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Dry Baking Set Up Questions


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  • #1323213
    Michael Haubert
    BPL Member

    @socalmike

    Locale: So Cal

    I’m interested in hearing about dry baking systems.

    What combination of outer pot/inner pot/ stove/fuel types works for you? I am also very interested in cooking pancakes or sautéing foods on a fry pan, too. So, I’m looking for something that hits from different angles.

    I’m hoping to set something up with my Kmart grease pot, 10 cm Imusa mug, or GSI Bugaboo pot/pan combo (non-stick) for baking muffins and bread, so any inner or outer pots to go along with these would be helpful.

    I’m leaning toward getting a Trangia set up because of the simmer capabilities and cooking with a fry pan. Perhaps the Mini Trangia would work with adding a slightly larger pot as an outer pot for baking?

    Finally, I’ve read mixed things about dry baking with non-stick pots/pans. Some say “don’t do it” because the non-stick material will burn off with high temps over long, sustained periods needed for baking. I’ve steam baked in my GSI Bugaboo set up with no problems and NOLS uses the fry bake pan, which is non-stick, by using a low flame with the MSR Whisperlite. I think dry baking would be fine if I could keep the flame on low and/or raise the pot higher above the flame, right? And I don’t think I’d need an inner pot if I understand the NOLS cooking method correctly. Any feedback on that particular issue would be great, too.

    Thanks!

    Michael

    #2153022
    Greg Mihalik
    Spectator

    @greg23

    Locale: Colorado

    "Some say “don’t do it” because the non-stick material will burn off with high temps"

    It depends on the type of non-stick coating. An organic coating like "teflon" will burn/vaporize off. A sprayed/sputtered ceramic like Vargo has used on some of its Ti pots is impervious to heat.

    I wouldn't count on flame/heat control to be sure you didn't get above the critical temperature of an organic.

    On the other hand, if you are baking outside, and you aren't huffing, you're probably OK.

    #2153032
    David Gardner
    BPL Member

    @gearmaker

    Locale: Northern California

    Jon Fong at Flat Cat sells some good dry baking set ups, and has some recipes on his web site:

    http://www.flatcatgear.com/the-flat-cat-cookbook/

    #2153142
    Jon Fong / Flat Cat Gear
    BPL Member

    @jonfong

    Locale: FLAT CAT GEAR

    Fry baking, a nonstick pan should be fine. When dry baking, I wouldn't use a non-stick pan. The pot tends to reach temperatures north of 500 F to 600 F, not a good temperature for Teflon or ceramic coatings. You would be better of with a plain aluminum or titanium pot.

    It is complicated to dry bake with an alcohol stove due to the thermal feedback from the pot. It can be done, you will need a reliable setup. Best wishes.

    #2153153
    Stuart R
    BPL Member

    @scunnered

    Locale: Scotland

    A non-stick pan is fine for dry baking. The most important component is the stove – you need one with a very low simmer capability. I'll emphasise that again – VERY LOW simmer. That way, you don't need an inner and outer pan and the pan does not get so hot that it burns your baking. If your baking is not burnt then you are also well below the temperature that would damage teflon.
    I use a MSR quick skillet + lid on a remote canister stove for dry baking bannock and scones.

    #2153182
    Greg Mihalik
    Spectator

    @greg23

    Locale: Colorado

    "It is complicated to dry bake with an alcohol stove due to the thermal feedback from the pot."

    The radiant heat from the pot can heat the alcohol in the stove to it's boiling point, resulting in a "run away" situation. Flames then engulf the stove. At the least, you boil off fuel at a high rate, and get little in return. At least this has been my experience with a Caldera Cone, largely because it is So good at sequestering heat.

    #2153187
    Sarah Kirkconnell
    BPL Member

    @sarbar

    Locale: Homesteading On An Island In The PNW

    From my own experiences (and I have used many, many pans), I do not dry bak in non-stick. I will pan-fry though – with plenty of oil, but not dry bake. The non-stick coatings on the majority of the outdoor pots are not thick and don't deal well with a focused flame in the first place (most stoves have a very focused flame point, and this tends to burn food if you don't pay attention). The focus flame leaves a mark on pans – take a careful look and you will see it, hard to explain, but once you see it, it is apparent to the eye.

    If you choose to cook this way, do NOT sit where you are breathing in the fumes.

