Barefooted like shoes?

[Nat Lim]

I was wondering where one could find alternatives similar to the five finger vibrams? (I have narrow feet, Vibrams will not fit properly).

For years I have been using water shoes for backpacking(dependent on the season), hiking, approach and daily wear, but def interested in a pair that is nothing more than a protective rubber cover for the sole (kinda like moccasins) but with a uppers made out of durable material is quicker drying than neoprene yet insulative, and has some sort of tension system like lace.

[Lynn Tramper]

Hmmmm, why not just make some moccassins? I grew up with these on my feet and can't recommend them highly enough.

[Stumphges]

You might want to try Vivo Barefoot shoes. They appear fairly narrow from pictures I've seen of them. They have a functional design – with zip-off rubber outsoles and kevlar midsoles. They don't have differentiated toes like the Five-Fingers, but should still give a minimalist, close-to-the -ground footfall experience.

[Mark Verber]

I have no trail experience with the vivo barefoot shoes but one of my coworkers used to wear them all the time. He recommended against the models with the zippers for two reasons. First, the zipper was known to fail. Second, he was never able to purchase just the replaceable sole here in the US… so it was better to get one with the sewn on sole to save weight and do away with the problem of zipper failure. A couple of years ago he switched from the vivo to nike free which are very similar to inov-8, though with a less aggressive sole. I would note that vivo soles provide great traction on concrete, but aren't very good on what is often found in the field, e.g. dirt, gravel, scree, vegetation, etc. Vivos are pretty light though… size US11/UK44 Aqua sneakers are around 18oz for a pair. I need a good size toe box and a narrow heel… the aqua fit me pretty well. Around town they have been comfortable with and without socks.

–mark

[David Lewis]

The Nike Free might be an option. You're not worried about traction / slipping?

[Nat Lim]

The weird thing is, merely a speculation, is that the water shoes beckoned one to walk more 'naturally', thus at first slippage was an issue, but as time wore on and the user ( aka yours truly) adapted to the different style of walking /foot placement, slippage became less of an issue.

Second thing that may have played a factor is how low the soles of the feet in the water shoes are in relation to the ground, noticed that my center of balance is alot more stable, and at the same time could "feel" the ground alot more solidly than I could in running shoes, this really helped with dealing with negotiating off-balance rock, dirt scree, etc.

Thanks for the insights on Vivo (that's pricey!), With Nike, I signed a waiver with a human rights organization a decade ago agreeing not to buy Nike products, (though a bit hypocritical considering the fact of what else one uses, eats, lives in is manufactured or grown by those in equally or less than ideal conditions, but nonetheless abiding by the agreement b.c i had made a promise, and I also strongly dislike breaking promises. Moccassins may be a great idea too thanks for suggestion as well!

Any other thoughts?

[Stumphges]

Thanks for the info on the Vivos Mark. I've been curious for a long time – now I think I'll skip them.

I've tried Nike Free and was pretty disapointed. The basic idea is good – a grooved midsole/outsole that allows the flexibility of a shoe with a much thinner sole, while preserving the cushioning. I expect that Nat doesn't need that cushioning, having become accustomed to the low-impact footfall of unshod or barely shod walking. My problem with the shoes was the poor implementation – they build up certain areas of the midsole (arch, lateral forefoot) while scraping out others (heel) in a fashion that more or less destroyed the elegance of the concept (and patent) they're working with.

"Barefoot shoes", aside from being an oxymoron, are pretty hard to find. There are a couple concept designs floating around, but none have reached the production phase that I'm aware of.

A do-it-yourself idea would be to take a pair of quick-drying socks and 'paint' the soles either with liquid latex (which some modern mocassin makers use – durability will be an issue if used offtrail or on a thruhike) or with a mixture of rubber cement and rubber flakes (also used by some mocassin makers and sold in tins by one of them – I'll try to find it and post). These may be wacky options, but I can't think of any manafactured products to recommend, and I've looked.

Regarding cushioning, the Journal of Rheumatology published a study last year looking at the difference in joint loads experienced by people wearing shoes and barefoot. Surprisingly, loads, particularly at the knee, were reduced dramatically in the barefoot condition. They weren't able to explain the results, but its likely that a variety of factors, both biomechanical and propioceptive, combine to make unshod walking more efficient and less jarring.

