Help Me Get Better @ Site Selection

[Delmar O’Donnell]

Taking stock of my skills, at this time I'm most critical of my ability to select a good camp site. I think I missed class on the day site selection was discussed, and would like to learn from those with more experience. What do you look for when selecting a place to sleep? (I use a solo tent, a Hubba, so I'm most interested in tent-site-selection, but I'm sure tarp-site-selection would be interesting also.)

Here's basically all I know at this point:
– Don't select top of ridge, due to wind and possibly lightning.
– Don't select hollows or low areas, as they'll be cooler.
– Don't camp in dry creek beds, due to flash flood.
– Don't camp under dead wood, which might fall on you.
– Find a site with good drainage, preferably a little taller than the surrounding area.
– Don't sleep on a slope that's left-right, as you'll struggle to stay on the mat.
– Try to find soft duff to camp on. (Ha! Virtually impossible in desert camping.)
I add to this:
– Sleep on a slight slope (because I just sleep better if my head is elevated above my feet).

Despite following these rules (as I can), and sometimes hunting for a good site for up to 45 minutes (sometimes, as night is falling!! Ugh.), I often wake up thinking: "I could have picked a better site," for various reasons. So my question is wide open: What does one look for, in site selection? What are the mistakes that noobs make, to avoid?

[Marko Botsaris]

Wow, when you put them all together like that it seems hopeless! Probably you want to put at the end. with a bullet, "don't take things too seriously – if you can lie down and are reasonably comfortable, you are good to go".

Also you left out, "should have a beautiful view". :-)

One tip I got somewhere in the way back is that the #1 place where you will experience discomfort is your hip (especially if you are old-school UL with a thin pad). To the extent you can control this find (if on rock) or make a small concavity where you hip will be. If you can sleep comfortably you are %99 of the way there. What amounts to "comfort" will be unique to you, however.

One last thought though, if you are searching after the sun goes down that might be the source of some of your problems right there. If in a troublesome place like dense east coast forest maybe start looking AS you hike with plenty of daylight left as oppose to choosing a specific area and combing for a good spot.

[Dena Kelley]

Also- if you camp near water, you will have additional condensation in your tent. That's a trade off. Nice to have water near to camp, and sometimes there are better views and wildlife sightings. And- don't camp on game trails.

I hear ya, though. Finding a nice, flat spot with suitable drainage and wind protection can be hard. I often camp above treeline (which, in my area, isn't very high up- maybe 3500'-4000'?) so I don't have to contend with trees. If I'm in a valley, I'll seek out a "shelf" somewhere above the valley floor but not so high up that it's going to be prone to high wind. Our land here is often really uneven, so finding a flat spot can be really tough sometimes.

[robert van putten]

I dunno, it sounds to me like you got it just about covered!

'Bout the only thing I might add is I sometimes pay attention to how the morning light will hit the site. If I'm gonna sleep in I want shade. If I want to get up early or I expect frost or heavy dew, I like early sun.

I also pay a little attention to exposure and wind direction, because I use a much breezier tarp tent than what you got. What I think the weather will be doing determines how much effort I put into this.

In fact, my estimation of the weather determines just about everything – Who cares about drainage if there is a zero chance of rain, and so forth.

Do you lay down on the ground to "test drive" the site before you pitch the tent?
Kinda hard in wet conditions, but if you use a ground cloth under the tent you can lie down on that.
I find I do this just about every time I select a spot without fail!
It is perhaps the most important to me, especially when sleeping on just 36" thin foam pad. Camping with my wife we use full length thermarest pads, but it is still important to find just the right spot.

Heh, just keep backpacking! The more sites you pick the better you get at it, like anything else.

I even do this when day hiking or even just walking around my 40 acres, and think " Hey, I could put a tent right there!" Everywhere I go, part of my mind scans for spots is seems!

