No More pup tents please

Re:
"in the middle of the wide expanse of fabric over the foot of the tent"

I agree, that is a large unsupported area, but I have found that the tie-outs on either side and the shallow slope has kept it tight. We experienced less flapping there we did on the side panels, but that was probably because of the wind direction.

I suspect it would sag under wet snow or certain downdraft gusts. I could see adding a tie-out in the center.
I would never use a grip-clip as they tend to stress silnylon and could create an area where water could seep in.

" I have found that the tie-outs on either side and the shallow slope has kept it tight. "

So you use the loops that the toggles to hold open the vestibule use? So, now we need 6 stakes, plus another 4-6 for the side guy-outs, plus the associated guylines??? That's getting to be quite a production!!

My favourite shelter can be pitched taut and quickly with a minimum of 2 stakes…but it's not double walled except if you add the liner…of course in really strong winds (read up to gale), I would add trekking pole supports and extra guy-outs, but not in ordinary weather like we've been having here lately.

"If the silnylon sags too much or wind blows down on it, it's gonna touch that mesh and wick through."

But, the only time you should see the fly touching the inner mesh is in a fairly good wind. Condensation is usually less of an issue if you have that kind of wind.

It will get wet, but not enough to be an issue.

I have never seen the fly touch the mesh, but I may have only seen 20 knot gusts at the most.

I have also never seen enough condensation on the fly to wick through if it did touch, but my experience has only been summer weather so far.

"So you use the loops that the toggles to hold open the vestibule use?"

Only when I think I'm gonna need them. But I would use the extra tie-outs with any shelter if I thought conditions could get nasty. I'd rather take the precaution and not have to deal with issues in the middle of the night.

Some fellow backpackers think it's funny, until they have to deal with flapping and warping of their shelter walls in the middle of the night. Or in the worst case, tent poles breaking and ripping holes in the fly.

"But, the only time you should see the fly touching the inner mesh is in a fairly good wind. Condensation is usually less of an issue if you have that kind of wind."

So I probably got unlucky. My first night started out cold and calm, and I had lots of condensation. This alone was enough to cause the fly to droop, but I did not have those toggle loops staked out. then around 2 am the wind picked up and the fly bellowed in and out, shaking the inner condensation into nice small droplets that easily passed through the mesh inner. How often would I see such conditions?? Often enough that I usually carry the liner for the Double Rainbow, and use it maybe half the time. so, how you enjoy the Haven is no doubt going to depend on the kinds of conditions you mostly encounter. I *may* still keep the Haven, but if I do, I'm going to:

a) Add a guy out to the long side
b) Replace the mesh fabric over the roof with something less water permeable
c) Add some rain porches

It could then be a very nice shelter for my purposes!

I have experienced the issue you are talking about with a few different shelters, even in Henry Shire shelters.

I always make a point of pitching silnylon shelters early and then re-tightening before I go to bed.

There are lots of shelters out there with similar long unsupported sections.
Even though tunnel and dome tents have more support, I have seen the walls flap in the wind just as bad if the side tie-outs haven't been used.
I have been showered with condensation spray under thick heavy polyester fly tents.

I consider that a common issue with tents in general when you are in those conditions.

>I consider that a common issue with tents in general when you are in those conditions.

And you'd be right Steven. It's at those times a dude needs to know where his towel is. I quite often use the condensation for my morning wash. Especially if it's raining outside.

"I consider that a common issue with tents in general when you are in those conditions."

It is not an issue with tents that have a solid liner to shed the condensation. That is what I thought a double skin tent was for…to prevent condensation from the fly entering the inner tent. Also, most other double skinned tents I've used do not allow the fly to touch the inner. The exception was the Nallo 2 where we needed to add a third guy-out at the rear to prevent the inner foot of the tent touching the outer. I believe Hilleberg has corrected this design fault on their newer models. I would hope, rather than take my criticism as hostile, that tent designers might consider the merits of possible modifications…I know for sure of one designer who has taken much of our criticism and used it in a constructive manner, creating a shelter that performs very well in a wide range of conditions.

