Jul 17, 2007 at 8:16 pm #1224164
Companion forum thread to:Jul 18, 2007 at 1:12 am #1395731
Thanks for the review.
In Europe the bag is rated Comfort C 7° Extrem C 2° in F 44,6 and 35,5°.
Which fit the picture better.
I had the bag in hand and the impresson is not to good.
In Europe Lafuma is the outfitter for the mass-market and for the real sporty there is Millet, belonging to the same group.
MikeJul 18, 2007 at 1:46 am #1395732
Woubeir (from Europe)Participant
Addint to that,
the 700 FP is measured to European standards and usually is a bit less than measured to North American standards. According to American standards, the FP of this bag is 750.Jul 18, 2007 at 2:06 am #1395733
Doesn't sound like a winner… the question though is why even bother testing a bag with less than 2in loft that claims that temp rating? Surely that claim alone smacks of yet another mass market manufacturer telling fibs… isn't this site about quality gear?!
…On another note. I measured the Marmot Hydrogen's loft at 5in using the height at the chest + height at the knees divided by 2… I believe it is a claimed 4in so well within the claim… it is my favourite bag at the moment – so light and warm… I have taken it above the artic circle with -5Cel nights while staying toasty…Jul 18, 2007 at 3:06 am #1395735
I could not find the EN13537 rating on their product page, and an internet search provides many different answers. I emailed them regarding this.
They could have spent some money having a native English speaker check their website before publishing it; like MB did..
"Does your Lafuma article present an anomaly or underwent some traumatisms?"Jul 18, 2007 at 5:28 am #1395737
Great comments – I think that what you're seeing here is exactly what Will points out and criticizes in his review. You'll notice that he rated the bag "Below Average."
We can't review everything, so why would we choose to review a bag that looks more like hype than substance? It's simple – not everyone knows to evaluate a bag based on things like loft rather than marketing claims, and reviews like this fit perfectly with Backpacking Light's commitment to education. We all like reading the reviews of the *best* (and believe me, the staff would prefer to review that stuff – we have to use this equipment, after all!). It's important that we also evaluate the gear that sounds good, but doesn't deliver.Jul 18, 2007 at 5:31 am #1395738
BTW, Brett – here's Lafuma's product page for this bag:Jul 18, 2007 at 5:58 am #1395741
@mocs123Locale: Southeast Tennessee
Doesn't look like it would be a bad value bag, just not at tempretures below 35-40* I don't know why any company would rate any bag with 8.8oz of 700 fill power down at 25*.Jul 18, 2007 at 2:40 pm #1395810
Bottom line: You get what you pay for.Jul 18, 2007 at 7:56 pm #1395855
@dondoLocale: Colorado Rockies
Will, nice balanced review, as usual. I especially like the fact that you gave it a thumbs down based on Lafuma's 25F rating but a thumbs up based on a 35F rating.
I found this statement a little misleading, though:
"Lafuma’s temperature rating for this bag is 25 °F/-4 °C, tested by an independent lab in compliance with European Standard EN13537. The 25 °F rating is the “Comfort” rating within that standard, which is roughly equivalent to the US sleeping bag rating system."
It appears that Lafuma has done a good job in burying the actual results of the En 13537 test, preferring to substitute it's own suggested rating. I really doubt that this bag earned a T-Comfort rating of 25F. The temperature ratings derived from the En 13537 tests tend to be on the conservative side, if anything.
For example, the Marmot Hydrogen mentioned above has received a T-Comfort rating of 40F and a T-Limit rating of 31F, according to the En 13537 standards.
Also, note the response of Mike Fuetterer in this thread:
"In Europe the bag is rated Comfort C 7° Extrem C 2° in F 44,6 and 35,5°.
Which fit the picture better."Jul 19, 2007 at 3:41 am #1395893
Woubeir (from Europe)Participant
I have to agree with the previous comment.
The 25°C is not the result of the European test. The already mentioned figures of 7°C for comfort and 2°C as a limit or much more likely in that respect. How they got the 25°F quote I don't know but perhaps it's the result of a North American test procedure.
That the comfort rating in the EN-procedure is more or less equivalent to the ratings of NA tests, is a matter of debate. If you look to the US en European website of e.g. TNF and you compare temperature rating, you can see how much difference there can be between a EN-rating and a US-rating. E.g. a classic TNF bag like the Cat's Meow gets a comfort rating up to -4°C in the EU but -9 °C in the US.Jul 19, 2007 at 9:03 am #1395915
@richard295Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Most US manufacturers post their US ratings based on the ISO TR 11079 – Extreme standard. Like the EN 13537 Extreme rating, this rating defines the hypothermia survival point, not the comfort rating. The ISO TR 11079 Extreme rating averages about 12 F more conservative than the EN 13537 Extreme rating.Aug 2, 2007 at 10:06 am #1397198
Lafuma says this is a 7'C (44'F) bag. So I guess the review can be considered a RECOMMEND.
Copy of email from Lafuma attached;
"Subject: RE: EN13537 rating of 650 Pro bag please
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 12:12:11 +0200
From: "SAMATO" Add to Address BookAdd to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
Please find below the requested information :
WARM AND LIGHT 650 PRO ref LFC1320: CONFORT: + 7°C – TRANSITION: + 2°C – RISK: -13°C
Your Customer Service
De : Brett
Envoyé : mercredi 18 juillet 2007 12:04
À : CONTACT
Objet : EN13537 rating of 650 Pro bag please
What is the EN13537 tested tenperature rating of the 650 Pro down sleeping bag please? 'C is fine.
Brett.Aug 6, 2007 at 3:33 am #1397530
Carlos Bruno YonzonMember
Good reasoning for testing it. I for one have fallen ill to such marketing claims. For a lot of consumers, the information these gear makers proclaim are "truth". Even though it may sometimes seem "too good to be true", you can't help but think that it really could be a "breakthrough product". Thanks BPL for carrying on with your commitment to educate. Too bad it came after i almost froze my bum off using an inappropriate sleeping bag.:DSep 26, 2007 at 8:09 am #1403656
My name is Herve Beaujean, i'am the sleeping bag product manager for the LAFUMA Group.
Before, all thks BPL for testing our gear and thks everyone for your comments. It helps us a lot for working on new products.
Two things :
Warm n light 650 PRO will be rated in the USA at 30°F in summer 09 sales season. It was a mistake from us to rate it at 25°F. For your information, European standart result test is (comfort/limit comfort/extreme) 7/2/-13°C.
Fill power is 700cuin in European standart test method. So it will be around 750+ FP in US standart.
Hope it will clarify your point of view on this product.
PS : sorry, as everyone knows french people are not pretty good in foreign langage, like american and english people also ;-)Sep 11, 2010 at 8:27 am #1644749
@babymattyLocale: Western/Central PA, Adirondacks
Just an update – I have the 2008 model, I believe. I got it off Steep and Cheap in January. This is the model:
I have slept comfortably in this bag at around 27 degrees. I was in a double-walled tent, on a Thermarest Trail Lite, wearing synthetic long johns, and a merino long sleeve top and a wool cap. There are some thin spots, but overall I was never too chilly to sleep. My eggs were frozen to slush when I got up in the morning. If a similar deal can be found (got mine for $85), I believe that this bag is a great value. The 2010 model is out and they both look to have the exact same specs – 500g 750 fill down, weighs 1 lb 7 oz
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