myself in more danger by carrying than the real risk of a bear encounter that can only be mitigated with a handgun, but I can’t shake the perceived risk of tracking a bear with my arrow in it.)

Being a BPL member for a while now, I was leaning toward the more compact, lighter weight 911 models or LCP models, but the comments above regarding how much harder they are to shoot with good form were a surprise to me, and now my focus is on the mid size glocks and now I think I may be leaning towards a caliber larger than 9mm.

Thanks to everyone sharing their experience with packing in the backcountry.

[Mark Jones]

This thread has been informative and I find it appropriate for this community. Donna is seeking information from the BPL community because of an experience that happened while backpacking. As a long distance hiker, when the topic of hiking comes up with someone learning of my experiences for the first time, there are two inevitable questions: You hiked alone? Did you carry a gun? I am sure that many members of this community have had similar conversations.

Safety is a paramount concern of any outdoor adventure. This thread addresses the use of firearms as a means to improve ones safety in the participation of backpacking.

I am a gun owner. I do not carry on the trail for many of the reasons presented here. I have a close friend that does carry on the trail. We have discussed our decisions and have mutual respect for each other’s choice. It is a matter of choice and regulation. It makes for an interesting discussion. Thank you to all who have participated in this thread.

Happy Trails!

[Ryan Potterton]

A friend and I had a close call with a man with a machete in the Kalalau Valley in Kauai. On the hike out we kept seeing stuff along the trail: a guitar, a cookset, a bag of bran flakes. The stuff was  all along the trail, behind the bushes and rocks. It was odd, but we left it where we found it. When we arrived at the the valley we started scouting around for a camp site. We wandered around a little looking.

Unexpectedly, a very crazed and enraged man, waving a machete, charged at us shouting. He was very dirty, and his shorts were falling apart. His machete was just a blade, the missing handle had been replaced with a sock wrapped loosly with electrical tape. He had pressured speech and was moving erraticly, demanding that we return the stuff we stole. My friend put his palms out and tried to talk him down while I circled around behind him and picked up a rock. He charged at my friend and I thought I was going to have to smash him in the head with the rock when he stopped short and raced off muttering. We were both shaken and unnerved. We felt watched and could not relax for the entire trip.

In Washington, where I live, I usually carry a Glock 26 on my left shoulder strap in an Outdoor Research pouch that I can draw from fast enough and dosen’t look “tactical”. It has a kydex trigger guard that is tied into the pouch and pulls free when you pull the gun out. In Hawaii; however, this in not a legal option and I thought it would be resonably safe–“Aloha” and all that.

What I learned: It did not happen where I would have predicted, I thought we were in a safe place. It was SO sudden, there was no time to prepare, you are ether ready or your not.

I am sure this kind of thing is extremely uncommon and will probly never happen to me again. You will have to do your own risk/benefit analysis.

[Curtis B.]

This is a fascinating conversation. Kudos to all who’ve dealt dispationately with the question at hand rather than resorting to outgroup derogation.

I teach women-only protection and firearm safety classes. In our classes we teach that every woman has the right to choose how to defend herself, even if that means never owning/carrying and relying on the police. That choice needs to be borne out of a risk calculation and not necessarily fear of an improbable outcome.  The beauty of this is that here in the US you get choose whether you buy a gun, carry it, or not, having fully evaluated and balanced the risks. The choice not to own or carry is as valid as anyone else’s choice.

If you do decide to explore firearms further, the #1 criteria in selecting a firearm is its intendend purpose. As has been described previously, the four-legged threats require a much bigger firearm than the two-legged threats. Which threat is a greater concern for you?

The #2 criteria is selecting a caliber that you can comfortably fire enough to stop a threat. A well-placed shot with a small caliber can stop a threat, either the two-legged or four-legged variety. So many people believe that you need a monster caliber to stop a threat. For the four-legged variety, you absolutely do. But those monster calibers are super heavy, hard to shoot, and just uncomfortable enough that you don’t end up practicing enough to be extremely proficient and accurate with. The FBI has recently restandardized on the 9mm for two-legged threats. Why? Because they are easy to practice with, easy to control, and sufficient to stop a threat. Which caliber and size of firearm can you comfortably and accurately shoot?

