Aug 15, 2012 at 3:17 am #1292993
From Ultralight Hunting thread – "David starting a new thread where everyone basically agrees with me would change nothing, so in that regard injecting my thoughts here was deliberate."
Since Art chose not to start a new thread in chaff as suggested and preferred to try and derail the ultraliht hunting thread with off-topic posts, here is your chance to enlighten me (and the other hunters) why I should not line up Bambi's mom in the crosshairs and enjoy a Venison roast.Aug 15, 2012 at 5:44 am #1902825
Ken T.BPL Member
I live in a area with a huge number of deer. Hear too many time that hunters come back empty handed. But it seems like almost everyone has hit or nearly hit a deer with their car at one time or another. So enjoy backpacking and pick up your meat on the drive home.
That's convenience.Aug 15, 2012 at 6:10 am #1902831
Matthew mcgurkBPL Member
@phatpackerLocale: Central coast California
not bambis mom but his dad. Most state tags are for the males and given to thin populations to manage them. because of past killings of predators it is esential for the health of populations of deer that they get thinned every year. Bambi's mom only gets humted when populations are over saturating and risk desease or starvation.
I dont hunt but understand some of the management practices. I dont like the taste of venison at all and I dont like killing but recognize the need for good management practices. I could hunt small game and birds though, They taste good and could eat them out in the wild. Much prefer fishing.Aug 15, 2012 at 7:02 am #1902839
Art …BPL Member
well Paul – since you started this thread in my name, I'll inject a few thoughts, nothing new, because there is nothing new on this topic, its been hashed over many times.
It basically comes down to reverence for life (and no I'm not a hard core vegetarian, I do eat meat sometimes).
The idea that humans are not the only species on the planet with a right to life has been a slowly evolving one. At least slowly evolving from the perspective of Western modern man.
But it is an evolving idea none the less.
The animal kingdom is a cruel one from one perspective, we all eat each other. But eating for survival, while cruel in the moment, is a fact of nature that preserves life in the long run. Didn't the American Indians say a prayer to the Gods or the animal they killed when committing the act they knew to be wrong in the moment?
My basic objection is directed at killing for sport.
How many of you have ever killed a human for sport ? or to eat him ?
And yet we kill thousands, millions, in the name of God, in the name of right, all the time. We have video games with pretend killing, we have paint ball wars, how about we send all those who participate, who have such a need for violence, off to a real war so they can be in some real crosshairs.
The same for sport killing of animals. basicallly its a Chicken Sh#t, cowardly form of entertainment. Perhaps all the "sportsman" should be rounded up and sent off to war to face the crosshairs as well. would that satisfy their need?
Like I said, reverence for life, in all forms, is a slowly evolving idea, we will get there, but in the mean time …. (you fill in the blank).
p.s. for the uninitiated
What is the difference between killing for survival and sport killing ?
If you actually enjoy the hunt and the kill it is sport killing, even if you eat the meat. A lion doesn't kill a zebra because its fun, he does it because he's hungry.Aug 15, 2012 at 7:30 am #1902850
Art, if you eat meat, I don't understand how you could be opposed to hunting for food? You know you pay someone to kill your meat for you right? You are taking a life everytime you eat meat unless you are eating roadkill.Aug 15, 2012 at 7:58 am #1902863
Art – I did not start this thread to call you out specifically – well maybe I did in a way, but I was truly interested in your point of view. You have given it, and I must admit I still don't understand it.
You say that you have a reverence for life in all its forms, which is a noble sentiment (and I think you will find often shared by hunters), yet as James points out you acknowledge that you sometimes eat meat – a bit of a contradiction there.
Have you ever spent time with the First Nations? If you had, you would find that they certainly did NOT think that they were doing "something wrong in the moment". In fact you will find quite the opposite. As hunters, they had great respect for the resource that sustained them and gave thanks for the success in their hunt.
I think that you will find that a good portion of modern day hunters share that same respect for the resource – just as the First Nations did. They hunt for sport, yes, but they also hunt to put food on their families table, they hunt because wild game is often the healthiest meat you can find, or they hunt because they have a reverence for life and their hunting brings them closer to the natural world.
Let's leave out the hunting of people from the discussion; that is just hyperbole, especially coming from a meat eater. That is the role of us in the military – put our life in the crosshairs so you can safely rant at home.
