OookWorks – caution advised

[Mary D]

This is a really good example of why you should always have PayPal charge your credit card, so you are covered beyond the PayPal guarantee period.

Even if the wait has gone beyond PayPal's 45 days, do let them know what is going on! With enough complaints, PayPal will investigate and perhaps take action to suspend his account.

I'm sorry to see "cottage" folks get in this situation. I felt awful about Bender because I had such wonderful customer service from him, and would have ordered a second pad if he hadn't gone belly up. I feel sorry for this guy, too, since he's obviously having problems, but it's obvious that he has gotten in way beyond his ability to cope. The situation will just get worse if it isn't stopped.

[Matthew H]

Agreed. No matter what his condition is, if he's accepting orders it's his responsibility to fill them, or he's no different than any other con man.

[Stuart .]

Sean's website has gone dark. The domain expired last weekend. This also happened a year ago, and he renewed it a few days later. However, given all the bad publicity he's received since, mostly for unfulfilled orders and a lack of communication until legal action is threatened, he may have gone to ground.

http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/gear/oookworks/63458.html

[Randy Cain]

Wow, that's an interesting read that you linked to, Stuart! Looks like things haven't changed a bit in the last year for Sean at Oookworks. As someone on page three of the thread mentioned, it's a wonder anyone orders anything at all from him anymore considering the looooooooong trail of unethical business that has transpired. I used to have some hope that things would turn around for Sean, but the same old crap just seems to continue. It seems like the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off….

[Colm John]

Sean started out with good intentions and excellent products but when his relationship with his life partner irrevocably broke down, his now former life partner, who owned the premises he lived and worked in, required him to leave. Thus he lost his partner, his home, his workshop and his backer in one fell swoop.

He relocated to Scotland but he suffered emotional, not to say mental, and financial difficulties so was never really in a position secure enough to fulfill his obligations to his customers as a manufacturer and supplier of bespoke lightweight backpacking gear.
Although he tried to carry on, he was not being honest with himself or with prospective customers when still advertising what, ultimately, he could not deliver.

I can understand someone who has a bit of a mission to produce some of the best lightweight shelter inners on the market being reluctant to face facts and circumstances when things go South but he is now behaving in a way that he would have condemned someone else for before he got into this business and he would have done so in the most caustic and stridently vocal way. He was never one to hold back if a manufacturer, supplier or private vendor acted this way, not stepping up to the mark in terms of probity.

[Colm John]

"I need to have a brief rant…

I’ve had a couple of fairly pissy emails recently, using terms like “if you have no intention…” and “beyond a joke…”
I can’t deal with it. Simple as that. I am doing my best. I worked a 100 hour week in the run up to the TGOc to avoid letting folk down. I haven’t had anything resembling a break for two years (excluding time off with ill health)

And what do you think it will achieve? Will it make a few more days in the week magically appear?
All that will happen is that you’ll get a refund and no nest, or I’ll feel intimidated and push someone back who’s been waiting patiently. Neither of which are particularly positive outcomes.

So if you feel you can’t wait any longer, for whatever reason, then just send a polite email and ask for your money back. There really is no need to be unpleasant. Unless being unpleasant makes you feel better of course, in which case you can go stick your head in a pig, I’d rather not make you an OookNest."

So there you have the flavor of the man. To buy from him is a privilege and how dare you complain…about anything?

Hubris?