[Dena Kelley]

"I even do this when day hiking or even just walking around my 40 acres, and think " Hey, I could put a tent right there!" Everywhere I go, part of my mind scans for spots is seems!"
====
I do this exact same thing. I find when I'm hiking that I often look at a spot and think, "that'd be a good bivouac spot"…"that tree would make a good emergency shelter"…"that spot would be an awesome place to camp".

[jscott]

Drainage is not always obvious before it begins raining. For example, the trail itself can become a small creek which then overflows during heavy rains–perhaps right into your tent! Or a creek upstream of the trail will overflow into the trail with the same result. Or water will begin cascading down walls in unexpected ways…etc.

It's amazing, given the miles of open surround in the wilderness, how hard it is sometimes to find a small patch of ground to lie down on.

[Delmar O’Donnell]

This is helpful, thanks. Couple comments:

>If I'm in a valley, I'll seek out a "shelf" somewhere above the valley floor but not so high up that it's going to be prone to high wind.

Ya, see, this is what I'm looking for, and don't find. I think this shelf may be mythical.

> Also you left out, "should have a beautiful view". :-)

…which, I've determined, means "big wind" at night. I've actually stopped looking for high scenic panoramas and go for nooks now. But I take your point. There are beautiful views that are not high windy panoramas.

> if you are searching after the sun goes down that might be the source of some of your problems right there

Agree 110%.

> Do you lay down on the ground to "test drive" the site before you pitch the tent?

Started to, and boy does that help. Previously "by eye" alone; now I lie down.

One of the things that motivated me to buy a "heavy" Hubba at 3 lb was how easy it was to relocate, being freestanding. And it seems I'm dicking around with the perfect placement, moving a few inches left and right, rotating slightly, a little more up or down the hill, for at least 15 minutes each time. Yes, I'm being fussy, but I am looking for the orientation where I won't be rolling off my pad. That's a problem that doesn't seem to show up for the first couple of hours of sleeping, and then for the rest of the night I'm extracting myself from a fold on the downside of the tent.

My hypothesis is that gravity gets more intense as the night wears on, becoming its most extreme around 3-4 am when I am the groggiest.

> Everywhere I go, part of my mind scans for spots is seems!

OK, this is good homework for me. I will start doing this.

[D S]

I don't exactly agree with dismissing the top of ridges per se. There are situations where I want all the breeze I can get. If there is not High Wind or Thunderstorms in the forecast, I'll take a ridge top to get some breeze and a view vs hot, muggy, and skeeters.

[Bob Gross]

I don't know about the areas where you operate, but I find myself at some backcountry lakes of Yosemite quite often. Too many beginners will try to camp within 200 feet of the lake shore so that they have a quick source of water. However, the mosquitos will be at maximum there for certain times of the season. Instead, I will camp someplace a hundred vertical feet above the lake level, and the flying population will be much less worrisome.

Obviously you are not going to camp right on a trail, but it is good to be far enough from the trail that you can find your tent, but anybody else on the trail will miss it.

If you start to pick a tent spot and you see a lot of shredded cords hanging from tree branches, that is a bad sign. It generally means that lots of people have camped there before you. Either they threw bear lines up into the branches and got them caught, or else the bears knew where to look for camps and they climbed up the trees to shred the lines and snatch the goodies.

Also, I try not to camp in the median strip of an interstate highway. It's too noisy.

–B.G.–

[Dena Kelley]

"Ya, see, this is what I'm looking for, and don't find. I think this shelf may be mythical."
==

I will agree they are harder to find than a flat spot at the bottom of the valley. I've found 'em, but it's more common for the valley walls to be nothing but steep and have to camp at the bottom by the creek anyway.

[John Myers]

Delmar,
Sounds like you know exactly what you're looking for.

The challenge is to find the right site at the right time.

Sometimes that's just either/or. Spot a great site but not ready to set up camp yet, or keep hiking until almost dark and not be able to find one.

