Mar 31, 2014 at 9:30 am #1315074
@hknewmanLocale: Western US
First one in relation to my other post about the incident of homeless being shot for illegal camping near the Sandia NF (he later died), there was a protest by younger residents against the police that went violent. One young man even brought what seemed to be a rifle (AK-47) but was persuaded to put it away (assuming it was it functional).
.., then the Albuquerque paper at http://www.abqjournal.com/376598/news/hundreds-hit-streets-in-protest-against-apd.html
Second was the latest athletic riot where the Tuscon police needed to restore order due to a basketball game loss (though riots have occurred in wins too … sports hooliganism has been around but I do not recall taking on the police like this?)
Reason I post this is I've noted a tendency getting worse over the last 25 years to react more. About 10 years ago, I barely missed a nationally televised high school riot near work (it was a new school in a good part of town btw); now 15 years before, I've seen university frats riot over sports but not take on the police. So while we do have the right to protest whatever (w/permit) and I can see if getting emotional if a draft card would have sent them to Vietnam. Damaging property and fighting the police over a basketball loss (or win)? Do you think the young are more willing to go toe to toe with local police forces?
ed: brevityMar 31, 2014 at 4:15 pm #2088185
Never mind the protest, what about the murder of the camper?
I watched the footage. The homeless guy drops his stuff when challenged and puts his arms out away from his body. Then the footage cuts to a view of him lying fatally wounded on the ground. At this point, I don't suppose the police (who look like military) had any idea whether he was a vagrant or a dumbass british tourist who thought wild camping wasn't a problem.
What's going on in the land of the free?Mar 31, 2014 at 7:02 pm #2088234
"What's going on in the land of the free?"
Oh thanks for asking. Well the kids are on their way to the Oregon Coast to enjoy spring break with their cousins and grandparents. You'd think my wife and I would have a week of fun and exciting things planned but sadly work, work and more work is all that's on the docket for the week. A natural gas plant exploded not too far away from where I live so THAT was certainly exciting. Our neighbor's dog had puppies and it looks like the last one went to a good home. The president of our HOA has been a real tool this year but rumor has it that my neighbor Kirk is going to run against him. We all wish him well. Just put some new tires on the truck; even though I drive a 1/2 ton, decided to go with 10-ply since we tow a travel trailer from time to time. Just ran five miles along the Columbia River… beautiful afternoon and hope we can hang on to this beautiful weather for a bit longer. Have to admit that I'm on the post apocalypse bandwagon so had to watch Divergent this weekend… I give it a thumb’s up.
Oh let's see… what else… what else… a few hundred thousand American police officers went to work today, performed their jobs with honor and in accordance with the U.S. Constitution, and 99.999999% of them would run into harm’s way to save you so you can spend yet another day on this wonderful planet of ours pondering global warming and the meaning of mayonnaise.
Edit: again… thanks for asking. It really means a lot.Mar 31, 2014 at 7:22 pm #2088240
That does not excuse when and how they really blow it.Mar 31, 2014 at 7:27 pm #2088243
Nobody is excusing it. A local teacher inappropriately touched a student. Should I now hold all teachers in the "land of the free" in contempt for the behavior of a bad apple?Mar 31, 2014 at 7:35 pm #2088244
No you shouldn't, but there needs to be accountability. Honestly I think that I should not be worried about being pulled over or peacefully protesting . Sure, if I behave just right all will go well. Should I talk back?? How is that much different than a wife whose husband works hard, provides, means well, would jump through fire to save his family….yet should she mouth off she'll get the $hit beaten out of her?
At the end of the day we are equal people and I should be able to talk, discuss and act as I do with anyone else. Respectfully yes. With fear and intimidation? No.
