has anyone seen this pad before?

[chris kersten]

http://www.klymit.com/index.php/products/ineriaxframe.html

It looks pretty cool but I have never heard of it and was trying to figure out if it was everything it "claims". I tried a search and did not find much. Would it work for side sleepers?

[Link .]

.

[Fred eric]

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/orsm2010_day_1_lightweight_gold.html

I have not seen any user review yet.

[chris kersten]

Hey thanks for the links.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Here's my musings on the X-Frame….in short, it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.

Inflating the X-frame with air gives you very little insulation since there is no internal baffling or reflective layer like the NeoAir. Accordingly, when used with air this pad would limited to warm summer trips only. For most trips you're probably going to want to bring the argon.

If you bring the argon then you need the pad (9.1oz), argon canister (2.1oz) and argon pump (1.6oz) so you're at 12.8oz which isn't much lighter than a NeoAir (14oz) and how far does that argon get you? Klymit doesn't say how long an argon canister lasts for the X-Frame, but they do say it fills the vest 2-6 times and the vest appears to require WAY LESS gas than the pad. I think you'd be doing good to get one fill/canister. So potentially the argon equipped X-Frame would weigh roughly 10.7oz + 2.1oz/day. That adds up quick! For any trip longer than 1 night a NeoAir would be lighter and perhaps warmer since argon is only 33% more insulating then air.

Klymit is coming out with a heavier pump that can re-capture the gas and this would likely make more sense for long trips, but you'd still be starting out heavier than a NeoAir.

In conclusion, the X-Frame is the lightest inflatable pad, but it appears only makes sense for summer use because there are more practical 3 season options. My NeoAir small weighs the same as the X Frame and it gets me 3 seasons of use. A 6.5oz 3/4 length X-Frame could be a neat lightweight summer pad but that's about all the potential I see here.

[Cayenne Redmonk]

I think the design of the pad is to get the user off the ground, for comfort.

All that air space in the frame is now able to let a sleeping bag loft beneath the user. If I understand the design, the sleeping bag is where the insulation beneath the user comes from, not the pad.

Should be fine for three season trips, for people that use sleeping bags.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

I don't think so. The main areas of your body that require insulation (ie. shoulders & hips) are entirely on the pad with no holes. All you've got between your hips and the cold ground is 1.5" of air, so you're going to lose a lot of heat.

If you look at just the torso part of the X-Frame (which is the most important) there aren't that many holes. Looking from left to right, it's filled in where your head, shoulders and hips go. It might comfortable but it doesn't look warm:

[James holden]

id wait to buy it until BPL does a proper test

the history of outdoor gear is littered with new products that failed miserably

there's a reason why the basics of outdoor gear haven't changed all that much in the last few decades

[Roger Caffin]

> the history of outdoor gear is littered with new products that failed miserably
> there's a reason why the basics of outdoor gear haven't changed all that much
> in the last few decades

ROTFLMAO!

Cheers

[Phil O’Connor]

I haven't counted out this pad just yet. Its not only lighter than the neo air but also much cheaper. The Inertia X retails at $99.95 which includes stuff sack, pumps, and repair kit. It ships November 15th I believe so its only a couple weeks before we can get our hands on them.

[Anonymous]

Looks like a pool toy gone poorly. For the insignificant reduction in weight, it isn't worth the risk.

[Kevin Lutz]

Valves, 2 pumps, cartridges, special gas?

Whatever happened to the KISS principle? Looks like a lot to go wrong for minimal weight savings.

It doesn't look very comfortable but I will reserve judgment on that until I actually try one.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

"Its not only lighter than the neo air it's also much cheaper"

Turns out if you want to use argon you need two KwikShot canisters per fill. That equates to 4.2oz and $16 per night! Using argon for a weeklong trip in cool weather would set you back $112 in argon costs and fill your pack with nearly 2 lbs in argon canisters. That's on top of the price and weight of the pad. I think it's pretty clear that using the X frame with argon is a totally impractical idea in the backcountry.