Another myth is that having a firearm makes you proficient. But when the fight, flight, or freeze response kicks in it is a different story. Proficiency in shooting at paper is hard won. It is much, much harder when the target is moving, and harder still when it is charging at you. Find some good introductory classes. Call and talk to the instructors. Run away from the Tactical Timmys with all of their horror stories and braggadocio. Find someone who understands and respects new shooters who simply want an entre into the sport. Learn ways to spike your heart rate and practice in stressful situations.

You have plenty of time. You’ve been safe so far. You can examine your options and make an informed choice.

Good luck!

 

[David Thomas]

I was leaning toward the more compact, lighter weight 911 models or LCP models, but the comments above regarding how much harder they are to shoot with good form were a surprise to me, and now my focus is on the mid size glocks and now I think I may be leaning towards a caliber larger than 9mm.

Kevin: Guns that are light for their caliber are definitely a lot less fun to shoot and can lead to bad habits like flinching in anticipation of the recoil.  Or just leaving it in the gun safe, never going to the range to practice, and only carrying “for real” without recurrent training. Two classic approaches to that (one expensive and the other less expensive):

• get two guns: two that have the same action (single or double), same sights, same safety, same clip release, etc, but one is heavy and the other light.  Then most of your practice at the range is with the heavier gun with less recoil and you develop better habits and probably better aim.  Or two guns that have identical operation but in different calibers.  That can be as extreme as two 1911-style semi-auto pistols, one in .22LR and the other in .45 ACP.  Or there are conversion kits (new barrel, new slide) for a 9mm or 10mm Glock to fire .22 LR.
• get a gun that handles a hot load for what you need but also fires a milder load for practice.  The classic version of this is a .357 revolver that is a big round against humans, but .357 magnum revolvers also all shoot .38 special ammo which doesn’t kick as much.  All calibers have hotter and milder loads, but some guns have a wider range between the hottest ammo it can handle and the mildest that will still cycle the action (in a semi-auto).  It is presumed that in the moment, you’ll be a little jacked up on adrenaline and a bit more recoil will be the least of your concerns.

[Doug G]

Donna,

When I carry it is a Ruger SP101 in a chest rig.   I like revolvers for safety and simplicity.  The SP101 is stainless, double action (you are highly unlikely to have an accidental discharge), and relatively light for the power.  I carry it when I have my young daughter along.  Mainly makes me feel better about being able to react to any situation.

My wife loves shooting it, so maybe you should check it out.  No slides and safeties that can be confusing for new shooters.

If you carry while hiking a chest or shoulder rig is best I think.  The weapon doesn’t do you any good strapped on, or in a pack.

I have had tweakers in WA eye me.  So it is a good deterrent for that too, especially when you have a child with you and a physical confrontation is out of the question.

Anyway…

[Luke Schmidt]

I’ve had to work through all this recently because in my world I work with local native youth and take them on wilderness outings. I will soon be packing a handgun on wilderness trips for two reasons.

• My job is to get kids outside and keep their families happy so they send their kids back. My theory is if a gun causes one more mom to say “Yes my kid can go with you” than its worth the weight (this is Alaska no parent is going to say “Oh guns, my kid can’t go.”).
• Having a lot of kids in the woods increases the odds that something will go sideways. Am I willing to take that risk? Yes because if kids stay inside all the time the risks of smoking, drugs, or heart attack are probably higher. But at the same time I <i></i>need to be able to sleep at night if something goes wrong. I can carry and use a gun effectively so I feel like I should because not doing so would basically be putting my kids at risk for a lighter pack. And yes we also carry an InReach and a pretty extensive first aid kit as well. I do things differently with kids than I do on a personal trip.

I took a 5 day “Bear Guard” course and an additional 1 day course dedicated to handguns. I experimented with shooting different handguns (.44, 357, 10mm and .460 Rowland). I also looked for actual reports of people using handguns on bears (it happens more often than I thought up here). Here is what I’ve concluded.