And no, I am not saying that is how all police officers operate, but enough to make it a problem.Mar 31, 2014 at 8:00 pm #2088255
If you're being treated like that, then you need to contact the police chief, internal affairs/OIG/OPR/EIEIO, FBI etc as what you're describing is unprofessional and a violation of civil rights.Mar 31, 2014 at 8:16 pm #2088260
I appreciate you saying that Ian.Mar 31, 2014 at 11:43 pm #2088318
Ian: "a few hundred thousand American police officers went to work today, performed their jobs with honor and in accordance with the U.S. Constitution, and 99.999999% of them would run into harm’s way to save you so you can spend yet another day on this wonderful planet of ours pondering global warming and the meaning of mayonnaise."
A lot of cops would stand at the edge of a lake watching someone drown because they'd get into trouble for not filling out a health and safety assessment before jumping in to save them. Happened in the UK a couple of years back.
And I wasn't generalising about the majority of cops anyway. It's the 'homeland security helmetcam and auto-rifle' types who look like they need some retraining.
Post 9/11 Anti-terror laws seem to have made a big difference to law enforcement attitudes over there.
Mind you, there is this too:
The UK police have shot and killed 18 since 1980 in a country with 1/4 the US population. They are trained to make leg shots.
587 shot dead by police in the US in 2012.
law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States_2012Apr 1, 2014 at 6:44 am #2088361
@retiredjerryLocale: Oregon and Washington
There was just a story on the TV about an off duty cop that pulled a couple people out of a burning car, got burned a little, they were DUI,…Apr 1, 2014 at 9:59 am #2088409
While every American has a 97% chance of being shot in the face at some point in their lives, it looks like you're safe and sound…
.Apr 1, 2014 at 11:53 am #2088450
Well, sure. If we constantly ate the bland slop you blokes call food, we'd probably have the fight taken out of us as well…Apr 1, 2014 at 12:25 pm #2088462
How much is the increasing militarization of the police due to the increasing abundance of high powered semi-auto, high capacity weaponry amongst civilians?
It's my understanding that the North Hollywood bank robbery of 1997 was a turning point in the Los Angeles area, promoting police to start carrying AR15s and more armor.
Have we created an arms race between citizens and our own police departments?
Tell me that the fact that the average person can walk into a gun shop and buy one of these ^^^^ doesn't change law enforcement calculus in a major way. I suppose that if you want a society armed to the teeth, you're going to get a police force that has to surpass it. I suspect it's why we see so many police that look more like soldiers on our streets today.Apr 1, 2014 at 12:39 pm #2088466
@kennyhel77Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Craig hits it out of the ballpark. Kat why do the police get some much hate? I simply don't understand your disdain for authority……and this is coming from someone who has questioned authority his whole life…..a punk rocker. LolApr 1, 2014 at 1:12 pm #2088479
No hate here. No disdain either. My step daughter is dating the son of a police chief, a really nice guy. I question authority that is all and I think that in itself ought not to get me into trouble, not on this forum, nor on the street .
The fact that two very reasonable people on the forum have sent me pms cautioning me that what I posted could get me into trouble…..is troubling in itself. You tell me…should I get into trouble for my posts on this subject?Apr 1, 2014 at 1:15 pm #2088480
I have never been In trouble with the law. No moving violations, nothing at all. I have questioned some actions of local officers when I was younger and saw some things I disagreed with. I wish more people would speak up when they saw something wrong. And I speak up on all kinds of things that seem wrong to me, what is the difference here?
