Oct 17, 2011 at 2:39 pm #1280749
My two sons and I are going to the Philmont Scout Reservation in August 2012 and we need to upgrade our current packs. We want to stay with an exterior frame, and from what I've read, DD is about the best external frame pack there is. We don't have a preference at this time (longbed, shortbed, T1 etc.), just want something dependable. As for sizes – we are three different body dimensions with torsos that measure from 15" to 21" and waists measuring from 34" to 38" so we'll have to just see what's out there that may work for us.Oct 17, 2011 at 3:13 pm #1791702
Dale WambaughBPL Member
@dwambaughLocale: Pacific Northwest
Consider the Osprey Exos series packs. They have external frames and excellent weight transfer. The Dana packs are outdated and heavy. If you can find three for sale, you will pay a premium for the mystique and I assume that you aren't a collector. You will get a lifetime warranty with the Osprey packs and a good range of sizes for your crew.
You may need a membership to read the series of articles on framed packs, but it is worth it:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/lw_internal_frame_packs_part_2.htmlOct 17, 2011 at 3:14 pm #1791703
Before you buy another 6-7 pound external frame pack, read this article:
Doug has been to Philmont many times…Oct 17, 2011 at 7:41 pm #1791815
I have a Dana Design T-1 for sale. Size R(egular) frame and size R(regular) belt. If still interested in finding one of these classics, please message me.Oct 17, 2011 at 8:08 pm #1791835
@paintballswimguyLocale: Kansas City
You really should consider looking into internal frame packs (theres a lot more options out there, is the main reason). ULA, MLD, or SMD all offer great options, that are lightweight and very touch. (I have and LOVE my ULA Circuit, it was a great transition coming from a Gregory Palisade).Oct 17, 2011 at 8:15 pm #1791840
@paintballswimguyLocale: Kansas City
You should buy everything else your planning on taking to philmont with you first, before you buy a new pack. It will help you get a pack thats the perfect size, for what you need to carry.Oct 17, 2011 at 11:15 pm #1791879
It is interesting that you knew/know what you want and ask a very specific ? about a certain pack and yet you get info from people (who also do not have what you are looking for) that what you are looking for is not what you want! And they are trying to educate you out of your choice as well- that IMHO is pathetic and uncalled for- especially since you did not ask for it.
If you really want a external for maybe carrying heavy loads at times- then that is what you should get. I use internals most of the time, but a external can be the right tool for a lot of applications. Do you need one, maybe not, but in certain situations they can't be beat. No disrespect- but most of the people on this forum have never carried over 75 pounds for any extended period of time and also have never had a pack that was up to the task. Sorry, but it is true. Do I like to carry that much weight myself?- no, but if I have to- I want a pack that is up to the task. When you have to pack a hard earned Elk out of canyon 4-5 miles in the wilderness by yourself (and make 3-4 round trip loads); you learn to appreciate what a good pack can do for you. And when you do not have one that is up to the task, you also really understand that also. I have been in both situations before, and given the choice, I will take a pack that is up to the task any day.
Now the Dana Design externals are considered one of the best external frames ever made- meant to carry very heavy loads. Still carried by guides in Alaska who carry moose out on them with truly heavy 3 figure loads. Now try doing that with a Osprey Exos (which BTW is NOT a true external) and then tell me after 3 miles with 85-100 pounds on your back with one of those Exos packs (or fill in the blank with any other internal today) with the "updated" frame how you are doing. Carry a load like that, if you can, with the DD external and then tell me which one you want to continue the pack out with- the DD or the Exos. Tell me after that which one is the "mystique".
There are very few internal made today that are made for carrying truly heavy loads, most do not even have the stitching that can handle the loads. And if you want a good external the old DD externals can't be beat. I can tell you that they are every bit as good as what is made today. I now have a new Mystery Ranch (current Dana Design company) NICE frame that is now used by the US Military and hunters to carry very heavy loads and they are quality bomb proof packs. They are kind of a hybrid ext./int. type frame. And I also have a DD external frame (T-1) and if I had to pick which one was more comfortable for carrying heavy loads- I would go with the DD external instead of the MR Nice frame. Even for 60-70 pounds, the old DD external beats the new MR Nice frame. That is not just my consensus- it is shared by others who have used both.
