Jun 28, 2014 at 3:15 pm #1318451
Kinda cool little PSA: http://digg.com/video/what-does-it-mean-to-do-something-like-a-girlJun 28, 2014 at 4:29 pm #2115570
What about phrases like "get some balls" when you're suggesting someone be more assertive?
Is that saying women aren't assertive?
Does using that phrase tend to make women less assertive?Jun 28, 2014 at 4:40 pm #2115574
@kat_pLocale: Pacific Coast
Someone else sent me that link.
We have a long way to go but it was nice to see the younger girls not fall into that trap as easily as the older ones.Jun 28, 2014 at 4:49 pm #2115579
I was thinking that too, but then I thought maybe was that girls get screwed up sometime after puberty.Jun 28, 2014 at 7:28 pm #2115624
I would like to watch the video, but a recent thunder storm/power outage, completely fried both my modem and wi fi router, so i've been running off my phones mobile hotspot option recently and i have to watch data usage. Too broke to buy new ones right now. Thankfully i pay a little extra each month to the electrical company for this very protection purpose… so theoretically should get some money in a couple of weeks or so.
Can anyone briefly describe the overall gist of said video?
Sometimes i catch myself saying, "you guys", even to a group that has some or many women in it. I think that is perhaps kind of sexist of me. Originally being from the north east but living in VA now, i try not to say y'all, as my little rebellion against the south.. but i'm re-thinking that.Jun 28, 2014 at 8:13 pm #2115631
interviewed males and females of various ages. asked to "throw like a girl". they did it awkwardly. and "fighting like a girl". girls less than puberty did not behave like this. the point being, that societal sexism affects girls in puberty to start throwing awkwardly and other sterotypical behaviors. and when this was brought to people's attention they had "ah ha moment"
good "left brain" treatment of issueJun 28, 2014 at 9:32 pm #2115647
Interesting… Thank you for the break down Jerry. While i do think there are some innate, average differences between the genders, like the video suggests, i've long suspected a lot of it is societal indoctrination, culture influence, etc.
I've always been kind of more attracted to "tom boyish" type women, and long have felt rather "feminine" in a lot of ways, though i'm not outwardly effeminate at all and haven't ever had any sexual/lust type attraction to other men. The feminine part is hard to explain in words. I've always related very well to women, often get along better with them then men, and "feel/think" i think sometimes more like a woman than a guy, in touch and aware of my subtle feelings (though i'm rarely strongly emotional in the usual, or outwardly sense), listen well as a trend, more empathic, tend to perceive/process a bit more in more holistic or intuitive ways than just logically and linearly (though that's definitely strongly mixed in), for some examples that are easier to describe/explain.
Gender is an interesting subject from a lot of viewpoints. I have some "weird" consciousness oriented theories about same (big surprise huh? ;) but BPL is no place for those! I'm thought crazy/imbalanced enough as is.
I will just say that i found Bob Monroe's experience of meeting "He/She" as related in his 3rd and last book, "Ultimate Journey" to be very interesting and very true in a lot of respects, though i suspect many here would find it very unbelievable and out there. And i figured out who "He/She" really is. Actually a very well known person from history, still sticking around and helping people out, just as some old writings describe. Just to briefly say, when Bob met this person, he first referred to them as "He/She", because the person felt perfectly balanced and integrated between masculine and feminine, and in Bob's more nonphysical OBE state, he at first couldn't even perceive if it was a man or woman though the person was in physical form.
Since i've had some OBE's as well, i'm open minded to Bob's experiences–that and i know he was a credible, service oriented, and all around pretty good guy who helped a lot of people when he was around–though he was no saint as they say. I've been friends and met people who knew or were friends with him. These all had a lot of respect for him. Though like any charismatic leader/facilitator type, some put him on a pedestal over much, but he was pretty good at being the anti-guru helper–unusually so, which is why i have a lot of respect for him.Jun 28, 2014 at 10:08 pm #2115655
Hard to say without actually seeing the video yet, but an alternative explanation besides cultural/societal indoctrination is that when boys and girls are younger, before puberty, their bodies are less flooded with the hormones that tend to be predominant in their respective genders.
Perhaps some of the more overt "differences" besides bodily come in when their bodies are flooded by those different hormones. Yes, i do realize that women/girls do have some testosterone and androgen hormones, and men/boys have some estrogen and similar hormones, but i'm speaking average ratio predominance.
Certainly, if you pump a woman full of testosterone, she does become more "masculine" like in various ways physically and personality wise some, and vice versa with men and estrogen.
I suspect though, that it's a combo of indoctrination/subconscious influencing and hormone increase post puberty.