• For non-grizzly country we are looking at three threats, predatory black bears, predatory mountain lions and people. As a general rule black bears do not attack defensively like grizzlies so if a black bear attacks (and you did nothing stupid) you can assume its predatory. For a predatory animal you need to hurt it so you don’t look like an easy meal. For these purposes a small 9mm or a 5 shot 357 works well and is pretty easy to carry.
• For Alaska we have brown bears so things get trickier. There are some lighter .44s and 10mm Glocks. Loaded they all hover around 2 pounds to 2.5 pounds. Not SUL but not too bad for me.
• For carrying things I like the chest holsters. I carried a .44 mag on a test run over the last weekend and it wasn’t too bad. If I was to carry down south I’d probably be more discrete. The side pocket of a pack, a cargo pocket a fanny pack are all options.
• Big revolvers are hard to shoot quickly and accurately. Autoloaders like the 10mm Glock are less powerful but you get more rounds in less time. Something to consider.
• Bear spray is great, I never hike without it. If in doubt you can spray the bear, with a gun you better be really, really sure its a life or death situation because killing a bear in self defense will create a major hassle with the authorities later on. Also if a bear is on top of your friend you can spray away because its non-lethal. However there are some situations where bear spray doesn’t work. Studies that say its 98% effective seem to include lots of bears sprayed that were not supper intent on killing someone. I know several people up here who’ve had spray not work on a bear that was really ticked off.

I’ll probably tote a .44 or 10mm on basically every trip we take. If a kid gets hurt I’ll be able to sleep at night knowing I did everything in my power to keep them safe. On the other hand a friend of mine tried to learn to shoot and was not comfortable with it. I would not think less of her at all if she took kids out with just bear spray. Is there a small chance that a kid will get hurt in a situation where a gun would have worked better than bear spray? Maybe but its so low I wouldn’t expect her to devote lots of time and money to training for it (unless she enjoyed it). There simply isn’t enough time in life to become an expert on every possible emergency you could face.

 

[Donna C]

Thanks to everyone with their advice and stories. It shows that there are many reasons to carry or not. I do hike solo at times, backpack solo as well, often stealth camping. I’ve written down some of the handguns suggested and will head to some of the local ranges and get all of the info I need to make a rational decision. And, here’s the thing, even if I do get a gun, it doesn’t mean I have to take it with me all the time, as some have stated. I may just need it for home use, if my house gets robbed while I am sleeping…which happened to me in the past. I was getting ready to move from the city to a safer area and 2 drunks busted into my apartment. It was July, hot, and I was sleeping in well, very little, and I knew I was toast if I got out of bed. So in my deepest and most confident voice I yelled at them to get the *%$# out and if they don’t I have a shot gun and will use it! They ran. I shook. I never got out of bed. And I had no weapon.

[Jerry Adams]

That’s terrible that happened.  Good you survived without physical harm.  I hope it doesn’t screw with you mentally too bad, I can’t imagine.  What is wrong with some men anyway?  I can see why owning a gun would help you feel safer, at least you’re doing something about it.

Maybe, also, a self defense class.  I’ve seen them on TV news.  With other women that have had to put up with such s###.  Maybe therapeutic if nothing else to be with other people.

[Ken Thompson]

Would be great to have an effective, non lethal means to subdue someone. I don’t want it to be a choice of life or death. I just want it/them to stop whatever they are doing and go away/let me leave. All this technology and powder and ball is still the viable option.  Somebody isn’t trying hard enough.

Been an interesting read with just a few Chaffy posts. Safeties are off over there if you want to fire away.

[Lowell Mills]

“Get two guns: two that have the same action (single or double), same sights, same safety, same clip release, etc, but one is heavy and the other light.  Then most of your practice at the range is with the heavier gun with less recoil and you develop better habits and probably better aim.  Or two guns that have identical operation but in different calibers.  That can be as extreme as two 1911-style semi-auto pistols, one in .22LR and the other in .45 ACP.  Or there are conversion kits (new barrel, new slide) for a 9mm or 10mm Glock to fire .22 LR.

Get a gun that handles a hot load for what you need but also fires a milder load for practice.  The classic version of this is a .357 revolver that is a big round against humans, but .357 magnum revolvers also all shoot .38 special ammo which doesn’t kick as much.  All calibers have hotter and milder loads, but some guns have a wider range between the hottest ammo it can handle and the mildest that will still cycle the action (in a semi-auto).  It is presumed that in the moment, you’ll be a little jacked up on adrenaline and a bit more recoil will be the least of your concerns.”

 

+1, great training suggestions from David.

[Jerry Adams]

I wouldn’t be too worried about lethal means for someone that breaks into a house and tries to do something violent : )

On the other hand, I think that’s fairly rare for most people.  And if it is rare, worrying about it could be more damaging.