But this is in chaff so rant away!Aug 15, 2012 at 8:15 am #1902867
"Art, if you eat meat, I don't understand how you could be opposed to hunting for food? "
I guess I took something different from Art's post than you or Paul did. My take – Art didn't say he was opposed to hunting for food, he said he was opposed to those who enjoy the kill. Two vastly different things.Aug 15, 2012 at 8:53 am #1902880
He had edited his post to clarify while I was typing my post. I understand his beliefs now. But I also believe we should be giving thanks for fruits, veggies, farm meat in the same way. Vegetables have life too in my mind.Aug 15, 2012 at 8:56 am #1902882
@socal-nomadLocale: North San Diego county
I agree with Paul if you use hunting as a means for food and use all the parts like native or first nations in any countries native people do it okay.
If it just for a trophy or sport for a head or mounting like a game bird or just the skin it's bad,I just watched my favorite movie "Dances with Wolves" a couple days ago and to see the sadness and bewilderment of the Sioux tribes people to see hundreds of buffalo carcass's lie striped for their furs only was truly sad.
The only thing I did kill for protection of my little brothers was rattle snakes in our family avocado grove to protect them. I would eat the meat and dry the skin. Some times I would just hook the rattle snakes with my hoe and throw them over the fence it would tick my father off he wanted them all dead.
I use too hunt once in while with a pellet gun for rabbit for food and fur that night to supplement a meal I like rabbit it taste good.
I would really like to try some really ultra light rabbit hunting with a slingshot for food to give the animals a fair fight.
TerryAug 15, 2012 at 9:17 am #1902889
W I S N E R !BPL Member
So long as we're talking about eating meat…
Eating in blissfully ignorant disconnectedness registers as a bit more sadistic and strange in my book.
At the very least a hunter that hunts to eat food is willing to make a decision, face reality, and get their hands dirty. If you can kill, gut, and clean an animal and still be hungry for it, at least you're not living in the ethically sanitized La-La Land of the typical civilized supermarket meat shopper.
Enjoying the "kill" is the same thing as sitting in a restaurant and enjoying a filet mignon, make no mistake.Aug 15, 2012 at 9:34 am #1902894
@owareLocale: Steptoe Butte
"The site was in use at least 6,000 years ago, and the bone deposits are 10 metres deep. "Aug 15, 2012 at 9:42 am #1902898
"Enjoying the "kill" is the same thing as sitting in a restaurant and enjoying a filet mignon, make no mistake."
Point taken.Aug 15, 2012 at 12:23 pm #1902935
Sarah KirkconnellBPL Member
@sarbarLocale: In the shadow of Mt. Rainier
Craig, that is EXACTLY how I feel.
I grew up rural and we raised animals. My Dad made us watch the fall slaughtering. It was nasty but he wanted us to know where our food came from. As I have said many times…watching a full grown pig slaughtered is horrible.
Too many humans eat sanitized looking containers of meat from grocery stores – the majority of that meat was raised in inhumane conditions, under severely stressful lives.
Hence….I rarely eat meat. I need to know where it came from. It is also how I buy honey and eggs as well – that the animals were respected for what they have given us. But I also know that if it came to it I could slaughter an animal if need be. But I would be respectful of what it gave.Aug 15, 2012 at 6:35 pm #1903049
Ben 2 WorldBPL Member
@ben2worldLocale: So Cal
As a meat eater, I wouldn't point fingers at anyone hunting for food. But when we kill, hopefully, we do it with maximum speed and minimum pain. And we leave all endangered species alone.
But when it comes to hunting for sport, I do have some misgivings. But as a meat eater, I wouldn't point my finger too far out at anyone…Aug 15, 2012 at 6:55 pm #1903058
Katharina LångstrumpBPL Member
@kat_pLocale: Pacific Coast
At least hunted animals have a chance at life in the wild and all that comes with it; farmed animals don't and unlike their wild cousins their destiny is to be on someone's plate. If I had a choice I would rather be free and possibly hunted down.Aug 16, 2012 at 1:22 am #1903151
+1 Craig, +1 Sarah
Full disclosure – I've only hunted small game and all went to the table. I love venison (when handled and cooked right), so when I move back to Canada, I will probably start deer hunting.
I'm conflicted about trophy hunters though. It is definitely not for me, but I have trouble condemning practice out right. There are a number of species that need to be hunted to maintain a healthy population, as pointed out by Matthew.