[Randy Cain]

Personally, I'm to the point that I don't want his gear even if he gave it to me for free! All joking aside, I would refuse to use it! This history has gone on far too long, he's abused too many folks, and he's demonstrated bad business ethics over and over and over. There's no end in sight apparently…and now he wants to gripe about how rough the world is on him. He makes the process seem so easy – Just politely ask for a refund and that's that, right? What about all the people who have done just that and got no response? What about all the orders that people have waited on for OVER a year? This is the most insane thing in the outdoor cottage world that I've ever seen. And at this point, Sean really doesn't have anything that you can't get from somewhere else in a fraction of the time with quality that beats or exceeds his! When I order something from MLD or the ZPacks crew, for instance, I know EXACTLY the awesome quality that I'm going to get. I know I'll get it in a reasonable time frame, and I know that if I want to change or cancel my order that I will get a prompt and courteous response…rather than be ignored by Sean and later told some story about how his email was down…bla…bla…bla. And the product is not going to be a strange patchwork like Stuart D received from Sean. The story of Tony Hobbs waiting over a year and a half for a product from Sean was a tipping point for me. Message after message went unanswered. And despite Tony following Sean's simple directions to "Just ask nicely for a refund," Sean walks all over Tony for months, gives him the run-around, gets nasty with him, and really just presented himself like a complete jerk. It was a jaw-dropping drama to watch as it unfolded. And since then, more stories just constantly seem to surface about the same old unethical practices. I used to say that I hope Sean gets his problems ironed out so he can carry on building great stuff…because deep down I was rooting him on. But at this point I want him to close his doors for good and quit abusing customers…because I'm now rooting THEM on!

[Ken Thompson]

Right on Randy +1

Enough already.

[Ross Mellows]

Tony Hobbs has had incredible patience.

A post today on Outdoorsmagic from someone getting no response from a long overdue order. They used another email address & posed as a new customer & allegedly got a response.

I believe he's had a break down & for that he's got my sympathy but you can't carry on doing business like this.

He has a lot of friend on OM who will defend him. Personally I found him snarky & obnoxious on that forum during the good times back before things unravelled & was surprised at the contrast to his Oook persona.

[Mole J]

He has a lot of friend on OM who will
defend him.

---

mmm

I haven't seen any 'friends' defend him there for years if at all. He alienated most there well before he moved in 2012. (me included).

There are some there (just like here) who have professed sympathy for illness, but I suspect they wouldn't consider themselves friends, or that they had defended his actions.

OM has it's issues, but apologia for Seans behaviour demonstrably isn't one of them.
(just read the relavent threads to confirm).

personally, as suggested above, If I was a prominent blogger who'd promoted oookworks, I would add an dayglo warning to all reviews.

[Ross Mellows]

There's some there who'd rather side with him than a 'newbie' coming on to complain/warn about poor service. How dare they! Don't they know there are clique protocols to follow! Even insinuations just a few months back that's some disgruntled customers may be setting up multiple forum accounts to bitch.

I'm referring to posts in one of the threads from May this year but fair enough – maybe less so recently as it gets harder to defend.

[Colm John]

As far as I can see there are several on OM who won't comment (friends of Sean?) and one who fully backs him and hints at newbies with multiple accounts or people opening accounts specifically to "hound" Clayton. This defender bears the name of an insect pest and, I would venture, should not be taken too seriously.
After all, to advance a conspiracy theory there are holders of multiple accounts, on no evidence at all, is plain crazy. Then to say that no-one should join a forum to complain about one of its members/former members not meeting his contractual obligations, not supplying bespoke gear that he has been paid for, is just juvenile. One of the reasons for the existence of such forums is to highlight such atrocious service.

[Mole J]

Some of the recent posts make OM seem full of advocates of Sean's poor behaviour? Maybe as a regular OMer, I'm being defensive, but it seems a little unfair to talk of 'siding with him',cliques and advocates? OM is a forum made of 100's (1000's?)of members. No different from here.

______________________________________________________________________________________

"As far as I can see there are several on OM who won't comment (friends of Sean?) and one who fully backs him and hints at newbies with multiple accounts or people opening accounts specifically to "hound" Clayton. He bears the name of an insect pest and, I believe, is not to be taken too seriously. "
_________________________________________________________________________________

Ah. I see.

