Ultralight Waterproof-Breathable Jackets: 2012 State of the Market Report

[James holden]

i disagree … if you think you pay extra at REI because people abuse the system, shop somewhere else … many people pay extra at REI because they know they can return it if it doesnt work the way they expect

OR has a no questions asked warranty … and they make and sell one of the lighter rain jackets around, they are so confident in it and their service that they came out with a helium II

i dont seem to be paying anymore at EB than any other place, less in fact … but the warranty on my downlight sweater is a trade in anytime if i have an issue

rain jackets can delaminate, it is not an uncommon problem , rather than blame the use good companies will take care of them so they keep on coming back and post their positive, rather than negative experiences online

[Martin RJ Carpenter]

Very nice to see these things getting an objective test, because they do often seem to get overlooked.

8 oz really doesn't force you to drop much useful, past using a 2.5 layer fabric. The Ozo is comfortably under and the fabric really isn't that light (77g/m2.).

Incidentally I just checked Haglofs' site to get the Ozo's fabric weight and it wasn't there. Seems like they might have canned it. Ugh.

[Nick Gatel]

"i disagree … if you think you pay extra at REI because people abuse the system, shop somewhere else … many people pay extra at REI because they know they can return it if it doesnt work the way they expect"

Eric,

Don't know if you have ever run a business, but I have. Here is a high level picture of how it works.

Most businesses are focused on product profit margins and margins on EBIT (earnings before interest and taxes). If expenses go up, then prices go up. Companies project what percentage of sales (in dollars) will be spent on warranty, goodwill, and after-warranty adjustments. So yes, if these expenses go up, so do the prices. Companies use warranties as a marketing tool… the sales department comes up with the ideas, and operations executes them.

The good news is that the strategy attracts customers, builds long-term customer loyalty, and generally improves profitability. But it is not a free ride… someone pays for the warranty, and that someone is every single customer — it is built into the pricing structure. If too many customers abuse the warranty, or the company sells crappy products then it has to raise prices.

[James holden]

nick

with all due respect … neither MEC nor REI (the most cited case of "abuses") seem to be going out of business … they seem to be expanding in fact … mec in fact is having the walmart effect in canada, when they went into bikes retailers complained that prices would drop, much of mec gear is both good quality and quite of the bit of the stuff they sell is cheaper than the MRSP of the manufacturer (dead bird items sold there for example)

people who go there tend to want that absolute guarantee that is provided … maybe they pay extra, but thats their choice

we can all find better deals … but the service may or may not be there

[Roger Caffin]

Hi David

> I have an OR Helium that is several years old. No pit zips and Gortex Paclite. It is sweat
> factory. Its saving grace is the durability it has provided. I have bush wacked several
> times and there is not a mark on the jacket. 8.4oz in XL.

No visible marks maybe, but try doing a pressure test on the shoulders. You might find that they make like a shower rose. The Gore-Tex membrane is very prone to getting small pin-holes from spikey leaves, and these leak badly. The holes tend to enlargen rather than heal.

How do I know this? You can guess. Gore did the testing for me at my request. Yes, it was a big heavy expensive Gore-Tex jacket with all the bells ands whistles too. Bygone era.

Cheers

[Nick Gatel]

nick

with all due respect …

Yes, did you read the last paragraph in my post?

:)

[Jeremy Platt]

Hi Roman,

That is certainly a sexy looking jacket you posted. Have you got one? If so, how do you find it?

Cheers,

Jeremy.

[Brian UL]

Marco, I think you misunderstand me. I would not wear dri-ducks and the like for bush whacking. what I was trying to say was that I would not wear any of the high end wpb jackets for bush whacking. Its a big waste. No jacket will work properly unless its kept clean and the dwr stays intact. As soon as a jacket gets dirty and the surface gets abraded it will wet out.
In that case it would seem that it would make sense to just buy some cheap jacket with durable fabric and expect it to fail, go with a non breathable, or just get wet.
So if you want a breathable jacket it stands to reason you probably want to baby it and not bush whack with it – in which case dri-ducks is a good choice.

[David Ure]

"No visible marks maybe, but try doing a pressure test on the shoulders. You might find that they make like a shower rose. The Gore-Tex membrane is very prone to getting small pin-holes from spikey leaves, and these leak badly. The holes tend to enlargen rather than heal. "

Would an additional DWR treatment temporarily 'fill' any (very) small holes? I just looked at the jacket and can't see any pin holes, but doesn't mean they are not there.

Only one thing to do. Shower test.

[Roman Vazhnov]

Hi Jeremy.
My friend have got one. The jacket has athletic fit, compresses almost like windshell. And it feels like windshell when wearing (comparing to my Marmot paclite jacket). I think we will go through some adventure races this year, so we can test breathability and durability issues.

upd.: In fact – my friend already participated in couple of races in this jacket, and he says he was happy. Also once he spent a day indoors (i don't know why :))), and not standing still, and it was comfortable.

[James holden]

i believe that the OR helium uses pertex shield … perhaps theres an even older version that uses gortex?

if the OR fails the shower test, talk to OR, chances are theyll send you a new one ;)

[Roger Caffin]

Hi David

Additional DWR could help a bit, but only under good conditions. It certainly will not 'temporarily 'fill' any (very) small holes' as you put it. No way.

