New shelter

[Adam DuComb]

Hi all,
I've recently started down the path to become a lighter backpacker and my old tent is on the chopping block. I had no idea there were so many other options out the for shelters so I am a little lost. Any help would be great!

For starters, almost all of my backpacking takes place on the east coast and most of that is in the Greens and Whites of New England. So rain, moisture, and bugs are certain. I've never been able to sleep well in hammocks and I'm not ready to do the tarp and bivy set-up yet, so those are out. I am average build at 5'10 and would prefer that my gear stay covered as well. Oh and one last thing, I don't use poles.

I have a few tents in mind that fit my requirements (moment, fly creek,..) but what else is out there that actually fits my requirements, and what do you think the best choice is?

Thanks,
Adam

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

You've listed two good shelters. Another neat option is the SMD Vamp. With the 'tarp' (16oz) and 'nettent' (11oz) you effectively have a double wall tent for 27oz. Add stakes (~2 oz) and trekking poles (GG LT3's @ 5oz for a set) and you've got a full fledged double wall spacious versatile setup for 34oz….less if you want to use sticks instead of poles :)

If you really don't want to use poles, buy can buy collapsible GG LT4 poles (7oz / set) and just toss them on your pack. They may come in handy some day when you sprain an ankle.

[Bill Poett]

HI Adam

You sound like a perfect candidate for the Henry Shires Tarptent Moment.
At 28 ounces, no poles, two peg set up, great company and great reviews its about as close to a no brainer as I can come up with. Check out the reader reviews

Good luck and enjoy the journey… hope you have a big gear closet.

Yours

Bill

[Dan @ Durston Gear]

Put some thought into whether you want a single wall (TT Moment etc) or double wall shelter (SMD Vamp, BA FC1 etc). Once you figure that out, you'll have narrowed it down to only a couple options.

[Adam DuComb]

I've only owned double walled tents, I'm not against trying something new though. My two main concerns about double vs single is protection and condensation/ventilation. Double and single doesn't matter as long as my gear and myself can stay dry when it rains and the inside of my tent is not covered in condensation when it's humid out.

If push came to shove I would pick double because it's what i know.

[Ross Bleakney]

Double walled tents offer some advantages, but overall, most ultralight folks prefer single walled. I recommend this article: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/single_wall_shelters_condensation_factors_tips.html
which will help reduce condensation and hopefully put your mind at ease. It is always a good idea to carry a light towel or bandana to wipe off the condensation (if you get any).

In general, a tarptent makes sense for the conditions you described. I haven't moved to a tarp design because of the bugs. Tarptents are very advanced right now. I think just about any choice from either tarptent or six moons will be a winner. The choice often comes down to personal preference. For example, I like a tent with lots of space above my head when I lie down, so I like the Contrail. Others like the side entry or lower profile of other tents. I also want to add that tents that use trekking poles don't require them. You can get regular poles for those tents from the tent maker or other sources. It's just that one of the big advantages of that design is reduced when you don't carry poles already.

[David Ure]

Managing the effects of condensation is easier in a double walled shelter. Given that the weight difference is getting closer and closer to that of single walled shelters, the newer double walls are worth a consideration. Having said that, you will always get more room per weight with a single wall.

[JR Redding]

Adam – Being originally from New Hampshire myself, you're trekking in the same areas I did for years. I have had mixed results with various types of shelters in that area, dependent upon conditions.

Overall though, if you choose a good campsite, a single wall tarptent works rather well. However if you do something like pitch on an exposed ridgeline in the whites, get a nice wind and rainstorm, you will probably have some moisture issues.

If you plan on packing in the snow season, you could get away with a tarptent, but would probably be better suited to a double wall tent like the Scarp.

What I have always paid attention to first and foremost with any tent is how the floor is laid out, and what the size of the floor is. If the floor area mights my own personal criteria then you look at the other features, weight, single wall, double wall, entry, exit etc. Some people like front entry, some people like side entry. Do you want room to sit up in?

Think about how you like to be comfortable and then apply those criteria to all the choices of tents out there to come up with what is suitable for you at a weight you want to carry.

One other noteworthy mention, Condensation: Always carry a Shamwow type shammy with you. Whether the condensation is on the inside or out, the shammy's allow you to quickly dry off the walls before tearing down in the mornings.

[Keith Selbo]

Adam – I've lived with a single walled tent and condensation is completely manageable if you follow these words of advice:

"Don't touch the walls!"

That requires a combination of discipline and a more spacious tent than you might need if you camp in a double wall. Condensation will run harmlessly down the single wall and, if your tent is properly designed, onto the ground.

I say that because my first single wall allowed the water to run down into the bathtub floor. The GossamerGear ONE (16 oz. sans poles) manages this problem by insetting the bathtub floor so that the netting that connects the bathtub to the tent wall is nearly horizontal so the runoff drips through the net onto the ground.

