Updated SUL Clothing 40F

[Tad Englund]

+1 Nick "This is ***-backwards"

Jeremy, please read Nick’s post again and then read his link. They may make the remarks below better understood.

Maybe your confidence comes from knowing the amount of time you will be out or your ability to bail.
I have been on trips where the weather was perfect and the low was around 60*. I didn't even carry a shelter or insulation because I knew that if things turned south I could bail and walk out during the night if I had to.
I'm a little older now (not necessarily wiser) and maybe lazy, but I don't like to be uncomfortable or I don't like the idea of having to bail. So now I carry the minimums (insulation) as described above by the other posters. Like Nick my base weigh could be 5 lbs or 10 lbs. either way it is what I think I need at that given moment (you can call it XUL or whatever title you give it, it for me is right for the given situation).

[John S.]

"This is ass-backwards; to make the required clothing system fit into an arbitrary weight."

Welcome to ultralight backpacking.

[Jeremy Rardin]

Yes I think some things are being assumed that may not be true. For me this is a preliminary list. If the forecast called for consistent rain/overcast I would bring additional rain gear. SUL for me is fast packing, not meeting an "arbitrary" weight. Also, those who say that the weight is arbitrary I think you are mistaken. Of course one should carry what it takes to be prepared no matter,the weight. Weight classifications are not arbitrary because they generally do communicate ones experience. We could say that a medical degree us arbitrary because it is the KNOWLEDGE and EXPERIENCE that matter, but the degree is a universally recognizable certification, as are weight classifications like UL, SUL, XUL, and SXUL. I also want to push back against what you are saying about 24 hour weather change. Of course it happens and exit strategy is important. I know my area and my weather, if the weather calls for 55 lows all of you would take a 40F bag/quilt. You don't take a 30 or 20 just because weather CAN change. I do appreciate pointing out cold rain hiking, I spent alot of time looking at sheets , which was a bit disconnected from reality. BUT people still carry down don't they? If the weather says little to no rain, of course it could change? But that is where skill, margins, and bailout are important. I myself have pushed myself near hypothermia in 40F weather and learned a lesson but I hike to push myself. You want to carry all synthetic in case of rain? Hike your own hike man I'm not going to stop you. I like to push it to 30 miles a day eat then sleep. So I genuinely appreciate the comments and I have altered my list a bit, but the condescending language from a few should be checked and edited.

for those of you reading this for the gear list I have changed my setup to be a marmot half zip reactor and a 15d nylon windshirt for top insulation. 12 ounce combo plus beanie/socks/mittens is around 15 oz

[Ben C]

I agree with you that something a little fleecy would be a welcome addition if its 40 degrees and raining. And then you can probably drop the silks. I think the Cap4/T2 would suffice in the temperature range you are looking at also and be a little lighter.

I think its a great to push the limits of your gear if your willing to have a little discomfort, especially if you're doing long mile days. With that fleece, you have plenty to keep warm in 40 degree windy rain. And it sounds like you won't be spending much time in camp to need a lot of camp clothes. If its really cold, get in your down bag. I encourage your SUL quest.

I know your area well enough to know that there are always bail out routes. You're never too far from a road.

I think Nick has a good point on something to belt your cape in for wind. I use a cuben skirt too and have found it very helpful. You may not need it if that cape goes low though.

I haven't used a Gatewood Cape, but I can see that putting it up in the rain might be your toughest part. I like the idea of using a groundsheet to keep you dry, but I think you're still going to get wet somewhat. Hopefully the dwr on your windshirt will help you out enough.

[Tad Englund]

Jeremy, hopefully you don't mistake my post as condescending, if so that was not the intent. I appreciate your aggressiveness towards your kit and working to lower your weight. But you might want to calm down a little. No one is telling you, you have to do it this or that way. They are giving you real live experiences of what has happened, when they tried the very same thing you are doing. I think they are saying “keep trying, but this is what happened to my when I tried what you are doing”.

Your original post did set an arbitrary number for the clothing weight (a foreign concept to some of our thought processes). I use to try and get everything’s weight as low as it could go, there was no set number. In fact, when someone tried to put the LW, UL, SUL, XSUL numbers out there regardless if I agreed with them, I still tried to get lower then what “they” set. If someone set a number I tried to beat it. There is always something out there that is lighter. You should have seen the spreadsheets adjust when Cuben came on the scene.

As I said in my post, things have changed and now I am comfortable both physically and mentally with where my kit is now (thought it does constantly change).