So, before someone tells you that supposedly old technology is not good enough, they should compare it with some of the best new technology that is more of a fair comparison. For all I know when you say you want a good external pack- you know what you want, and who am I to tell you that is not what you want. And no one else should do the same.
Now if I want to go light (and if you were asking for that) I do not bring a heavy external pack frame- there are better options and I bring a light internal. But if I was going to go on a long canoe trip with lots of portages etc. and was going to carry heavy loads- then the DD ext. would be what I would reach for. Or today if I was going to carry a lot of heavy gear into a Scout jamboree (which I did in my scouting days- with a old Camp Trails ext.)- I would now take the DD ext.
So you keep looking for exactly what YOU want.
And enjoy that trip with your boys- you will make memories to last a lifetime.Oct 17, 2011 at 11:30 pm #1791881
If you want me to steer you in a direction of some websites where you may have better luck finding a DD ext pack- send me a PM. And probably, (no guarantees) on those sites- you will probably not be "re-educated" out of what your asking for- unless you ask to be.
And I also saw here that Zeno Marx is selling some DD packs. And I can tell you that he is a stand up fella. Here is is link here:Oct 18, 2011 at 1:07 am #1791893
@oruacat2Locale: Bluegrass country
Get a Dana Designs pack and your sons will be passing them down to their sons and grandsons.Oct 18, 2011 at 7:14 am #1791932
"It is interesting that you knew/know what you want and ask a very specific ? about a certain pack and yet you get info from people (who also do not have what you are looking for) that what you are looking for is not what you want! And they are trying to educate you out of your choice as well- that IMHO is pathetic and uncalled for- especially since you did not ask for it."
BRAVO. BRAVO! While this being a greatly ultralight forum, I don't understand why it is so difficult for some to grasp why light and ultralight philosophies are not the be-all, end-all answers to everyone's needs. While trying to be helpful, it can be presumptuous, rude, and even wasteful of the solicitor's time and/or even money to steer them into inapplicable territory.Oct 18, 2011 at 10:59 am #1792021
BTW, I have one of these packs and if I were going to be schlepping moose parts it would probably be the way to go. That being said, this website is, in fact, called "Backpacking Light"…hence the suggestions to look at other, possibly lightweight options, especially articles such as Doug's (who has been to Philmont 20+ times). It pays to have an open mind in my opinion…Sometimes people don't know what to ask for because they don't know what's out there.Oct 18, 2011 at 11:24 am #1792032
"..Sometimes people don't know what to ask for because they don't know what's out there."
That to me IS a bit presumptuous and arrogant, esp. since the fella seemed to be well aware of what he wanted when he stated -"We want to stay with an exterior frame" – what he was asking for.
Plus BTW- to me, even the comment above about "schlepping moose parts" is a bit insolent.
Even though – "this website is, in fact, called "Backpacking Light".- Not everyone is always looking for an "ultra-light" option for their needs and for the task at hand. It is not always the end all, be all for everything.
And to assume that is what they need, when they clearly did not ask for that is to me just as Zeno stated above- "presumptuous, rude, and even wasteful of the solicitor's time and/or even money to steer them into inapplicable territory."
Ultra light is not always the appropriate means for a given task, and the OP was not asking for a ultra light pack option. He was wondering if anyone had a very specific External frame pack.Oct 18, 2011 at 11:59 am #1792049
I've already tried an internal frame. The Cabela's XPG 4000 (no longer offered) is a beautiful pack! It's virtually bomb-proof and very comfortable, adjustable, lightweight and accessible with many neat features (remind me…why am I looking for a different pack again??) I just am not crazy about the whole pack's surface being right on my back – even those cool mesh back panels that Osprey has. Now I enjoy reading everyone's posts. Keep 'em coming (but I really want a DD ext frame ;)Oct 18, 2011 at 12:01 pm #1792052
I thought this forum allowed for civilized conversations among virtual friends where sharing information and opinions is a valued part of that conversation? I guess that's not true for all participants, though. Too bad. We're all obviously entitled to our own opinions, which is what makes this free interchange of information fun. Sometimes, positive participation and an open mind yield unforseen results.Oct 18, 2011 at 12:13 pm #1792057
@timalanLocale: Mid Atlantic
Look at the top of your screen. The banner is "Backpacking Light: Pack Less. Be More." Obviously, we all interpret that different ways.