I think I saw another design where the netting attached to the base of the bathtub rather than the rim. The water apparently piles up against the bathtub until hydrostatic pressure forces it through the netting and onto the ground.

Anyway, check out the One. It's designed for trekking poles (which saved me on a wet, icy trail this weekend)but GG sells poles for it too.

[Adam DuComb]

Thanks everyone! You all have valid points and options for me. At this point, after looking at some of them, I feel as if all are very lightweight but some of the tent don't look like they will keep the weather outside in a good storm. I am just starting to become a lighter backpacker so the lightest possible weight is not my first requirement, but more so protection (as almost anything will be lighter than what I currently own).

Anything under 4lbs will be better than what I use now, but I would prefer to be in the <3lbs range. However, the tent must have good 3 season weather protection for me and my gear even in heavy storms (so a double wall with a vestibule would be ideal), good ventilation (minimal condensation), and a little durability would be nice too. Maybe I require too much?

Also, could someone clarify this for me. On the TT website they say their material is "waterproof within normal operating conditions". So is it waterproof when it rains, but not when it pours?

The suggested list is currently:
Big Agnes Fly Creek (Copper Spur?)
TT Moment (Scarp?)
SMD Vamp
GG One

Thanks again,
Adam

[Hendrik Morkel]

"Also, could someone clarify this for me. On the TT website they say their material is "waterproof within normal operating conditions". So is it waterproof when it rains, but not when it pours?"

Adam, my Scarp 1 holds up just fine, in a downpour like under snow. Don't worry there.

I'd also suggest the TT Moment to you, I think especially the protection it gives you would be good. And heck, its fast to put up and looks real nice. Would be my choice if I'd be right now in your shoes =)

[Andy F]

Adam,

Here's a thread about the limitations of silnylon:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=14966

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Adam,

I echo Bill Poett's recommendation of the TT Moment.
I had a TT Contrail for 3 summers and liked it, except when it flapped in high winds.

I sold the Contrail to a guy in Kentucky, a wooded state more suited to the Contrail's "forest tent" purpose. Then I bought the Moment and couldn't be happier.

You'll hear about single wall silnylon tents "misting" in a driving thunderstorm and it may be true but I've not yet experienced that problem.

To prevent that possibility in the Moment I not only seam sealed the tent but continued on to coat the top 1/2 of the canopy with the light seam sealer mixture. It may have added an ounce of weight but it also added a lot of security from the possibility of misting through in a monsoon-type rain we get here in the western mountains in late summer.

I can't recommend the TT Moment enough. With a vestibule large enough to contain your pack to the left of the inner door AND cook at the same time it outclasses the Contrail and similar vestibules by a mile.

Plus the Moment's ability to easily withstand high winds is something I can attest to personally.

This tent has many good details and it shows how much design effort Henry Shires put into it. Yeah, it weighs 2 oz. more than the Contrail but it's 2 oz. of more useable headroom, vestibule and great ventilation. A tiny weight price to pay for a great tent.

[Fred Eoff]

Eric:
Thanks, your comments are exactly what I have been looking for contrasting the Contrail and the Moment. I too have happily used the Contrail in the NW for 3 seasons but am pretty intrigued with the Moment. Your first hand observations are very useful.

Fred

[Adam DuComb]

Coating the fly, thats interesting. So the Moment seems to be the popular suggestion. What about the Scarp? I like the layout more and the double wall is nice too.

In terms of fly/floor material, how do the TT and the Big Agnes compare and what about the usable space? Anyone out there have experience with both?

One last thing. Are there any other options out there that haven't been mentioned or over looked up to, or around, the 3 lb mark?

[Gabe P]

If protection is your primary concern, you could look at the Hilleberg Akto. Or you could reduce your shelter weight and retain many of the protective features of the Akto by purchasing a Terra Nova Laser Competition or Photon. All three tents aren't what I would think of as typical shelters for "light" backpacking, but they're lighter than most double wall shelters — 56 oz for the Akto down to 27 oz for the Photon. They may, however, be a bit warm for where you intend to use them.

Anything from Henry Shires (i.e. TT) is worth looking at.

[Don Selesky]

"You'll hear about single wall silnylon tents "misting" in a driving thunderstorm and it may be true but I've not yet experienced that problem."

I had that problem with a Cuben tarp two summers ago in a driving Vermont thunderstorm. And I can definitely confirm it was misting, big time.

[Gabe P]

FYI

Review of the Laser Competition:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/terra_nova_laser_competition_review.html

Review of the Laser Photon:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/terra_nova_laser_photon_tent_review.html

Review of the Akto:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/hilleberg_akto_tent_review.html

Review of the Scarp 2:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/tarptent_scarp2_tent.html

[Lynn Tramper]

"I had that problem with a Cuben tarp two summers ago in a driving Vermont thunderstorm. And I can definitely confirm it was misting, big time."