    PS: This is the same thing that happens at home, when heating non-stick pans too hot dry – it isn't good for the lining, shortens the use of the pan and smells uber bad.

    #2153192
    Stuart R
    BPL Member

    @scunnered

    Locale: Scotland

    From http://www2.dupont.com/Teflon/en_US/products/safety/cookware_safety.html
    Teflon is considered safe to use (for humans) up to 500F.
    When pan-frying, the temperature will be around 400-470F.
    When dry baking, the temperature will be around 325-400F (less than for pan-frying).

    If the pan exceeds 400F when baking, your muffin (or whatever) will be burnt.
    If you dry bake without burning, you don't need to worry about the teflon.

    The scare stories about teflon arise from tests using birds. Birds have extremely efficient lungs and are very sensitive to many different vapours – this is the reason they used to be taken down mines. Human lungs are much less efficient.

    #2153197
    Michael Haubert
    BPL Member

    @socalmike

    Locale: So Cal

    @Sarah: What sort of stove do you bring when you do both dry baking and use a non stick fry pan on the same trip?

    Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

    Sounds like there is little room for error when using non stick with dry baking.

    Perhaps I could use a non stick fry pan as the lid to my aluminum pot when dry baking? With the Teflon facing up? Then use the fry pan for things like pizza, pancakes, and pan frying other small items quickly as opposed to long exposure to concentrated heat.

    #2153201
    Sarah Kirkconnell
    BPL Member

    @sarbar

    Locale: Homesteading On An Island In The PNW

    Stuart, the temps of a standard stove – and the highly focused flame – will slowly wreck the pan no matter what if used dry. I have even a Ti pot that has a warp due to this. Won't sit on pot supports right anymore. Was a $100 pot…now a lumpy water holder.

    #2153203
    Sarah Kirkconnell
    BPL Member

    @sarbar

    Locale: Homesteading On An Island In The PNW

    Michael,

    I have found the best luck in any baking – dry or pan frying – to be with an MSR WindPro remote canister. It is a slow stove (so not the greatest water boiler), but for slow cooking and the ability to dial in an ultra-low flame, it is a winner.

    But…this comes with a price of course – it isn't a cheap stove and nor is it the lightest. Still, it does amazing work.

    If I want to cook something that is dryer, I carry HAA pans that are not lined with non-stick (these are usually my MSR pots) For non-stick I am a long-time fan of GSI pots. While I do use Ti pots occasionally, they generally blow for baking or pan frying (they just get too hot, too fast – and are too thin walled).

    #2153232
    Stuart R
    BPL Member

    @scunnered

    Locale: Scotland

    Sarah – Ti pots are bad for anything other than boiling water. Ti is a poor conductor of heat and Ti pots are very thin so I agree that you will get a hot spot with almost any stove and burnt food as a consequence.

    Aluminium is very different – it is a very good conductor of heat and the pots are always much thicker which also helps the heat to spread around the whole pot. With the stove turned down really low, an aluminium pot does not get a hot spot.

    #2153237
    Sarah Kirkconnell
    BPL Member

    @sarbar

    Locale: Homesteading On An Island In The PNW

    Ah…but there is the rub: the stove must be able to be dialed down tightly – to a very low flame. Alcohol stoves are not that adjustable. To do it, one needs a remote stove. This of course isn't very UL ;-)

    Even then though….it still needs to be watched.

    #2153239
    Robert Blean
    BPL Member

    @blean

    Locale: San Jose -- too far from Sierras

    Ah…but there is the rub: the stove must be able to be dialed down tightly – to a very low flame. Alcohol stoves are not that adjustable. To do it, one needs a remote stove. This of course isn't very UL ;-)

    Even then though….it still needs to be watched.

    How well does the Caldera Cone work for this using the Trail Designs simmer bands? How about the Starlyte with the carbon felt simmer disc?

    –MV

    #2153244
    Stuart R
    BPL Member

    @scunnered

    Locale: Scotland

    My remote canister stove is less than 100g as is Roger's stove.
    Alcohol stoves are so light I wonder if it is possible to make one with a low output dedicated to baking?

    #2153256
    Bob Gross
    BPL Member

    @b-g-2-2

    Locale: Silicon Valley

    If your stove is too hot or the flame is too narrow, then just use a flame spreader made out of a steel can lid. Punch a few holes in it near the outer rim.