Lynn said:
b) Replace the mesh fabric over the roof with something less water permeable

Certain manufacturers offer summer and winter inners of course. Which is great. I think one of the selling points of the Haven is the stargazing potential on clear nights.

Maybe Ron would consider a sold inner option for the folks who prefer that.

Hmmm, yes, the star-gazing option would be nice to keep. A solid inner would certainly cut down on the draftiness too. Maybe I'll make myself a new inner. looks a relatively easy MYOG project, and allows me to keep the all-mesh option for fine weather trips. Thanks Rog

"Certain manufacturers offer summer and winter inners of course."

Yes, Hilleberg and Tarptent come to mind, but then it wouldn't be the *lightest* double skinned two person tent. I'm OK with that, but from a UL marketing point of view it may not be a winner. Much lighter to just replace the top panels and leave the mesh sides. Since I always carry a bivy bag anyway, the draftiness can be dealt with. The NF TadPole was great in this respect. A ul version of the TadPole would be interesting…or maybe I really should look closer at the Scarp 2. I can always add a rain porch to the Scarp.

Rog said:
"Maybe Ron would consider a sold inner option for the folks who prefer that."

Or at least partial solid. Maybe on top only like other manufacturers.

For three season, I'd probably stick with the mesh. I have been in those double wall shelters with partial solid and can't tolerate them above 60 deg. F.

To quote Cool Hand Luke: "What we've got here is failure to communicate." Or, at least we did.

This happens all the time with a technical discussion. Someone says something and refers to an imprecise term, confusion ensues and it takes a while before people understand what the heck they are arguing about. In this case, the term was "pup tent". Lynn doesn't like the design. Fair enough. I'm still not sure what tents she doesn't like (since I don't know exactly what constitutes a pup tent) except for the Haven (and it took a while to understand that, apparently). There is nothing wrong with disliking a design. There are plenty of designs that I don't like.

It is important to separate the overall design of a tent with the craftsmanship and detailed design. The basic design for the Contrail, for example, has been around a long time. But if you get a new Contrail (from TarpTent) you are getting state of the art for that design. You might think the little things don't matter, but I'm sure they do.

So there is nothing wrong with saying you don't like the design of the Haven (and similar tents) but feel the craftsmanship (and little things) are just fine. It doesn't mean that others won't buy the tent, it just means that others may be aware of the shortfall with that design, but are willing to live with it. Mentioning other examples of similar tents will make it much easier for people to understand the specific design dislikes. Mentioning imprecise terminology will just add to confusion.

As for me, I don't know what the particular names are, but I think there is a significant difference between tents that have the apex in the middle versus tents that have the apex at the head. I really like the tents that have the apex at the end for the reasons Mary mentioned. I might also add that if I lie on my back, I like to have extra space between my head and the tent (for condensation prevention as well as just to feel less claustrophobic). But I know that lots of people don't feel that way. That is why the Refuge X is still a very popular tent. As for me, I would much rather have a Contrail in Cuben, but no one makes a Contrail (or anything similar) in Cuben. So, the Refuge X, while being a less than optimal design (for me) is still an excellent tent and I'll keep it until someone makes something that I feel is better (for me). I don't feel like paying the weight penalty to use anything else.

Oh, and my all time favorite design: The X-Rocket. If that thing was made in Cuben and Nanoseeum then I would buy one in minute.

What I don't like is ANY design which has a long or wide flat surface on top. It is going to be bad news in bad weather.

Low ends are also bad, as is a lack of ventilation …

Cheers

What I don't like is ANY design which has a long or wide flat surface on top. It is going to be bad news in bad weather.

Low ends are also bad, as is a lack of ventilation …

Agreed. So I got myself a pup tent. :-O

"It's at those times a dude needs to know where his towel is."

Droll. Did anyone else catch that?

Should have been "frood", though, not "dude."

I actually appreciated the Hitchhikers Guide reference lol.

"It is not an issue with tents that have a solid liner to shed the condensation. That is what I thought a double skin tent was for…to prevent condensation from the fly entering the inner tent."

No, it is for wind protection.

Older mountaineering tents were not only double wall, but
had a cotton frost liner to catch condensation
from the middle tent wall.