[Lowell Mills]

“On the other hand, I think that’s fairly rare for most people.  And if it is rare, worrying about it could be more damaging.”

On the other hand, a lot of things are relatively rare: house fires, tornados, car accidents, motorcycle wrecks, home invasions.  How many have actually been saved by: a fire extinguisher, a safe room, home owners’ insurance, seat belts, car insurance, a helmet, or the defensive use of a gun when the police are still minutes away?  What matters are the potential consequences; once catastrophic  enough, the rarity doesn’t matter so much.  Being prepared with some or all of the options above may make for peace of mind as well as a better night’s sleep…

For the OP, I agree with hidden chest carry: rapid access but with the tactical advance of concealed carry.  This would be for two-legged predators: a good possible option is the SIG Sauer P238 in .380 ACP.  Very light (1.2 lbs fully loaded), reliable, compact, excellent single action trigger, external safety for safe carry with a round in the chamber (make sure you train with clicking off the safety immediately after a safe draw), much more controllable than the LCP, and the Lehigh Defense .380 Xtreme Penetrator rounds (see multiple YouTube videos on its effectiveness in ballistic gelatin) have negated many of its drawbacks versus 9mm.

[BlackHatGuy]

“Would be great to have an effective, non lethal means to subdue someone.”

Most states allow people to own a stun gun (though not all), so that’s one possibility. I did find this interesting, though (from Criminal Defense Lawyer website): “When looked at as a whole, however, it’s generally easier to own, carry, and use a firearm in the United States than it is to do the same with a stun gun, whose capacity to injure and kill is vastly less than that of a firearm. Why is this so?

The short answer is that there is no National Rifle Association for stun gun owners: No well-funded and politically powerful lobby protects the rights of stun gun owners to possess and use their devices; no one seriously uses the devices to hunt, and there are no emotional, historical, or familial arguments to be made in favor of stun gun owners’ rights (when was the last time you heard someone argue for the right to use his grandfather’s antique stun gun?).”

I have an alarm system in my home (non-contractual, I installed it myself and I don’t pay any monthly fee). If someone breaks a window or opens a door while it’s engaged, a loud siren will sound. I think that’s enough to deter most criminals (perhaps not all, but most).

[Garrett]

With the exception of dogs, a handgun will not protect you from wildlife. A handgun “could” protect you from a person, however, I would not feel comfortable using anything less than a 9mm/45ACP for self defense. I think firearms on the trail offer more physiological protection anything else. Personally, I wouldn’t backpack in any area where I felt uncomfortable enough to bring a firearm.

 

[Pedestrian]

“Personally, I wouldn’t backpack in any area where I felt uncomfortable enough to bring a firearm.”

The sanest line on this entire (very reasonable) thread! Kudos @gtturner1988!

[Ryan Potterton]

I have had the unfortunate experience of having to defend myself and/or my family from attacking dogs four times. Twice on walks in my neighborhood: the first time three neglected german shepherds got out of a hole in a fence and attacked my pregnant wife. The second time the same three dogs attacked my wife while she was pushing a stroller. (We thought the fence was repaired.) Two more times other dogs in a pack came into my yard and chased my cats, chickens, and came after my toddler child.

I am a expert level pistol marksman, I compete and have extensive training. The attacks were so sudden and the dogs were so fast that drawing and shooting before the dogs reached me was impossible. Each time I manuvered myself between my family and the dogs and shouted before I could get one in my sights. The first attack I blocked two dogs, who stopped short, while the third dog ran around me and bit my wife’s leg. The owner was chasing after the dogs and grabbed the biting one and drug it back to his house. The second time I got bit on the forearm trying to hold back an attacking dog that I grabbed by the scruff of the neck. The only time I could have had a shot at a dog was after my wife grabbed my todler son and raced in the house while the dogs attacked my chickens and ran around the yard with several chickens in their mouths. At that point it seemed useless as no humans were in immediate danger anymore.

My point is that they move fast and you don’t often see them until they are within 5 yards or so and are already on top of your family. Maybe a trap or skeet shooter would have better luck than I did at hitting a streaking dog at 5 yards.  I’m just trying to add realistic expectations to the conversation. A gun is not a guarantee. Preaditors (wild, canine, or human)  are usually very good at what they do.