Maybe it is having been raised in Europe, where wars happened in-house, hearing stories from family from both sides: those that obeyed authority without questioning and those that were on the receiving end of that,Apr 1, 2014 at 1:45 pm #2088495
Doug: Well, sure. If we constantly ate the bland slop you blokes call food, we'd probably have the fight taken out of us as well…
I enjoyed my 14oz Aberdeen angus steak with a couple of fine locally brewed ales outside on the terrace of a town centre public house this evening. The warmest day of the year so far. Life north of Watford gap isn't all bad.Apr 1, 2014 at 2:05 pm #2088503
@kennyhel77Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
All reasonable responses Kat. I getcha and agree. Should any of us post stuff on here and risk retaliation? Dunno….how.much of a Nanny State have we become? I have seen some F'd up stuff in my life when it comes to police brutality. ….however I think most police officers do the right thing. Maybe the actions of others in tense situations cause police to act with rage. I have learned that there are times to speak up and times to close my mouth as I like the way my teeth look when I rarely smile :)…..however you can't expect to go toe to toe with a police officer and expect to come out fine…..and nor should you. What about when a suspect reaches for the officers revolver? All bets are off as far as I am concerned. The officer has the right to defend him/herself no? I see a lot of outrage when this does occur….same goes for all the hit and run crashes that occur. Get out and run. People today do things differently these days. …no remorse or the fact that many have no respect for othersApr 1, 2014 at 2:14 pm #2088509
All joking aside, the video in question is sad. Craig touched on it but the referenced bank robbery brought to light how woefully underpowered US Police were against criminals. Also, it's important to note that a .223/.556 round is actually safer in an urban environment than a 9mm is. Plenty of research on that topic which you can google on your own.
I'm truly happy for you that this isn't an issue in the UK but things are different over here.Apr 1, 2014 at 2:20 pm #2088513
I respect the job most officers do and the risks they take and I am certainly not willing to take something like that on.
There should be no taboo though and criticism and questioning should be ok and healthy, if done with an honest intention and with respect.
I have never spoken to an officer with disrespect, but when I was younger I did approach some that I thought were abusing someone and questioned what and how they were doing it. That happened twice. Other people thought I was just asking for trouble and said I was lucky to be a young white female. All I did was want to talk to them "as if" they were normal people, which in my book should be ok.Apr 1, 2014 at 2:30 pm #2088516
A couple people have mentioned concerns about getting in trouble for commenting on this thread which makes little sense to me. Maybe in the court of BPL but compared to other conversations that have taken place in Chaff, I very much doubt it.
If we're talking about U.S. law, I fail to see it. Police and the military are servants of the people and serve at their will. The citizenry are by no means under any obligation to withhold criticism. It's certainly unwise to start calling a police officer a “goose stepping Nazi” when they're still trying to make a determination if they'll issue you a citation or let you go with a warning (especially when you've factually committed an offense) but for crying out loud, Americans have been thumbing their noses at authority since 1776. No reason to think that's going to change any time soon. I've been called everything in the book and was once &!+@# slapped in the back of the head by a 90 y/o woman when I was giving her son first aid after he broke his leg in a field (no she was not arrested… I still have to sleep at night). I see no libel, slander, threats, etc but maybe someone else sees things differently (edit but of course I'm not an attorney either).
If I wanted people to run up and hug me, I would have been a firefighter. A police officer who can't take a little criticism or the occasional spit in their food should have found another line of work.Apr 1, 2014 at 3:15 pm #2088531Apr 2, 2014 at 7:26 am #2088724
@hknewmanLocale: Western US
+1 to Craig on increased militarization ("SWAT") of US police. Now I think the police should have an on-call SWAT capability (most police now keep the gear in the cars of specially trained LEOs) but SWAT is also used too much IMHO, sometimes without proper intel/recon as SWAT has busted into the wrong address.
Also I agree with Craig's point that better armed US citizens requires better armed police but IMO the SWAT gear is used more as a default (like the homeless camper shot in Albuquerque). As Ian states, this is a tiny fraction of all public-police interactions and also looking at Ian's side (plus getting to my original point), the public itself seems to becoming more A-hole as well. However, I'd say it requires faster/more tear gas to break up a mob or a multiple taser strategy first, .. if possible.Apr 2, 2014 at 9:03 am #2088756
I can't cover all of things I've learned in 20+ years in a single thread but here are a couple key points…
I think 99% of the perception that the police are starting to look like the military is due to 1) body armor worn outside of the uniform, 2) carrying long guns, because 3) they are safer overall and the police are dealing with people who are loaded to the teeth with AK47s, ARs, etc.
As I mentioned before, an M4 (.223 or .556) is safer in an urban setting than a 9mm or similar pistol round for a multitude of reasons. I can't say it better than the dozens of sources out there as to why that is. A simple google search should reveal a plethora of information if you want to read more on this.