I've once heard testosterone described as the "f*#! it or kill it" hormone, and to some extent i agree. I have a hypothesis btw that in a guy, if you increased both testosterone, androgen, and growth hormone in the body in general, as well as applying both more specifically to a specific organ at the same time via skin (in DMSO?), along with some mild electrical stimulus of specific frequency to same organ, that one might get the much sought after and holy grail enhancement effect that millions or billions of men look for. I thought of this after watching the both hilarious at times and painful at others, documentary, "Unhung Hero".Jun 29, 2014 at 7:49 am #2115711
hormones would explain why men are better at athletics that require muscle mass like football
I think "throwing like a girl" is a metaphor for something like science or engineering that requires math and science. Few women. 10 year old girls are good at math and science. Maybe hormones are a tiny bit responsible for why girls quit being so good at math and science but I think it's mostly cultural.Jun 29, 2014 at 9:13 pm #2115967
Daryl and DarylParticipant
@lyrad1Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
I like it. Thought provoking.
The phrase was also used in an ad featuring the now deceased Flo Jo many years ago. Really turned the phrase on its head because the accompanying photo showed her impressively muscled body running at full speed. I'd give a lot if I could run like that girl.Jun 30, 2014 at 12:16 pm #2116142
But I don't mind it. I guess because I'm a guy. I think of throwing like a girl a certain strange throwing motion. And in the video, it would be most kids…then the boys just gets better at it. So if you still throw awkwardly later in life, then it is "like a girl".
Males and females are different. I don't think it benefits us to pretend we are the same.
If you tell somebody to not be a D!ck, then is that sexist too?Jun 30, 2014 at 1:02 pm #2116158
@squarkLocale: SF Bay area
Thanks for that.
It reminds me a bit of this:
"I can remember speaking to a 12-year-old boy, a football player, and I asked him, I said, "How would you feel if, in front of all the players, your coach told you you were playing like a girl?" Now I expected him to say something like, I'd be sad; I'd be mad; I'd be angry, or something like that. No, the boy said to me — the boy said to me, "It would destroy me." And I said to myself, "God, if it would destroy him to be called a girl, what are we then teaching him about girls?" "
–Tony Porter – A Call to MenJun 30, 2014 at 1:07 pm #2116160
I think throwing like a girl is a metaphor. Doesn't really matter that much how good you throw unless you're an athlete.
But the same thing applies to other things like math and science – 10 year old girls just as good, after puberty not so good, this makes them unable to get as good jobs. If we didn't consider girls dumb, or you can't get a man unless you pretend to be dumb, then this wouldn't happen.Jun 30, 2014 at 1:20 pm #2116164
Who considers girls dumb? I know that men are more likely to go into math and science fields, but that is a preference (maybe skill). But how is that dumb? And who tells women they need to be dumb to get a guy?
I like smart women. They make more money….Jun 30, 2014 at 1:30 pm #2116168
I'm sure it's not just you… :-)
What the video points out is that too much of the 'does things like a girl' – with a negative connotation – happens at a critical time for the social development of young girls. And we shouldn't be using language that makes them feel somewhat incapable during such a difficult time, we should be using language that's positive and promotes growth, not stagnation.
"And in the video, it would be most kids…then the boys just gets better at it. So if you still throw awkwardly later in life, then it is "like a girl"."
As a generalization that might be somewhat true, but it's nowhere near true on an individual basis. There are many young girls who can 'outdo' boys of the same age in many sports. And while boys may generally get stronger, running naturally and throwing naturally are not based on strength at all. And those girls – and the number is increasing, thank goodness – who refuse to accept the old manner of thought that 'sports are for boys' develop motor skills just as well boys. They can run and throw just as well, if not as fast or far. The only reason far too many girls run or throw 'awkwardly' is because they've been made to feel that's just how it is, thanks to negative language used.
"Males and females are different. I don't think it benefits us to pretend we are the same."
Yup, we're different, but not in the ways that 'throws like a girl' promotes. We're not really different in that aspect – the ability to run, throw, kick, catch, etc. naturally and well.
"If you tell somebody to not be a D!ck, then is that sexist too?"
It's not the same thing at all. And, again, I don't think the point of the video is sexism, I think it's trying to promote not singling out girls at a very delicate point in their lives to make them feel somehow less than boys in any part of life. I think it's a worthy goal.Jun 30, 2014 at 1:51 pm #2116176
Then I suggest you show the video to all the girls you know. It appeared to me that when I was growing up the boys weren't putting down the girls at that all so critical age. It was girls doing it to each other.Jun 30, 2014 at 2:10 pm #2116182
@kat_pLocale: Pacific Coast
Michael, yes, it goes beyond what little boys say. If a girl is taught at home that she is helpless but being pretty will help her get what she needs….then she will tell other girls the same. A lot of the media continues to portray women pretty poorly. It all adds up and empowering girls does not mean negating the differences between boys and girls. I also believe that many of the stereotypes are hurting boys and men and the awareness should go both ways.Jun 30, 2014 at 2:20 pm #2116185
"Who considers girls dumb? I know that men are more likely to go into math and science fields, but that is a preference (maybe skill). But how is that dumb? And who tells women they need to be dumb to get a guy?"