That's one of the reasons I prefer a hammock. When hiking in wooded areas it's a lot easier to find 2 trees the right distance apart than finding a level spot for a tent. :)

[Thomas Rayl]

Are there (reliably) trees where you camp? Have you considered a hammock? (Hennessey's are awesome!) If that route works for you, it can eliminate many concerns about drainage, slope, rocks & roots, etc. You also won't need a pad for ground cushioning (might need under-insulation, though). Just an alternative…

[Delmar O’Donnell]

> Are there (reliably) trees where you camp?

No, lots of desert between So Calif and Arizona, which is my main playground. My big concerns are (usually, not always) where are the least pointy rocks on a reasonably level surface. I will admit I'm extremely fond of a very small/narrow footprint tent. If I doubled the size of the tent I'd double my troubles finding good pitch locations.

Someday I will live near trees and then it will be time to learn hammock.

[MFR]

Sounds to me like you need exactly what I need–practice. You clearly know what you can learn online. I'd say just keep at it and be a bit more intentional.

Pretty soon it'll just be intuitive.

[peter vacco]

– Don't select top of ridge, due to wind and possibly lightning.

unless it's going to get ugly, ohh goodness .. go for the views.

– Don't select hollows or low areas, as they'll be cooler.

but sometimes a gravel bar is the best place in the world. any gravel bar worth it's salt is going to be on the river.

– Don't camp in dry creek beds, due to flash flood.

forget not the slush flows that storm down springtime gullies if in alaska.
and Do consider the benefits of using the tundra bench above many northern rivers rather than the gravel bed.

– Don't camp under dead wood, which might fall on you.

pish tosh.

– Find a site with good drainage, preferably a little taller than the surrounding area.

well.. ya.

– Don't sleep on a slope that's left-right, as you'll struggle to stay on the mat.
– Try to find soft duff to camp on. (Ha! Virtually impossible in desert camping.)
I add to this:

peter's mantra …
if you can't sleep on a short 1" pad .. walk farther.

– Sleep on a slight slope (because I just sleep better if my head is elevated above my feet).

this goes away if you give it a helping hand.

peter falls FIRMLY in the camp of morning sun. that is key beyond any status of gradient and turf configuration. morning sun can make literally hours of difference in start time ( = miles).

Delmar is going to be fine. do not forget that any campsite is vastly improved if you have something to drink.

cheers,
v.

[Delmar O’Donnell]

> but sometimes a gravel bar is the best place in the world. any gravel bar worth it's salt is going to be on the river.

Please elaborate on this?

[Nick Gatel]

I think this is a good subject. All of us are going to have differing opinions and no one is right.

First, there are a few considerations

(1) Is it a hike, sleep, hike endeavor? If so, you just deal with where you end up — so to speak.

(2) Is there a specific destination? If so, you again just deal with where you end up — so to speak.

(3) Are you flexible to where you end your day or even willing to hike a ways from your route? This is often the best if you seek a view. Views are good, but you can't see them when you're sleeping.

Ridges and peaks are often great places. Decades ago one could camp on the peak of San Jacinto (with a permit). Awesome. Unless the weather was bad. I did this a lot.

The above site was great on a ridge with this view on the other side of the ridge (see below).

As noted, I like early morning sun too. But sometimes you can't get to the sunny side of a mountain or hill. And sometimes a river bed is great, just ignore the moisture. Below the sunny area was a cliff on the other side of the river. Prime consideration for this particular site was no neighbors. It was December and temps got down below freezing.

Desert washes are great if it doesn't rain within 100 miles…

On the other hand, washes with rain in the forecast can be difficult. On this trip I walked for 45 minutes trying to find a level spot above the wash that was level and not all boulders because I knew it was going to rain during the night…

Sand can make the best beds as long as you keep the sand out of your gear and food. Plus you can dig out a little depression for your hips…

When ever possible I try to sleep without a shelter. This requires the least amount of real estate. I am a side sleeper. But I find that if I start out on my back and watch the night sky I fall asleep the easiest. I know I will eventually end up on my side. I know some people really prefer a shelter. But experiment. It can open up many, many more options.