If some rich guy wants to pay an outfitter a bunch of cash to shoot that buck just so he can hang the rack of antlers over his fireplace – is there something unethical about that? I'm guessing that the meat does not go to waste, and it does provide jobs and put dollars in the local economy – what is the down side?
It is certainly unethical to wipe out a population (as done with the buffalo) or hunt endangered species, but I have trouble condemning trophy hunting across the board.Aug 16, 2012 at 3:11 am #1903155
"p.s. for the uninitiated
What is the difference between killing for survival and sport killing ?
If you actually enjoy the hunt and the kill it is sport killing, even if you eat the meat. A lion doesn't kill a zebra because its fun, he does it because he's hungry."
Art – I missed your PS because you added it later …
What makes you so sure that that the lion does not think the hunt is fun? I'm not so sure, and I've seen evidence to the contrary. Not directly with the lion per say, but I have seen my cat (a distant relative) exhibit that behaviour.
She is a well fed animal that goes out each night. Most mornings she leaves a mouse, bird and in one case a baby bunny (yes my wife cried for the baby bunny, but my 6 year old daughter, wise beyond her years, pointed out that it is the circle of life) on our door step (un-eaten)and is quite proud of her kills. That would seem to me that thinks hunting is fun.
I've seen a pod of Orca off the West coast taunt, kill and then swim away from a seal. They might have teaching the young how to hunt, but it did look like a game to them.Aug 16, 2012 at 7:42 am #1903186
Mike MBPL Member
I've hunted all my life (and I'm not that young :)). My kid's had not tasted a beef steak until they were 5 or 6 years old- when they did, they really didn't care for it- they had only eaten deer, elk and antelope. My employment in the natural resource field has always been a very rewarding job, but it's never been a job that pays well-a freezer w/ meat that I've harvested and butchered myself, has gone a long way in providing for my family. The meat is lean, healthy and tastes good.
Hunting in North America is well regulated and managed to sustain the resource. It was sport hunters that came to the rescue a century ago to insure that our big game herds weren't decimated by unregulated seasons and commercial hunting. Slowly (but surely) herd numbers grew and today we have very robust populations across NA. It's sport hunters that today still foot the bill for the management of both game and non-game species. Not just through establishing seasons and bag limits, but insuring that critical winter range is preserved and not sub-divided, that riparian areas are protected and many, many other habitat protections and improvements are in place.
Are there unethical hunters- yes there are some (sadly there are unethical backpackers as well :( ), my job is to educate these hunters or failing that, to insure they don't hunt any longer. Our game laws have significantly strengthened over the last decade. We now have felony statutes on the books and we have sent dozens of poachers to prison (not jail-prison!).
So yes, in my view it's ethical to legally harvest game animals (which includes that all edible portions are utilized), if not- then no it's not ethical and it's not hunting.
MikeAug 16, 2012 at 8:31 am #1903199
kevin timmBPL Member
@ktimmLocale: Colorado (SeekOutside)
In some places in Africa hunting actually preserves the animals. Without that, people just kill them to get them away from their crops. Hunting fees in the US go a log ways to suppporting outdoor programs and budgets. It's not all bad for the non hunter. I think it is more humane to take an animal in the woods than from normal non free range markets. It is a false to think Indians always used everything. They may have at some point but not often. I hunt as ethically as I can. I have no concerns over trophies, because I hunt for meat, however, if a trophy presents an opportunity I will take it and put it on my wall if I can.
There are lots of different kinds of hunting. The drive around drunk type are one kind and give much of it a bad name. Backcountry hunting though, requires a lot of different outdoor skills and is in my opinion, can be as difficult as difficult mountaineering. Sure guides can game the system and people can as well. Our system is gamed everywhere.Aug 16, 2012 at 8:18 pm #1903402
@retropumpLocale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
I was a vegan for 20 years, and part of my reasons were 'respect' for other living things. Now I am merely 'mostly' vegetarian. When I do eat meat, I make sure it comes from wild game that was quickly killed. Fortunately I live in a country where it is open season all year around due to the game species all being introduced and considered pests. If it were not for folks that enjoyed hunting, our native habitats would be over run by these 'pests' and would thus incur a lot of government funding to fly around in helicopters and shoot them. I cannot stomach the thought of an animal going through the end-of-life stress of being loaded up in a big truck with hundreds of other animals, then trucked to a slaughter house where they wait in terror for their turn, their noses and ears filled with the stench and cries of their fellow beasts being mown down in front of them. So I am all for ethical hunting (please try to make it a quick and clean kill), but very much not in favour of folks buying sanitised domestically raised and killed meat. Free range doesn't really even count in my book. Though it is leaner, and the animals arguably have a better life (note: all beef and lamb in NZ is raised free-range anyway), it still has to go through the horror of a slaughter house. Oh yeah, the other kind of meat I will eat is if I have any farming friends who do their own home kills. The animals are not stressed at all, though the meat is still fattier than wild game.