    With a really small stove flame, you can probably use a lid of about 2-inch diameter. For a medium stove flame, maybe 3 inches.

    –B.G.–

    #2153417
    Sarah Kirkconnell
    BPL Member

    @sarbar

    Locale: Homesteading On An Island In The PNW

    Just DO NOT use a heat diffuser with a canister stove. The chances of wrecking your stove are very, very high as it increases the heat.

    #2153424
    Greg Mihalik
    Spectator

    @greg23

    Locale: Colorado

    ^^^

    Curious here …

    Are you saying the heat radiating back from the diffuser damages the burner head, piezo, or supports, or that it will "overheat" the canister?

    And (not trying to be contentious), is this from first hand experience, or something you heard, or … ?

    Thanks.

    #2153430
    Lori P
    BPL Member

    @lori999

    Locale: Central Valley

    there is a documented thing called teflon flu – fumes from overheated teflon can cause symptoms in people. I refuse to have teflon pans in the house. also space heaters, blow dryers, or brand new furniture treated with Scotchguard. all outgas some bad chemistry (PTFEs) that makes BPA look benign. The hair gadgets and heaters have teflon coating as well. I do have birds and I prefer to avoid the chemicals wherever possible….

    The heat diffuser they sell at Packit Gourmet did well for me doing some baking but I used it on a remote canister stove.

    #2153438
    Bob Gross
    BPL Member

    @b-g-2-2

    Locale: Silicon Valley

    "Just DO NOT use a heat diffuser with a canister stove. The chances of wrecking your stove are very, very high as it increases the heat."

    Ha. A flame spreader isn't going to hurt the stove burner at all. Not a bit. Now, if you were stupid, you could overheat the fuel canister, but it takes only the tiniest bit of aluminum foil to avoid that problem.

    –B.G.–

    #2153455
    Sarah Kirkconnell
    BPL Member

    @sarbar

    Locale: Homesteading On An Island In The PNW

    I personally destroyed a Primus stove :-P Melted it, slumped it, pot supports gone. So yes, it happens.

    #2153461
    Greg Mihalik
    Spectator

    @greg23

    Locale: Colorado

    Sarah –
    Sorry to hear that.
    That is a lot of heat.

    Thanks for the info.

    #2153464
    Sarah Kirkconnell
    BPL Member

    @sarbar

    Locale: Homesteading On An Island In The PNW

    I need to find that stove! It is buried in one of my bins ;-) So is my warped Ti pot…lol!

    My left wrist still carries a scar from burning myself on an overheated canister stove, back in yeesh….summer of 2003? I touched a pot support on accident while in the Olympic Mountains. Clipped my wrist. Hoooooooo….yeah, that woke me up.

    I'll be the first to admit I treat my gear hard and do things I know I shouldn't even try ;-)

    #2153554
    Larry De La Briandais
    BPL Member

    @hitech

    Locale: SF Bay Area

    I've used my homemade ("tin can" top with slots cut in it) many times on my vargo ti stove. No problems what so ever. I do keep the flame very low, too low to properly bake at first.

    #2156562
    Michael Haubert
    BPL Member

    @socalmike

    Locale: So Cal

    Thanks, everyone.

    I tried out the following set up:
    Kmart grease pot
    Fat Daddio 4" x 2" round cake pan
    Trangia burner with simmer ring
    Clikstand pot/burner holder

    I did three tests using the equipment listed above. For two of the tests, I used the Trangia simmer ring to lower the flame and the baking took a loooong time (40 min., 1 hr. 12 min., respectively) and the results were pretty lousy (more like a steam baking result, i.e. the biscuits weren't crispy). It seemed to me that the burner was getting overheated because the pot was too close to the grease pot.

    Recalling a post on some other forums for dry baking with a Trangia (http://www.trailspace.com/forums/camp-kitchen/topics/142872.html), I tried to mimic what they did, which was to use the burner full blast, but to have the pot raised fairly high (in the link, the user put the pot on the "legs" of the Trangia windscreen up as you would for using the frying pan set up, which raises the cooking pot). I did a final test where I used shepherd stakes to raise the pot several inches above the burner. The stakes fit nicely in the holes of the clickstand. The result: A very nice biscuit that baked in ~20 minutes.

    I'm pleased with the results, but not thrilled about having to add some stakes to my baking set up.

    Does anyone else bake with a Trangia + clickstand? If so, got any tips?

    Michael

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