Often in wind, I will forgo a shelter. On this trip there were 5 of us. Wind gusts around 50 mph and flattened these two UL tents. Two guys had tarps which pretty much stayed in place with some nighttime adjustments.

I was fine without a shelter, other than trying to find (successfully) several pieces of gear that blew away during the night…

Sometimes finding a small piece of real estate that is flat and void of rocks and plants can be daunting. Below I had to walk 1/2 mile from where I wanted to camp and even the poncho/tarp had to be pitched over rocks and plants. Good thing I didn't bring a tent, I would still be looking for a good site…

You need to consider the soil and how much it might rain. Below is a playa, which is an indentation on a flat plain. I had to make sure the soil was real dry and could absorb some rain — otherwise I would have awaken in a small lake. I did move to the upper edge of the playa…

Sometimes what looks sloped, really isn't if you lay down and find a level place. Dead wood be damned, when wind is not in the forecast (not recommended)…

And then there are the times you must stealth camp, where the regulations are too difficult and vague to figure out, especially when two government officials gave you two different answers over the phone. You think you are okay, but not 100% sure you understand all the rules. In this case you crash through brush until you find an open clearing, which almost always means there is no water nearby and you might have a bed of rocks and debris under you…

Then there is the theory of using landmarks to shield you from high winds. Doesn't always work, so you (hopefully) brought a shelter that can withstand 70 mph gusts…

So…

1. Level site.

2. Morning sun.

3. View if possible — but I am sleeping so it isn't that critical. It does make camp chores around the campsite at night and in the morning more enjoyable.

Everything else is secondary unless weather conditions create a potential hazard. Hopefully, if I need a shelter, I brought the right one. But a shelter can limit my possible sites.

If skeeters might be a problem, I go up higher away from water, especially standing water. This usually isn't much of a problem because kids, dogs, adults, and skeeters generally don't like me.

A great site will have a rock to use as a back rest so you can cook dinner at night and sit in your sleeping bag to watch the stars, and then in the morning warm up catching the early morning sun while in your bag and cooking breakfast. The site below is what I seek whenever possible.

One last thing. If I can put my hips in a depression with my feet AND my head slightly elevated I sleep the best and my legs recover a lot quicker if it has been a strenuous day. Sometimes I put my pack under my feet so they are slightly elevated.

To be honest, I really don't give site selection that much thought. I just plop down when I am ready to stop most of the time. If there is a big rain coming, then I pay attention to drainage.

[Paul McLaughlin]

Don't know if this can be applied where you wander, but in the Sierra I often camp on nice granite slabs, for a variety of reasons. Good pad is essential to this idea. You get a nice clean campsite, the rock holds heat from the day and is thus warmer to sleep on; tends to be drier also, never have had any moisture on the underside of my groundsheet on a slab; midnight forays to answer the call do not result in pine needle perforations or dirty socks; and last but not least, minimal impact on the site.

[Delmar O’Donnell]

Excellent post, Nicky G! Very informative, and loved the photos of course. Think i'll be doing better from here out. Have a better idea now what to look for.

PS… Still puzzled about sand bars. I'd thought that the sand around a creek or river bed was strictly verboten, but some posters are hinting that sand bars are great.

[Jerry Adams]

Yeah, good post Nick

I like to have rock "tables" to put stuff on

If it's windy, sand and dust can blow onto everything. Sometimes, brush will provide some protection. Sometimes I'll place some branches next to me to block the blowing sand.

A couple times I've camped on a flat area, then it rained and it turned into a puddle. You can see patterns of needles and leaves that show the perimiter of the puddle and avoid that.

Desert has a certain beauty. Trees and brush block the views and make it difficult to walk cross country. Eastern Oregon and Washington has a lot of desert, but the Mojave area is more wide open. Too bad it's so far away.