Secondly, external body armor carriers are more "tacticool" looking than normal police attire when the body armor worn under the shirt. Most police will wear IIIA body armor (under the shirt (sorry still won't call it a blouse)) for patrol which will normally stop pistol rounds. Often times, police will throw extra armor on over their uniform when entering an active shooter situation, serving a warrant, or as the situation dictates. These external carriers often times use a MOLLE system for attaching extra magazines which is the same system used by the military hence the military look.
From my perspective, here’s what I saw in the video and my limited understanding of what happened before it (all from public sources).
1. They negotiated with him for three hours. Video doesn’t show what happened during those three hours.
2. He dropped his bag and had at least one knife in his hand.
3. There was possibly a second knife in the other hand but I couldn’t tell for sure
4. Don’t know why he wasn’t in the prone position on the ground. In three hours of negotiation, I can only assume he was ordered to lay on the ground a few hundred times as that’s pretty basic stuff. Logical assumption is that he was non-compliant with their orders for the three hours.
5. Police presumably formulated a plan to stun him with a flash-bang and then use the K9 to affect (edit effect) the arrest.
6. Flash-bang deployed and there were issues with the K9 and the lead. K9 handler appeared to try to retrieve his dog as they had lost the advantage of surprise to keep his dog from getting stabbed. Natural reaction and I probably would have done the same thing to protect my K9 partner if I was in his shoes.
7. Another officer saw the K9 handler was well within 21’ and the kill radius of a person with a knife. Deadly force was then used.
Was this a great call? No. Of course not. It’s never a good day when someone is shot but the police are not always in control of every situation. Sometimes they can be proactive but often times they are reacting to a bad situation where there is no perfect solution.
I can armchair quarterback it and formulate a better plan but then again, I don’t think that their original plan was all that bad. Unfortunately it didn’t go “as planned” and the result was devastating. I am truly sorry that this gentleman died. I am even sorrier that society allows for the mentally ill to fall through the cracks. It was a bad day for everyone involved.
Edit (affect the arrest) one of those terms I've used for so long and didn't realize I was probably spelling it wrong. Typically use the rule that "affect" is a verb and "effect" is a noun. I guess there are other nuances I was unaware of
3. The occasional need for “effect” as a verb arises when the narrow meaning “to cause or to bring about” is appropriate. These rare occasions often occur in some form of the expression “to effect a change” or, in police jargon, “to effect an arrest” (to cause or make an arrest happen). Nevertheless, it’s still best to avoid, particularly in the last example because it’s simply police jargon, and it's good to avoid jargon.Apr 2, 2014 at 9:41 am #2088769
@retiredjerryLocale: Oregon and Washington
"the public itself seems to becoming more A-hole as well"
since this is chaff : )
It seems like the Republican party in particular uses a number of strategies to get people to vote for them. Obviously, if they were just the party to pass laws to reduce taxes and increase welfare for super wealthy they would never win any elections
One of the strategies is to convince people that the government is incompetent and should be cut. Exhagerate any stories like this where the government screws up. Repeat stories ad nauseum.
Actually, since the government is people, they screw up all the time, just like private companies. We need strong policies to identify and fix problems.
I hate the term "hold someone accountable". Yeah, when someone breaks the law or screws up bad enough they should be prosecuted or fired or whatever, but this is one step away from "when something goes wrong, find a scapegoat". That makes people clam up when there's a problem.
It should be that you find what's wrong with the policies and procedures and fix it. It's okay to make mistakes. If people give up information that shows what's wrong, they shouldn't be fired for screwing up, but rewarded for helping to fix the problem.
The first time the secret service get's caught getting drunk and having prostitutes, it's okay, people screw up sometimes, minor punishment, let everyone know this is unacceptable. The second time – stiffer punishment. If it happens a third time, fire their asses and their supervisors if they're protecting them : )
I'm not blaming everything on the Republicans, but I think it's a factor, and the Democrats do it too, maybe not quite so bad.
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