We have different interpretations. I recall a couple of OM folk spikily (and wrongly IMO) calling new posters credentials/motives into question. I called the most recent (Insect Name – several months ago) one out on it, and IIRC he backed off, and justified his posts as an expression of concern that Sean was being hounded. I think he, and the previous others (at their time of posting) were just out of touch with the continual poor dealings that were being reported.

No other 'advocates' I've seen.

It appears Colm, you are holding opinions/making presumptions about about certain OM members by making talking about 'several who won't comment'.

An strange statement to make IMO. And why make it here rather than on the relevant OM thread(s)? Odd.

If were are several 'friends' on OM(current/ex, real/virtual or imagined!), they may be 'silent' on OM for many reasons. e.g. No1: Why on earth should they comment? Are any that much involved with him such that it is really their business? What do you want – mass public denunciations by everyone who has ever met the man or even shared a forum thread with him? Wow.

Maybe if it bothers folk that much, don't waste your energy casting allusions on unspecified advocates, but lobby the influential Oook promoters to edit their previous recommendations? Or even lobby Sean himself?

Here's a comment – to forestall accusations of advocacy and being a non commenting friend ;) – I deplore Sean's/Oookworks behaviour and have had zero communication with him since early 2012 (before things 'went bad')

___________________________________________________________________________
…at this point I want him to close his doors for good and quit abusing customers…because I'm now rooting THEM on!
____
+1 (just like any other fair-minded individual)

[Colm John]

Sorry, Mole,
I was just summarizing what I have read on my visit to Outdoors Magic. Maybe I could have said that some people actually are taking the time to check in to say they do not want to comment which is, in and of itself, actually a comment, in my opinion.
I took it from the fact they would even bother to do such a thing that they are friends, supporters of or sympathetic to the owner of Ookworks. I guess that was kind of presumptuous of me and then there were the guys who pointed out he was sick and who did not say but kind of implied he should be given a break.
I did not come across any retraction or change of opinion of the insect guy. I admit that I did not pay due attention to the timeline of comments as robustly as maybe I should have so I guess my research is imperfect and I will have to fix that. It still remains that we are talking about a guy who is not firing on all chambers.
This all interests me why? I have been burned in the past by someone, who was a friend from way back, in the exact same way. I lost a lot of dollars and I lost a buddy of more than a decade.
I still do not think I am too many shots wide of the target, this all is kind of familiar to me.

From the tone of your response it kind of looks like you think I am attacking outdoors magic or its members. That is not my intention. Really it is not. I regret that you seem to think that is the case.

[Colm John]

I guess I will be butting out of this conversation and maybe leave it to those guys who have a financial interest in this matter. It looks like I have put a bug up the asses of our English friends, or one of them, anyways. I did not mean to do that, either.

[Ozzy McKinney]

I have nothing to add to the discussion about this guy, but lets be civil here- it's "Going ON a bender", not "did a bender". That sounds like an inside joke from Futurama. Respect the bender, please.

[Stuart .]

Actually, Ozzy, the grammar was correct in reference to Bender. He was a cottage manufacturer who made down-filled sleeping pads among other items. All went well for a while, but a few years ago he stopped supplying product for orders he'd accepted and received payment. He finally stopped fulfilling any orders and disappeared. Based on the feedback from several customers in the last two years, Sean Clayton at OookWorks has "done a Bender". The only difference is that Sean is still taking people's money.

[Ozzy McKinney]

well, I'm ok with it now. The Bender is a long-standing institution among my people, and I tend to get a little defensive. I apologize.

[Stuart .]

As is the Blender among my people (j/k). No worries, Ozzy. This thread only exists to warn prospective new customers that Sean's ability to procure from suppliers and fulfill customer orders is apparently on par with GoLite.

[Heather Carter]

Hi everyone –

It's been quite awhile since I last posted. I wanted to let you know – a bit late – that I received my bathtub almost two weeks after initially posting my complaint. I still stand by my words though. And even though I have a great product in my hands (a bit too late as I ordered something else from someone else to replace it) with great workmanship – I will not order from Oookworks (effectively Sean) again.