[Garrett]

Ryan, as a prior marksman myself, I can conclude with your response.

Could a handgun take down a bear? Sure.. However, this would be under the most unlikely scenarios like having the firearm already pointed in the animals direction prior to a charge; hitting the vital organs for immediate incapacitation (while its charging at you); using a powerful enough caliber to penetrate the vital organs (10mm); and being able to keep a steady hand for precision during this time.

If we are talking about a mountain lion, then I highly doubt anyone would see it prior to the attack. During an attack, I would be more concerned about covering my neck than reaching for a uncocked gun.

In regards to backcountry human interaction, you would really have to be in a unique situation in order to be able draw your weapon in a timely manner, fire the shot off “legally”, and for it to uphold in court as defense. A home invasion is vastly different than one’s likely circumstance in the woods. A home invasion shows obvious intent prior to the physical altercation and allows one with optimal time to draw their weapon. When the opportunity presents itself, people generally try and catch their victims off guard without drawing much suspicion to their underlining intention.

 

[BPLwiia]

Kevin B said, “Being a BPL member for a while now, I was leaning toward the more compact, lighter weight 911 models or LCP models, but the comments above regarding how much harder they are to shoot with good form were a surprise to me, and now my focus is on the mid size glocks and now I think I may be leaning towards a caliber larger than 9mm.”

I would highly recommend the long-slide 10mm Glock, the G40 MOS. I also have a Glock 17 (9mm) and it jumps around more than the G40. That’s due to the longer 6″ barrel on the G40 and the slightly heavier weight (3 oz).

You have a 10 or 15 round capacity depending on what state you live in and 10mm power especially when using 200gr hardcast flat-nose, bullets from Buffalo Bore or Underwood. In non-brown bear territory, I think a 10mm is an excellent choice for a woods gun.

I prefer, and carry, a big-bore revolver whenever in the woods. A 454 Casull allows you to casually shoot 45 Colt all day long at the range then carry 454 Casull, or hot 45 Colt rounds when in the woods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll–DXOWPyA

 

 

[Eric Blumensaadt]

“RECOIL MANAGEMENT”

This is precisely why I recommended the Ruger LC380, which is the larger compact frame originally designed for the full sized 9 mm round.

To make the recoil more manageable for women Ruger chambered it in the 380 Auto cartridge (known in Europe as the 9 mm kurtz (short).

the .380 Auto’s lower recoil in a compact frame originally made for the full sized 9 mm Parabellum ia much easier for women to control than Ruger’s smaller frame original .380 pistol.

I use this same pistol (LC9s) in 9 mm B/C I’m used to the recoil and manage it well.

BTW, here in the ‘Vegas valley we have had some incidents of MIDDLE school kids “swarming” people, both children and adults, and beating them! This has also been done to cars. Recent police presence in these locales has temporarily stopped the activity but when the police leave you can be sure this “sport” will resume since it offers thrills to the participants.

My answer to this problem of out-of-control kids is bear spray. It’s non-lethal and will certainly stop any “swarming” instantly. I live in a much more peaceful area of the valley but I’ve taken to carrying the smaller canister of bear spray in my console – just in case. I had a swarming incident occur to me back in Erie, PA in the mid ’90s when around 8 Pm one winter night about 30 to 35  kids, again middle school age, began stoning my car with gravel. I won’t recount here what my action was but it was instantaneous and swiftly dispersed the crowd who yelled curses at me as I then sped away. So it can happen anywhere.

So yeah, most of you likely live in more peaceful areas. Here in ‘Vegas is’s mostly peaceful – until it isn’t.  Incidents like home invasions, car jackings, and “swarming” happen here and, as a geezer, I plan to be prepared to defend myself.

Home invasions usually happen in very nice communities, where homes are most likely to have more and better valuables. The criminals involved generally use fast and very violent shock tactics to gain entry and do their robberies. In the past 5 years however, several of these incidents ended with the invaders being shot by homeowners defending themselves against this savagery. As a result the frequency of home invasions have declined a bit. And community/police relations have greatly improved due to concerted police and community group efforts over the past 10 years. In poorer neighborhoods this has helped lower crime rates. I’m proud of this police effort. It has paid good dividends over the years.

 

 

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