And my cats and dogs both fully enjoy the thrill of the hunt. Hunger has nothing to do with it.Aug 16, 2012 at 11:39 pm #1903440
@maynard76Locale: New England
Isn't it strange that one of the most basic human activities, an activity that we have as a species practiced since the beginning, continue to practice and will always practice is such a subject of controversy for so many first world privileged industrialized people? (not including those religious sects which is a another thing entirely)
But maybe it isn't really? If you consider how much sex, eating, and comedy has also drawn the scorn of humanity's puritans.
Maybe its the effectiveness the big agricultural industry that would love nothing else but to have everyone eat a soy and corn diet shrinking the national wilderness to make way for more monocrops?
more likely another symptom of being out of touch with our food supply.
Too me there is no more ecologically sound and humane food source than a responsible hunt. I can not think of one. Farming kills not only game animals but entire ecosystems down to the microbes in the soil. The only survivors are the hardy rats, crows, and cockroaches.. But this is assuming the farm is organic and doesn't need to dam up nearby rivers and suck aquifers dry.
If people take pleasure in hunting its only a natural and positive thing, feeding ones family is a necessity. So evolution works its magic.
I think some confuse the joy and excitement of a successful hunt, the satisfaction of being useful and independent, the joy of sustaining your family and neighbors with food –for some sadistic cruel pleasure of killing and dominating another living thing.
That confusion is so twisted and cynical as to be easily dismissed.
A note on "waste". This word comes up so often in hunting critics. Nothing, not even one atom is ever wasted in nature. The concept of a kill going to waste is completely human centric and selfish.
Wasted for who? Not the bears,wolves,coyotes,vultures, insects of every kind, bacteria, and plants who will be sustained on the nutrients in the soil.
Man has always taken what he needed and left the rest to nature. if a person wastes meat he is only cheating himself. It is a great myth and a stereotype to claim first nations people "never wasted anything and used every part". No, the correct quote is first nations people HAD a use for every part of the animal, thats quite different from what some people claim. I don't expect a modern hunter to fashion tools out of deer bones and tunics out the skins. Its not an intelligent use of his time unless its for a hobby or something.
As for the myth of the "ecological Indian" that is always brought up as well, First nations people were in fact 100's of very different distinct cultures. Its not easy to make too many generalizations based on earth day ads and Hollywood movies. Rituals and attitudes twords nature where varied. Even then individuals within said cultures were also varied as varied as….well us.
While I can understand ,if not agree with the vegetarians and vegans I will never understand the blanket condemnation and intolerance some of them have for such a basic activity as hunting.
And it should be noted that any decent person let alone hunter would condemn those who hunt irresponsibly and are crass and cruel twords animals. Thats not an indictment on hunting but those individuals.Aug 17, 2012 at 7:37 am #1903475
It's posts like Brian's, above, and Lynn's, above that, that cause me to appreciate the diversity of opinion on this site, and to reflect a bit more on my own thoughts and beliefs on various subjects. Dave and Brad have been doing the same thing on the Romney/Ryan thread. So thanks all, for all of your different perspectives, and for making me think and really consider what I base my opinions/beliefs on. That's never a bad thing.Aug 17, 2012 at 9:30 am #1903510
Randy NelsonBPL Member
Based on the title, I thought this was specifically about ultralight hunting being ethical and I was wondering how the ethics would be different from regular hunting. So why was ultralight in the title?Aug 17, 2012 at 9:41 am #1903514
W I S N E R !BPL Member
Mike, Lynn, and Brian, excellent posts.Aug 17, 2012 at 10:54 am #1903530
Justin BakerBPL Member
@justin_bakerLocale: Santa Rosa, CA
I'm pretty sure that harvesting roadkill is a illegal in California. It's pretty disappointing. When driving north from Reno to Alturas on highway 299 at night, I ended up hitting enough jackrabbits to feed a small village.
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