[Rick Reno]

Love the U/L Kelty pack and Svea stove…
Ahhh… The good old days!

[Dena Kelley]

"PS… Still puzzled about sand bars. I'd thought that the sand around a creek or river bed was strictly verboten, but some posters are hinting that sand bars are great."
===
It probably depends on where they live. In Alaska, sandbars are generally quite a safe place to camp. We rarely have flash floods. In spring, when the ice breaks, it'll flood. I don't know that we ever get flash floods just from rain, though. I've never heard of such a thing. Rivers up here tend to go down at night (due to many of our rivers being glacier fed, and the glaciers melt less at night when it's cooler).

I, too, really enjoyed Nick G's write up with photos. Nice!

[Marko Botsaris]

Great post nick.

@Delmar, yeah, if you are in the Mojave/Arizona/Utah then wind is probably going to the biggest problem. Sometimes it is insane in the morning and afternoon from the temperature gradients. Sometimes is is pretty insane all night as well. In those places, and in most places, your list of criteria can be cut down depending on the time of year and weather. So for example in the desert you may be looking for some place where you can get some windbreak, even if it is just a creosote bush (ideally sans pack-rat nest), and then someplace safe and comfortable to lie down. If it is hot where you are then you will not care so much about declivities – dry, not necessary to worry about condensation. And so on. I'd say %90 of the time if comes down to the number 1 issue at the time, and not on trying to optimize them all at once. And sometimes the #1 is "I really want to stop NOW". :-)

[Ken Thompson]

Delmar. In some places a gravel bar may be the only piece of open flat land to pitch on. Conveniently near water, and provides good visibility if any large carnivores are around. And if pack rafting say, the access is pretty hard to beat as well. No bank to climb up. Plenty safe enough if you have favorable weather. Leave No Trace want you to camp 200 feet from water. If you look at trip reports you see that this "rule" is often ignored for a variety of reasons.

[peter vacco]

" > but sometimes a gravel bar is the best place in the world. any gravel bar worth it's salt is going to be on the river.

Please elaborate on this? "

well there's your common everyday gravel bars, and then there's awesome totally bitch'n gravel bars.
you see, gravel bars sometimes have sand, and that's not optimal. or, they have caca wood, and nobody wants to wander overmuch for cook'n sticks. or the rocks are too big to sleep on. the list goes on.
but occasionally, if you want one bad enough, you can create be "shear force of will" a decent place to camp. you don't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need. (somebody should be writing this down .. )

so when you drop down off a bluff to the river after a long day with 2 rain squalls, and find an island close enough to shore to wade over to, you might wander up/down the length of it looking for the more optimal spot.
morning sun, nice wood, willows to hang the wash on, not sand, not boulders, rocks to anchor the tent lines, and as was pointed out quite correctly a few posts ago, a Pack Rock. one rather wants, nay .. Needs a Pack Rock.

and there you will be on a gravel bar. tent up, a cheery fire down by the water to make for warm comfy bathing, laundry hanging hopefully (it never dries much at night) on the willows, and boiled water for dinner's repast. ohhhh goodness, how can we not love gravel bars.

then in the morning the sun will break clean and warm thru the overcast (since were on My gravel bar, and it's my story, that's how Mr. Sun comes out today). i go down the the water line to fill the pot, right past the grizzly tracks that were not there last night, and, as i make hot coffee the clothes sort of dry, and because it's an early start, as the yellow alpacka drifts out and is taken by the current, the mists swirl about us. each bit of dust silently alights on mirror flat water. ever slow slowly the birds begin their morning chatter as the ground fog gently lifts in patches, and then nothings. Mr. Sun pumps energy into the day, and the air moves, slowly at first, then a soft breeze .. only a draft.. a zepher, at first (and later, quite annoying) , and then we are into our day.

gravel bars rock. you just have to go far enough north to get to the real ones.

v.

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