For me, I interpret BPL as a place where, philosophically, people are seeking to find the lightest systems to meet their needs. If a Dana Designs packs is the lightest piece of gear that meets to OP's needs, then I hope he finds one (or three).
I don't think anyone here was trying to be rude (giving the benefit of the doubt). I trust that if the OP has done enough research, he knows what he is looking for, but seeing that he is not a paying BPL member (therefore, doesn't get to read the in-depth articles), and he's only got 4 posts on this site, I can totally understand people trying to be helpful and offer other options.
If he has looked at all the other options, he can ignore those suggestions, knowing that they were intended to be helpful — no harm done. If he hasn't looked at all the other options, I'm sure he appreciates the insights.
I'm grateful, and I trust the incredible knowledge base that exists in the members here. However, I also know that if I come to BPL, I am certain to get info based in the bias that is what brought this community together — a desire to go lighter. If you post here, you should know what to expect (or you will learn quickly).
If I want a liberal perspective on current events, I don't turn on Fox news; if I want a vegetarian meal, I don't go to McDonalds; if I want to have a quiet conversation with a friend, I don't go to a club blaring techno. When you come to BPL, it comes with its own expectations, and I don't think its wrong for those opinions to be shared, it's part of the health of this community.Oct 18, 2011 at 2:06 pm #1792113
I have to agree with most everything all of you have posted thus far. Being that this is my 1st trip to Philmont, I've read much about it's preparation on the internet, and like most of you, Google searches seeking advise have brought me to BPL. I have not paid for a membership b/c money is tight – and I believe I am getting the information I seek without the membership. No so? Perhaps, but I can spend that $25 on a pair of ex-officio undies for me or my sons =] One of the things I've learned from BPL is that I can make my own cuben fiber tarp to save weight. Perhaps one better – I learned about CCS Tundra Tarps and Vargo titanium stakes from this site, and have purchased those items for our crews to use next year. I've also shared many pieces of wisdom from this site with the participants of our crews but the bottom line is, inevitably, some of these boys are going to show up with 4.5 lb sleeping bags and other heavy items that could be replaced with more expensive, lighter gear. I'm going to bet that some of those heavy items are going to end up on the backs of us adult leaders. I want to bring a pack that will be cool in the hot NM sun with room for the kitchen sink (or at least places to strap that sink onto the outside ;) Unfortunately, most of the kids in our troop do not have the means to purchase ultra lightweight gear (believe me, I wish they would), but this site helps them see what's possible. In fact, I'll bet half of these kids aren't too interested in saving ounces – heck, they're teenagers, what do they care. We do teach them about it, and we have been on about four conditioning hikes starting 12 months out. It's ppl like me (overweight, ex-smoker in my 40's) that appreciate reading the forums here. BPL is hardcore, no doubt about it – and Dana Design exterior frames ARE heavy packs that have no business on this site – yet here is where I've learned about them (weird, eh).Oct 18, 2011 at 2:21 pm #1792116
"and Dana Design exterior frames ARE heavy packs that have no business on this site – yet here is where I've learned about them (weird, eh)."
Not weird at all, really. Because, generally, most of the presumptuous, arrogant, rude, wasteful, insolent people on this site are happy to discuss about anything, including Dana Designs packs and others, while also offering opinions and anecdotes and even, gasp, experience with other gear and such. It's how we share, it's how we learn, it's how we grow, pathetic as it is….Oct 18, 2011 at 2:37 pm #1792122
Gossamer Gear (and others) offer nice discounts to Scouts and leaders: gossamergear.com. After discounts, these packs might cost less than the Dana Designs packs. Just a thought…Oct 18, 2011 at 3:12 pm #1792136
Wait a minute… (lol)…. am I supposed to be offended by this post (Douglases)?? Just checkingOct 18, 2011 at 4:15 pm #1792166
" ( but I really want a DD ext frame ; ) "
So, how bout that- the neophyte OP actually knew what he wanted from the start. And still wants that after all of the re- educating, correcting and attempted steering toward something he did not ask for.