Also, I have a Oookworks green bathtub for sale. $120, you'll get it within 5 days of payment(in the US)! I have never posted anything for sale on here before, how does one go about it?

[David Thomas]

>"I have never posted anything for sale on here before, how does one go about it?"

Heather:

Create a thread in "Gear Swap" and title it, "FS – Oookworks green bathtub" and in the thread, describe its condition, weight, and maybe include a link to any website with picture, specs or a review of it. If you can't find that, probably helpful to post a picture of yours and certainly if your item isn't in like-new condition, post close-up photos of any defects or wear&tear to keep everyone informed about what they're buying.

Most people use Paypal to send money and many sellers don't like losing 3% to Paypal for the guarantee (to the buyer) of being able to recover from Paypal in the event of fraud so they request people trust them, send them money without having received the merchandise, or add 3% to the price. A bit high and mighty, IMO ("trust me, but I won't trust you'), but, again, common practice here. Be clear who pays shipping (e.g. "$120 includes shipping by Priority Mail to the USA"). UPS will cost you a lot more to ship to AK or HI (because there's no surface option), but Priority Mail is the same price for small parcels to any of the 50 states. A surprising number of things ship just fine in an envelope, padded envelope, or in a plastic bag (how LL Bean and Old Navy ship their clothing orders). I save a few of those and use them for returns, shipping to friends, etc.

Edited to say: just noticed your FS posting. Looks good. Add how you want to be paid and how you will ship it.

[Graham T]

The answer to all of this is don’t buy of Sean, the story is all too familiar, his breakdowns seem to occur  to a certain pattern, I suspected he had cash flow problems so bought a stock item bath tub that I really didn’t need to help, more than a bit annoyed to find that orders taken after mine had been fulfilled.  Finally got my order fulfilled after a few “exchanges” and an awful long time.

1. Must say the response from MLD and Z packs is pretty good in comparison

[Stuart .]

The other day I was PM’d by another member who was asking about my experiences with Oookworks. I’ve had no interactions with Sean for over three years now, so I have nothing to add on the topic of how that transaction worked out. But I thought I would check the UK forums to see if he’s making any headway on his ginormous order backlog. No updates on outdoorsmagic.com. Recent posts on trek-lite.com suggest that he’s reasonably prompt on bathtub floors, but if you want a bivy or an inner, you’ll be waiting a while. In one recent case, 28 months for a Duomid inner. Material supply delays were reported a few times, probably exacerbated even further by DSM Dyneema’s acquisition of cuben fibre. My advice hasn’t changed. As I said on the opening post, be careful and do your due diligence before placing an order.

[Robert P]

So just an update based on my recent experinece.

I know and can see from the posts that some have had a less than good experience with Oookworks however I can safely say he is now back and working very well.

I was extremely sceptical about ordering anything from Sean having e-mailed him in 2014 with no responses. In January this year I spotted his website had been updated so dropped him a line and he responded immediately. I played safe initially and ordered a Trailstar door which I knew he did and it came in 8 days!

So I took the plunge and after lots of discussion via e-mail ordered a 2Oookworks inner for my TS on the 19th February 2016. It arrived, as promised, on the 18th March 2016. The kit itself is superb having fully tested it on a 4 day backpack across Scotland just a week later. Although his workmanship has never really been in doubt.

I did raise my concerns with Sean prior to the order and he was great, happy to discuss the issues and explained his plan going forward. Essentially taking 6 new orders a month and also completing 6 delayed orders a month. The new orders ensures he has cash flow and the ability to buy materials  to not only complete those but the backlog.

It must be incredibly frustrating for people who are still waiting or have given up completely. However, I do hope Sean is able to go from strength to strength from here.

 

[Peter S]

Robert, thank you for reporting your experience. I find it helpful. How can anyone find it not helpful? What’s wrong with you people??

[Author]

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