[Nat Lim]

What do u guys think of using climbing shoes as replacement moccassin/watershoes? Now that I think about it (I have several pairs of climbing shoes, and I do sometimes walk in them on the descent in my long day shoes), they're tough, have a very low profile, have a very soft sole so that it flexes with the foot, and some models dry quickly.

Any thoughts or opinions?

[Jeremy Greene]

If your shoes are comfortable enough for extended hiking they are probably not helping you climb.

[Nat Lim]

whoops! Should have clarified: only in my all day climbing shoes can I walk down a decent in them and possibly to from the car or camp!

[Ian Schumann]

I would recommend very strongly against climbing shoes, even old school lace-ups that are made for long multi-pitch climbs.

No climbing shoe is designed for walking. Sure, some more-comfortable models may *allow* walking for short periods, but the structure of a climbing shoe is terrible for lots of walking because:
A) Unlike in walking, there is no use for sole flexion in climbing, and so the shoes don't allow it! Either they're flat, stiff, board-lasted and hold your foot straight and rigid, or they're bouldering slippers with an aggressive camber–NEITHER of which is good for walking on!
B) Climbing shoes don't care about your toes. In fact they hate your toes.
C) Climbing shoes concentrate weight and force onto the front of your foot, usually underneath the big toe. Read: good for climbing, awful for walking.

Just my $.02

[Nat Lim]

Hey Ian & Jeremy, good insight and advice on the climbing shoes!

Some questions: Sole flexion, what exactly is the sole flexion and it's function?

How are do modern shoes take this into consideration; as well as what should one be looking for in a shoe? (I assume it allows the fore-front of the shoe to flex in a natural motion like a stepping off the ball/toes?)

Def right about bouldering shoes being somewhat uncomfortable! My multi-pitch shoes are actually soft slippers (5.10 Moccasyms) sized so that my toes lie just about flat, they've been absolutely fantastic!

My approach shoes / hiking shoes are actually watershoes fitted tight.

Def have to look around some more, or make a pair of Mocs…the Terra Plana Vivos def look great (albiet a bit pricey)

Thanks!

[d g]

edited

[Barbara Dace]

You can find VIVO's on eBay for $35-45, plus shipping. Save a search and asked to be emailed when they come up.

[bemany pife]

have you tried any puma's?

http://store.puma.com/pumaUSStore/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=PumaUS&category%5Fname=MensBestSellersFootwear&product%5Fid=18277407&productType=Footwear&mainCategory=Men&shopBy=style&siteid=1

or

http://www.6pm.com/n/p/p/7191029/c/47559.html

I've been trail/street running in these for years (the model changes every year a bit) , they feel more like socks with a durable bottom.

oh you may want to wear some low gaiters with them, they have a tendancy to get sand/skree in them b/c they are cut so low.

[Stumphges]

Hey Nat,

Regarding shoe flexion – the general rule is that a shoe should bend where the foot bends.

Taken as a unit, the foot/ankle complex must flex at two places, preferably without restriction, in order for normal walking to be possible: 1) The ankle must be able to flex, or dorsiflex, so that the top of the foot moves closer to the shin. Most shoes don't interfere with this at all.

2) The toes must be able to flex at the ball of the foot. While walking, one's center of gravity progresses from the heel, at the beginning of the step, to the ball of the foot, at the end of the step. When the center of gravity passes the ball of the foot the heel lifts off the ground allowing the center of gravity to progress forward into the next step. The heel lift off the ground is made possible by flexibility at the ball of the foot.

If you take a shoe that has no flexibility at the ball of the foot, like a climbing shoe, and walk on it, you're effectively making the foot longer – as now the center of gravity must move to the end of the toes before the heel can lift. This will require more flexibility at the ankle, which can lead to calf muscle strain and achilles tendon problems. To make matters worse, the arch of the foot can also attempt to compensate for restriction at the ball of the foot by collapsing or buckling, which allows the heel to rise without bending the toes. This is very bad news, and is one contributing factor for 'hyperpronation' that everyone is trying to avoid with expensive motion control running shoes (that may or may not have flexibility at the ball of the foot).

[bemany pife]

Hey there!

I just got back from my local sporting goods store and saw these:

http://www.keenfootwear.com/product_detail.aspx?sku=5114

From Keen shoes! they seem like they might have many other shoes to fit your needs!

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