Hmmm, seems strange. Silnylon, maybe (though I haven't experienced it), cuben seems unlikely. Are you sure the rain wasn't just misting the condensation off the inside of the tent? I have experienced this with cuben (and silnyon).

[Greg Mihalik]

"I had that problem with a Cuben tarp two summers ago in a driving Vermont thunderstorm. And I can definitely confirm it was misting, big time."

I don't doubt you had 'misting'. The question that arises is "What was the source of the mist?"

The films used in making Cuben fabric have zero porosity. A firehose won't drive water through.

That leaves condensation. Not an unlikely scenario in a humid environment that is getting chilled by the weather.

[Don Selesky]

"Hmmm, seems strange. Silnylon, maybe (though I haven't experienced it), cuben seems unlikely. Are you sure the rain wasn't just misting the condensation off the inside of the tent? I have experienced this with cuben (and silnyon)."

"I don't doubt you had 'misting'. The question that arises is "What was the source of the mist?"
The films used in making Cuben fabric have zero porosity. A firehose won't drive water through.
That leaves condensation. Not an unlikely scenario in a humid environment that is getting chilled by the weather."

Here's the scenario: we arrived at camp just as the rain was starting. I got the tarp and hammock up, and then it really began to pour. The driving rain lasted for three solid hours. The tarp was directly over me, and my face was being pelted by drops of water coming from under the tarp.

My assumption was that there was no way that condensation could form underneath the tarp at a rate that corresponded to the rate at which I was being hit by drops of water. It was a steady, and considerable, spray of water. Also, there was no change in temperature at that point (that I could feel, anyway) that would have caused *so* much condensation. Had the tarp been out for hours as the temperature dropped, and then the rain came, I could see the force of the rain dislodging the drops that formed under the tarp. But in this case, there just wasn't time.

And by rain, I mean the Mother Of All Rainstorms, one that would have forced me to pull off to the side of the road if I had been driving. A real zero visibility deluge.

I can only report what happened and what I saw. If anyone has a better explanation, I'd like to hear it.

[Bob Gross]

It _does_ sound like fun.
–B.G.–

[Lori P]

Is there a seam on the tarp? Do you use one of those ridgeline setups where the line is strung between two trees and the tarp attached to it, and if so, was the line below the tarp? The only thing I can think of is a scenario in which a seam wasn't sealed or the seam sealing hadn't "took" for some reason. Or a line drawing the water under the tarp. Unless it was some really odd combo of site selection and weather?

The one and only time I had any condensation of any kind on a tarp and hammock setup was in a river valley – the ground was saturated to the max, the river was probably 150 feet from camp down a hill, and the temps at night were in the mid-40F range. No rain, a few drifting clouds, and the (MacCat silnylon) tarp was wet on the top and bottom – I like my tarp set up high and wide. All the tents had condesation as well. We spent an hour and a half with everything spread out in the morning sun to dry.

I've been out in ongoing all night rain before and not had a drop of condensation – everything under the tarp dry as a bone.

[Adam DuComb]

So what do you guys think of the scarp? How does it compare to the moment?

Also can anyone give input on the fabric of TT vs Big Agnes and the livabilitly of the scarp vs moment vs the fly creek?

Thanks
Adam

[Sam Farrington]

Don,
My experience is that in a major downpour, water will find its way through if there is a way through, even when the way is not apparent to the naked eye. This can occur at a seam, as noted by Lori, or where there is a not easily seen flaw in the mylar (cuben) or the fabric coating (sil). Although Roger Caffin has not agreed with me about this, I believe a pin hole (or a tiny slit), when exposed directly to driving rain, will allow water to drip through. Suggest the solution is to go over the fabric with a high energy backlight looking for flaws. Also, to insure there are no breaks in the seams, I triple coat sil seams with a higly diluted solution of silicon and white gas stove fuel. Thought the gas would smell terrrible, but bought a can of stove fuel in Walmart, and found that it did not, and that the silicon was more miscible in the gas than in mineral spirits. Don't use cuben, so am not sure how best to seal it (there was a thread about this recently); but suggest that a quite diluted solution is the key to fully penetrating the seams.
After years of good service, I finally had to retire an older tent because it did this in the rain, although I could not find the leak point. Think the urethane coating finally lost its effectiveness, although this would not apply to the mylar in cuben. But it did illustrate that leak points can be practically invisible.

Regarding the Scarp and the Moment, I don't think they are comparable. The Scarp is an all season tent, with an inner wall of DWR treated fabric for additional protection, as well as control of condensation.
The Moment is a smaller tent that I would not try to use well above treeline, in winter or other really cold conditions. But it is a great fair weather tent, much simpler to pitch, and if you like to remove the struts for carrying as I do, has only four struts to deal with. And Wow, does it pitch taut. Was going to make a carbon end-to-end pole, but decided it was not really needed.
Sam

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