No, I could not see any of the holes before or after testing either. But I could sure see the sprays of water when low pressure was applied. Not sure whether a shower would do it, but try it with some tissures lining the jacket. They are very sensitive.

Cheers

[Daniel Sandström]

During the last half year or so I've come across a good amount of opinions on windshirts. All of them telling you do get of the computer and go buy one – the best and most used piece of gear in the history of backpacking.

So I've got my eyes on one.

But I have a quite light well functioning Haglöfs Lim Ozone (~350g @ size M). If however, I wouldn't have it, I'd probably buy something like the Ozo (discontinued, buhuu). Now, why choose a 130g windshirt instead of a sub 200g WPB jacket? If you go out you'll most likely be in the sights of a raincloud anyway.

Please explain this to me.

[Roman Vazhnov]

Because it is cheap, more versatile and don't require regular DWR reproofing (do to the main job – cut wind)?

[Martin RJ Carpenter]

Oh, you'd need to take both in places with changable weather – certainly Nordic places/the UK! – so the windshirt is plain extra weight in that sense.

One thing is that they're notably more comfortable to wear than any waterproof shell until it rains properly. Also perhaps importantly they're both cheaper up front and lot more durable over time – many fewer ways to fail properly – than these very light shells.

[David Ure]

Hi Roger – thanks, I will give it a try and report back.

"i believe that the OR helium uses pertex shield … perhaps theres an even older version that uses gortex?"

Hi Eric – yes, it was the previous version that used Gortex Paclite (Roger actually tested one for BPL, come to think of it).

[Carl Umland]

Have any of you BPLers tried the Castelli Sotelle cycling jacket? Seen here at Amazon; http://www.amazon.com/Castelli-Sottile-Jacket-Mens-Transparent/dp/B003RZD2DC
It's said to weigh 3 ounces.
Mulestomper

[Sam Haraldson]

A dang teaser article. I want the meat n' potatoes! Gimme some science, Dave. I've been slowly testing various jackets on my own for the past five years and curious if my conjectures will match yours.

[Anonymous]

In the article the GoLite Malpais has a claimed weight of 7.0 oz / 198.4 gram and a measured weight of 7.2 oz/ 204.1 gram (weigths of a medium sized jacket). I have a Golite malpais jacket in medium and it has a weight of 7.9 oz / 224 gram. How can this be?

[Jerry Adams]

Nice article, David

If the DWR has to work for the membrane to work, why even have a membrane? Or, rather than focusing on the membrane, all the WPB articles should focus on the DWR – difference between different jackets, technology,…

Why is it that Western outdoor people always have short jackets? Yeah, it makes it a little lighter, but the top of your pants gets wet and cold. I was watching a PBS show of a British guy in the Himalayas – he wore a short jacket, all the natives wore long coats – that seemed a lot more functional

[James holden]

fashion and weight savings …

if you go to one of yr local department stores youll see plenty of longer rain jackets, the problem is that they are heavier or made of non breathable material …. however plenty of people buy and use em in the city just fine, they just arent currently "outdoursy" fashionable

can you imagine the outcry here over a few extra oz. that you "dont" need off a longer jacket? … why people would bash that jacket on posts as being "overweight" … everyone knows that all you need is a cuben poncho or dri ducks in any condition ;)

[Mark Verber]

> If the DWR has to work for the membrane to work, why even have a membrane?

Just DWR can be effective provided what's under it dries quickly and you aren't looking to stay perfectly dry. Good DWR + quick wicking layer is can work well, especially in cold weather. Paramo is best know for this approach. There are limitations, especially as it gets warmer. Just DWR doesn't do so well in the face of high hydrostatic head (hard / wind blown rain, kneeling, pack straps, etc). When facing a lot of brush, I doing take a traditional shell because I know the DWR will get killed. I use a jacket made from EPIC which is DWR through and through rather than being a coating… it doesn't wear off. I have written a bit about this on my recommended soft-shell page.

–mark

[Melanie Simmerman]

Good article with one major drawback: as usual, all the examples of jackets are for MEN. As far as I'm concerned, that means this article tells only 50% of the story. It really burns me up to walk into gear store after gear store to see a wall of stuff for the guys and half the stuff for the women. More and more women are out there equally with the guys – and if you keep not marketing to us – you deserve to lose.

Come on ladies, we have to start complaining about this. Gear makers sit up and take notice — if you treat women badly I will not purchase your stuff. For example, NIKE treated women as though they were invisible for YEARS – I will not buy NIKE products.

Backpacking Light – sit up and take notice, too. Do you speak for us?

A disgruntled TRIPLE CROWNER!!! I'm out there as much as the guys.

[Barbara Karagosian]

Thanks for that Melanie. It is so true – REI is a prime example with their racks of gear and options for men, and few serious options for women, other than cutesy tshirts. They have half the choices for shoes and boots too. I wonder how many women there are on BPL staff? Or women doing gear reviews in general? Yes I know, I could step up!

[David Chenault]

Melanie, you'll be pleased to know that most of the coats in this review come in a women's version. I ought to have been more plain about that.

I've always assumed that the percentage of BPL female readership is much greater than the (seemingly tiny) percentage of BPL forum participants. I'd like to see more of them writing articles, too.

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