Keep pushing the envelope; we need some younger guys to keep everything evolving so I can reap the benefits of their successes.

[Jeremy Rardin]

No its quite alright, I just noticed that the general attitude of the forum was going towards the negative despite a few and I wanted to reestablish my intentions for finding a clothing list that would meet my needs. And honestly, in conversation with others, I have expressed that after a season of SUL I will likely level back out around 7 or 8 with full comforts and a light pack. But for this season I want to push myself and ride along that line.

[Marko Botsaris]

Nick, nice post and great blog post. I've always thought you were rocking a kinda Colin Fletcher vibe/look in some of the pictures on your blog (might be the beard) – now I can see that the resemblance and talent extend into your writing as well.

I've also always really liked the look and layout of your blog.

cheers.

[Dale Wambaugh]

We were walking in 40f weather last weekend. A cap , light gloves, long sleeve Cap3-ish base layer, windshirt and light softshell pants were perfect while walking uphill. I added an R1 vest for the downhill part.

It's interesting to think about SUL in terms of clothing. It's not too difficult to keep things very light for a trip in the middle of the summer, but 40f is a practical bottom limit.

It's pretty easy to get SUL until you get to clothing: a tarp shelter, Spartan CCF pad, a quilt and a minimalist kitchen, chemical water treatment, and a pack to match. But clothing can be a whole list in itself and more items mean weight. The only thing that changes from mid-summer to shoulder seasons is extra or thicker layers and that magic 5 lb base weight slips out of my grasp.

I carry a light beanie and liner type gloves, one spare set of socks and then comes the debate on mid-layer and puffy insulation. I like vests whenever practical, giving core warmth, low packing bulk and easy arm movement. A long sleeve base layer goes with that and a windshirt in cool weather.

As much as I don't like down insulation, it is the only way I can see to keep the weight in line for SUL. A vest may allow more core loft vs a thinner jacket, assuming that you are wearing a heavier base layer and a windshirt. I definitely recommend a windshirt for use with a poncho or cape.

[Justin Baker]

Good post Dale.

We all need to remind ourselves that we are tropical animals.

[Jeremy Rardin]

Dale-
I have to agree. I am going to test out my Marmot Reactor and Windshirt Combo and bring a backup insulation layer of the next month to see how it feels. It might be how hard I am walking but the last time I went on a day trip when it was at 32 F I was just in my wicked lite and a windshirt. If it does not quite get me where I want in terms of comfort I could supplement with the MEC T2 hoodie and a Borah vest, which would be about the same weight as my Marmot Reactor but give me more versatility. The only thing keeping me from doing that now is money lol.

Clothing does add up quickly, and it can be tough to get it just where you want it in terms of versatility, comfort, and weight.

[Jeremy Rardin]

What is your favorite 40F clothing?

[Ryan Smith]

Everyone is different, but my 40F set up looks like this:

While hiking: Wool T-shirt, 2oz Luke's UL hooded wind shirt, MHW Mesa hiking pants.
At camp: Wool T-shirt, 7-8oz Montbell UL Down jacket, 2oz Luke's UL hooded wind shirt, MHW Mesa hiking pants.

No beanie, gloves, etc. This doesn't change when 40F and rainy except for added rain protection. I would take a 1oz poncho for those times when you need to setup the Gatewood and it's pouring. The loss of loft in down garments in 1-2 days of rain hasn't made much difference in MY warmth. For others it sounds like the kiss of death. YMMV. A synthetic puffy will only add another 3-4 oz to that if you are worried about it. Worse case, just get in your sleeping bag. Problem solved.

You and I hike the exact same trails. Our weather rarely has wild swings although it can happen. Have a contingency plan – If it drops to 25F instead of 40F, what will I do? Hike out? Wear all of my clothes to bed? Use my raingear as a VBL?

Ryan

[Jamie Shortt]

Jeremy, Here is my basic 40+ degree clothing system.
Worn:
BPL SS Merino Wool T-shirt (medium)4.050z
BPL Merino Wool Shorts (medium)3.70oz
REI Sahara Convertible Pants (medium) 12.40oz
Smart Wool PHD Mini Crew 2.35oz
Columbia Booney Hat 2.75oz
Worn total: 25.25 oz

Packed:
Rab Pulse Jacket (medium) 7.30oz
LytW8 Cuben Rain Wrap 1.25oz
LytW8 M50 Down Pullover 5.10oz
Blackrock Hadron Down Cap 0.60oz
Smart Wool PHD Mini Crew 2.35oz
Carried Total: 16.60oz

I tweak it a bit depending on what conditions I expect and how unpredictable I think the weather will be, but it does not stray far from this. For example if the weather is more like 55+ I will drop the cap, down pullover, and replace pant with shorts. If the weather is 30+ and maybe rain I will add some fleece gloves and possibly replace the rain skirt with golite reed pants. Overall the above list has proven to meet my needs time and time again.