So now we're left with a 9.1oz + 1.2oz (pump) air mattress. The pump is required because Klymit says this pad works properly at 4-5psi which you'll never achieve with your lugs. This 10.3oz total weight is lighter than the NeoAir, but with just air inside the R-value is going to be very low, so it's only good as a summer pad. Who wants to buy a $100 pad that they can only use a few months of the year? I personally would much rather spend $120 on a NeoAir small for less weight, that I can use for 3 seasons.

The only way I can see this pad being appealing to me is if they came out with a <6oz 2/3rds length version for $60. In that case I might be interested as I would save a few ounces in the summer time, but it's still a lot to pay for a piece of gear that often can't be used. Even then, when you add in the weight of the pump then you're looking at saving maybe 2oz in exchange for $100 and giving up a lot of your R-value.

I don't think this pad will sell…Maybe once Klymit's argon re-using pump comes out some backpackers will use it, but that pump is likely going to be quite heavy and your still carrying ~4oz of argon + canister, so a NeoAir is going to be lighter and theoretically warmer than a 1.5" argon pad.

[James holden]

Who wants to buy a $100 pad that they can only use a few months of the year?

yuppay "ULers" who need to be seen "saving" every gram … and with the coolest new gear …

lol

[Nate Alder]

Hello BPL Fans, As founder and CEO of Klymit, I noticed there was some confusion and even misinformation on the Klymit Inertia X Frame on this thread where some questions were posted on another thread only to be miss-construed for a negative post on this thread:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=22758&startat=40

I usually only get involved when people have direct questions that we can answer best, but I thought I would suggest you check out the Klymit website with the true facts, specs, and videos. If you have any questions please let us know:

http://www.klymit.com/index.php/products/sleeping-pads/ineriaxframe.html

You can also find a review from a simple test (including laying on the side) at the Summer Outdoor Retailer (OR) show in SLC this past August where it won the Gear Junkie Award: http://www.utahoutside.com/2010/08/outdoor-retailer-2010-summer-market-klymit-vargo-outdoors-waterbox-and-polarmax/

If any of you pick up the pad please give us your feedback, we are always anxious to improve our gear and we look to you, the thought leaders, to guide our product development.

[James holden]

whats the tested R value of the pad with and without argon?

Thanks,

[chris kersten]

What caught my eye about this pad was the price. I was thinking of the neo air, but at over $150, I felt that was a bit high. I hope it works out well and I would like to try one since my temp. range for camping is 30 to 80 degrees. I waited because your website was saying, "more sizes to come" I am about 73 inches tall. I like that the company watches this website and only jumps in to answer questions and not just to hype their gear.

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

"As founder and CEO of Klymit, I noticed there was some confusion and even misinformation on the Klymit Inertia X Frame on this thread where some questions were posted on another thread only to be miss-construed for a negative post on this thread."

As presumably the person who has miss-construed things, I will respond. I was already discussing argon in the X frame in this thread and I wanted to know how much it the X frame required. I asked the question in the other thread only because that was were you most active and likely to answer. I then continued the argon discussion in this thread where it was already started.

You said it takes two KwikShots to fill it, which are 2.1oz ea and $23.95 for three ($8 ea) as per your posts and website. My conclusion that using argon would require 4.2oz of weight and $16 per night seems solidly rooted in your specifications. What are these 'true facts and specs' that we should find on the website?

My concern here is that this pad is being portrayed (miss-construed?) as something it's not. Your website says that it is a three season pad when inflated with air, yet mattresses filled only with air have very little R-value (ie. 1.0) and other companies selling pads filled only with air refer to them as summer pads or 1 season pads. I realize you are counting on the 'loft pockets' for additional insulation, but these loft pockets are not present in key areas like the head, hips & shoulders so it seems hard to believe this pad would keep you warm in true 3 season conditions. Per the website, you haven't tested it below 32F.