The issue that I have is he was very specific with what he was asking for and he posted a WTB request in the gear swap; he did not ask for input from the gear section info sect. He does not want an internal frame- is that OK here? And yet he still gets info about "Gossamer Gear" internal packs when he says $$ is tight. If he wants an external pack and $ is tight, he can still get a inexpensive ext. frame- since that is what he wants.
I figure if someone asks for something specific, I respect that they know what they want and try not to insult their intelligence, or their choices.
To use the food analogy- if a visitor were to come up to a stranger in a new city and say " I would like to find out where I can get a 16 oz. Porter house steak, do you know where is the best place around here to find one? And then if the response they got was " I know where they have great Sushi and the tuna rolls are superb". And I also know of a great vegetarian restaurant". Well if the person asking the ? replied back- "But, I really want a Porter house steak".
Well, what if the person being asked the original ? came back with " Oh, you don't want a steak, you should have some fish or just vegetables, it is lighter and better for you and you will feel better afterwards, plus red meat is not good for you".
Now, that would be some what insulting and condescending – correct. Well it is basically what was done above to the OP. It is not educating that person, it is insulting to their intelligence to imply that they do not know what they want. And he was not asking for that info.Oct 18, 2011 at 4:32 pm #1792174
Hamish McHamishBPL Member
I'm glad we have stephen billings around to keep you lightweight yahoos straight. See what avoiding moose hunting does? Makes ya soft. Next thing you know, you'll set up your own website dedicated to lightweight backpacking and start thinking that less is more, and… wait a minute… OMG I can't believe it…
Dang, I thought I was posting on CarryHeavyCrapBecauseItsManlyYouWuss.com :)
Dan, enjoy Philmont.Oct 18, 2011 at 5:47 pm #1792213
Boy, I bet you are glad that you posted this thread here ;^) – hopefully you are- at least there is some entertainment value.
How dare you to post a request for a external frame pack on a lightweight backpacking forum. What did you think you wanted with that? Was it to possibly carry:
* a pack that is cooler in hot weather?
* a pack that can hold and carry the proverbial "kitchen sink"
* a pack that is capable of carrying extra gear for kids
And just where did you get off thinking that a external pack frame would be good for that. And why do you want to "carry heavy crap" like that anyways?
And why in the world would you think that it would be OK to post that sort of a request on a ultra light forum?
Well it is not, because you will be schooled ;^)Oct 18, 2011 at 6:04 pm #1792220
I guess some of the responses above would be analogous to asking for a Gossamer Gear 2 pound sil-nylon pack for a pack back hunt in the wilderness with the possibility of carrying out 100 pound loads on a backpack hunting forum. They would tell you -your not going to do it very well. And they would be right- it would not work well.
But the thing is here with this WTB thread topic- the OP was asking for the right type of tool for his particular purpose and he not only knew that it was the right one ahead of posting; it was what he wanted.
There is a difference.
He apparently just asked it in the wrong place, and apparently he did not know that ahead of time- guess he did not know the proper etiquette rules.Oct 18, 2011 at 6:12 pm #1792226
Laurens WitBPL Member
I can't believe I could read all this without being a member, this makes me want to join.
I would give my right arm (and loose some unnecessary weight) to spend time around a camp fire with ya'll.
Congrats Dan for taking your son's out backpacking they are lucky to have you.
I'll bet this forum has a whack of camping stuff that isn't doing a whole lot at home. Would someone send this man the pack, I'll Pay shipping.
PM me LaurensOct 18, 2011 at 7:05 pm #1792248
Ron DBPL Member
Stephen – Relax. The OP doesn't have a chip on his shoulder and there is no reason why you should. This is a light weight backpacking site where many members have a strong involvement in scouting and know Philmont. There is nothing wrong with people discussing packs being used at the camp. This is an internet forum, it's relatively friendly and well informed, but it isn't Ebay.
Dan – If you haven't already looked there are a couple of scouting forums here, including one specifically on Philmont. It has discussions on packs at Philmont with input from people with extensive experience there and rangers at the camp. I don't know your background. but I certainly learned things from the scouting forums and you may find some some good insights.
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