When I say dumb, I mean in math and science. Or you could call it skill if you wanted. And if it was preference, it's because the person does better or worse so prefers to go into that field.
And it's just because people in those fields tend to get paid more and it's easier finding a job. And people enjoy it as much as other fields. Not that there's anything wrong with being a social worker or an historian or whatever.
And for some reason, there aren't many women in math and science fields. Yet when I was 10, the girls were just as good. Something happened, and I assume it's cultural.
When I was growing up there were discussions about how a women has to be dumb, like losing at a game or it will intimidate the man. And discussions about how B.S. that was and women shouldn't do that.Jun 30, 2014 at 2:22 pm #2116186
"It was girls doing it to each other."
and to themselves
one of the points of that videoJun 30, 2014 at 2:37 pm #2116189
I didn't see much of that. Growing up all of the girls in school played sports and were in honors classes too. Actually we probably had a few more girls than guys in the honors classes. It wasn't cool for the guys to be smart. There were only a few of us that played sports and were in the honors classes on the guys side. I was the only one that did both well. ;)
I guess I got lucky. The girls in my class would rather run track and take physics. The "in" group actually weren't the cheerleaders. Then I married a woman who is better at math/science then me.
Maybe it's just me!Jun 30, 2014 at 2:38 pm #2116191
@jenmitolLocale: In my dreams....
I was a smarty pants in grade school and in high school. When I was very young I remember pretending to not know things because MY FRIENDS would make fun of me for being a "smarty pants" and a "know-it-all." I remember clearly my mom telling me that no matter what my friends said, and no matter what the boys said, I was never to "let" the man win, and I was never, ever to play dumb for a guy.
I never dated in high school.
I seriously dated one guy in college…and I played dumb so he would like me. Because I was told many, many times by my guy friends that I was "intimidating."
Heck, just a few years ago I had a guy – who I really liked and hoped for something long-term from that relationship – this guy said I didn't "need" him, that I would resent "settling" for him because I was smarter than he was and I made more money than he did.
Right now, in my university where I teach, I am consistently put second to a new guy who has fewer credentials than I do and less experience. And this is done by the FEMALE head of the department and the FEMALE head of the orthopedic section. It gets VERY tiring to fight this day after day.
So you guys are living in some serious land of denial if you think that girls don't have cultural pressure to NOT be smart and to avoid VERY the male-dominated fields of math and science.Jun 30, 2014 at 3:41 pm #2116212
If it makes you feel better, I had a prof that discriminated against the guys in the class.Jun 30, 2014 at 4:03 pm #2116219
Thanks Doug. This is a wonderful video.
I guess I’m fortunate that the women in my life have all broken through the glass ceiling and I’m proud of their accomplishments. I can see how it’s not an even playing field for them but I’m glad that my daughter has my wife, mother, and sister (three separate people (figured a couple of you wiseacres would turn that into a redneck joke(I can tease rednecks as I have hillbilly tendencies(no seriously… that’s a rule. You can make fun of your own kind and it’s still PC (yes I get paid by the parenthetical statement))))) as role models of what she can accomplish with hard work and determination.
I just don’t understand why so many women try to subvert the success and ambitions of other women. My maternal grandmother flew fighter planes inside the U.S. (for logistical reasons (shoot here I go again)) during WWII and later went on to become a vice principle at a high school yet she tried to convince my sister to become a house wife instead of pursuing a career in business. Fortunately my sister ignored her and is now a VP at a local hospital (yes I like to brag about her (ok I really need to know when to say when(I mean c'mon, this really wouldn't be acceptable under any writing style))).Jun 30, 2014 at 4:42 pm #2116229
@leadfootLocale: Middle Virginia
I was dating a guy and one afternoon he dropped by my place while I was busy changing the spark plugs in my car. He took one look at what I was doing and left. I never heard or saw from him again. HIs loss.Jun 30, 2014 at 5:29 pm #2116245
"Heck, just a few years ago I had a guy – who I really liked and hoped for something long-term from that relationship – this guy said I didn't "need" him, that I would resent "settling" for him because I was smarter than he was and I made more money than he did."
This is a really interesting comment. For those of you without any experience with Match.com (lucky bastards), one column in a person's profile lists their 'stats,' which include height, body type, religion, ethnicity, job, education and salary, among others, and in the column beside it the values to those categories that he/she wants the person they're looking for to possess. I've found that generally (meaning this is a generic statement for all you anal types), the more educated a woman is, and the more money she makes (when they list their salary, many people do not), the more they want the guy they're looking for to be in one category higher. So if they have a bachelor's degree, they want their mate to have a graduate degree. If they make $75,000-$100,000, they want their mate to make $100,000-$150,000.
As far as the guy you reference above, while I've never had those feelings once in a relationship (the two longest term relationships I've had were with women who had graduate degrees, while I have no degree), I have at times not pursued a relationship because I felt something along the same lines. And since the vast majority of women are smarter than me, that makes it tough sometimes!
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