"Used in combination with another pad for 4 seasons camping: Simply put the Inertia – X – Frame under any existing pad and it acts like a thermal cot to lift you off the ground for increase warmth and comfort by simply removing your primary pad from contact with the cold ground which doubles to triples the R-value of any other standard pad placed on top." – Klymit Website

R-values do not work like this. You add R-values, not multiply. When using the X frame under another pad as suggested, the 'loft pockets' act as just air spaces. Air spaces from 0.5" – 4" have an R-value of 1.0. (Source: ColoradoEnergy.org/procorner/stuff/r-values.htm)

The actual enclosed portions of the pad aren't going to be much more insulating since it's also just an air space plus a tiny bit of insulation provided by the thin nylon. At the most, we're looking at R-1.5 in the areas where the pad does not have 'loft pockets'…probably closer to R-1.1.

So when used under another sleeping pad as suggested, the air filled X Frame is going to provide an R-value increase around 1.0, not double to triple the R-value of whatever pad is placed on top. So in practical terms, if someone was to use the X frame under a Thermarest ZLite (R 2.2) they could expect a total R-value around 3.2. That's significantly different than the R-4.4 to 6.6 that your website says you would have. This kind of mis-information doesn't bolster my confidence in your website or product.

[Andrew Dolman]

So, I take it you have to sleep on your back, nicely lined up over the none-gappy bits, be the right size for the pad, not turn or roll in your sleep. Sounds great!

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Supposedly it is also comfortable on your side and stomach. The limited reviews that are out there do say that it's a comfortable pad.

[Brad Groves]

Dan, you've closely followed the two threads, and you did misconstrue the following:

"Using argon for a weeklong trip in cool weather would set you back $112 in argon costs and fill your pack with nearly 2 lbs in argon canisters.

As Nate clearly indicated, "See link later below about our new recycle pump that sucks gas out of the vest and puts into reservoir so you can make 1 canister last for up to years." Obviously, the pump will add weight but it won't be 2 pounds of argon canisters.

I'm just suggesting we all play nice and fair :)

[Franco Darioli]

This reminds me of course of the Neo Air debacle when that one was first announced.
Many here and in the other forums explained at length and with great passion why it would not work.
Sight unseen I decided then that it was going to be a success.
Why ?
Because of what it can do (light, comfy, tiny packed size) rather than what it cannot (warm ice, be unbreakable,cheap)
That is how I see things. Some focus on negatives , I like to see the positives.
What I see with the Klymit is a reasonably affordable light and possibly comfy (more than a blue mat anyway…) mat that will fit inside the pack .
Add a thin pad for security and or warmth and you have a pretty good set up for the shoulder season.
Sure you will be able to puncture that, so you can with most, but well you take your chances at time.
BTW, no I would not suggest this for a Patagonian expedition.
Franco

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Brad, I did mention that recycling pump and it's potential in all of my posts on the subject of argon.

I think the X Frame is a good summer pad. I'd use one…especially a short version. I also think the 'loft pockets' are a good idea when used with a sleeping bag.

[James holden]

was tested to astm standards i believe when it first came out

so you knew you were probably getting the stated R-value

i have yet to see the R-value for the klimat pad … not even on their site other than the reference Dan alluded to

just give me that number …. thats all i ask … with and without argon … lol

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

I think Klymit's hesitation to publish an R-value is because of the complexity that the loft pockets/cutouts add. I can understand this. They are counting the users sleeping bag to provide some of the insulation and a simple R-value for the pad wouldn't reflect this. If you use this pad with a sleeping bag that lofts down into these cutouts, then it would be warmer than if you used the same pad with a sleeping quilt that does not loft down into these pockets.

So the R-value will vary depending on the rest of your setup. For a quilt user you can count on about R-1 the air space in the cutouts and slightly higher (ie. R-1.1) for the rest of the pad since it's also essentially an airspace with a two thin layers of nylon.

If you use a sleeping bag, then you'd have about R-1.1 where you are on the pad (head, shoulders, hips mostly) and in the cutouts you'd have whatever R-value 1 to 1.5" of down provides which is pretty high, but only in a few areas.

I don't know much about the insulating properties of argon, but some quick research indicates that argon is 67% as conductive as air. I'm not certain how you translate this into R-values.
http://www.decompression.org/maiken/Why_Argon.htm

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