Jamie

[Jeremy Rardin]

Ryan and Jamie

It seems that neither of you carry a fleece/synthetic midlayer. It could be because we are all local to the South Eastern region of United States, but it seems we have different expectations for weather. I will definitely consider something a little extra for setting up my gatewood or when I have to pee haha.

My original plan for packed was Montbell Ex Light or Borah Down vest and my windshirt.

Jamie- I have to say after out last interaction on a thread I spent a couple days reviewing your gear lists. I like you way you have everything setup. I also admire how much gear you make yourself, I wish I was more skilled with DIY.

How well does your cuben catenary tarp hold up in heavy wind and rain for you?
You hike for yourself and make your own gear, but is there any way I could pay you to make something for me?

[Ryan Smith]

Jeremy,

Right. I don't bring a fleece until I expect around 25-30F temps. In theory, I could go slightly lighter by replacing the fleece+puffy combo with a warmer down jacket. However, I like the versatility of the fleece, plus it gives me a little fudge factor since is still pretty warm if wet.

There are many ways to skin a cat.

Ryan

[ROBERT TANGEN]

Oddly enough, just a few minutes ago I came in from a city walk with the temp at 40 degrees F, with a 10 mph breeze. I started out at 26 wearing a s/s merino T-shirt, topped with a RailRiders l/s synthetic full-button shirt, topped with a synthetic vest, topped with a wind shirt. At 31, I removed the wind shirt, at 34 I zipped the vest down about 4 inches, at 36 I fully un-zipped the vest, and removed it at 40.

[Jamie Shortt]

Jeremy, I'm not a fleece user for backpacking because of the warmth to weight ratio for down or synthetics. That being said I think a lightweight fleece jacket or pullover is one of the best items when considering functionality versus cost. If you have Jordan's book LB&C chapter 6 "Clothing Systems" is really good. Although a bit dated still completely relevant. There is a great comparison of down vs synthetic vs fleece.

So when don't I use down? and why…its when hiking in weather that are in low 20's. In these temps a wool base + rain shell is too cold for me. Two pieces in my kit are a synthetic vest and synthetic jacket (kits I made from thru-hiker). If you look at the gear list from last November you will see I added a primaloft vest.

LytW8.comjourneys

This was when we had a freak cold front come through NC and just a few days before the low temp on Mount Mitchel was 6 degrees. This is below the range of my 18 oz quilt and my wife was not real happy with me going out alone, so I delayed and added in my cold weather gear for safety. I did not really need it but was fun to have. The first day I was hiking at dusk, 5k-6k ele, below freezing with really fierce winds (wind is a game changer). I was cold in just base layer and rain jacket so I added fleece gloves, synthetic vest and synthetic balaclava and was happy as a clam. If you hike in down you sweat, down gets wet, and this is a problem.

On a trip to mount Rogers with rain, sleet, snow and a low of 15 degree I used my synthetic jacket and vest. This is an awesome combo. I swear it can handle about anything. And I don't worry about it loosing loft if the air get moist or the jacket gets wet… vest only, jacket only, or vest plus jacket.

So with those pieces I can cover all the temperature ranges that I enjoy hiking in.

As far as my tarp MYOG cuben tarp, it has held up amazing well. It has seen wind, rain, etc. It shows no signs of any failure and probably looks almost new. I will say it is small and probably not what I would recommend to many folks until you have spent rainy nights in a slightly wider tarp. Even a 5×8 is wider at the sides and it makes a difference. My tarp has kept lengthy fierce rain off me but there is almost no room for error (especially at the sides) and it is low enough that it is not the real easy to get under it. I will say once you are under the tarp and there is a light rain it is really nice and comfortable but you are not going to sit up. The most practical, durable, lightweight tarp I used was a MLD grace solo cuben. I think it is probably one of the best all around solo tarps available.

About me making gear, the answer is it depends on your needs and my time. I tend to point people to other really good alternatives which I am glad to do. You can PM with anything you want and I will tell you who I would get it from. If that still doesn't meet your needs we can talk further.

Thanks for all your kinds words.

Jamie

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