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What Dan McHale has to say about UL backpacks


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Viewing 24 posts - 126 through 149 (of 149 total)
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  • #2162535
    Kevin Buggie
    BPL Member

    @kbug

    Locale: NW New Mexico

    "has anyone used his stuff in a work capacity, 180+ days a year, year after year after year?"

    Those people, who do exist you'll find, don't hang out on forums.

    #2162561
    Doug Smith
    BPL Member

    @jedi5150

    Locale: Central CA

    Gregory, you remind me of a KLR owner. When I run into folks who ride a KLR 650 as their adventure bike, they often think I'm totally nuts for paying for a BMW R1200. I get comments like, "your bike costs more than my car!…and it's a motorcycle". Value, if I remember right, means what someone is willing to pay for a product. When I'm comfortable, and enjoying the 1,100 mile mark 19 hours into a ride, and keeping up with some sport bikes in the twisties, I remember why I was willing to buy a BMW instead of a KLR.

    If Osprey packs work great for you, sweet. Stick with them. I like McHale, and Kifaru, and plan on trying out a Mystery Ranch. The fact that someone pays more for a product than you are willing to, does not mean they are being scammed, and that you're the "smart one". ;-)

    I enjoy firearms as a hobby. I never plan on spending $7,000 on an Accuracy International rifle or $3,500 on a Schmidt and Bender scope, but that doesn't mean I don't envy the folks who have them. haha

    #2162562
    Gregory Petliski
    Member

    @gregpphoto

    It was TWO words! I kid. I dont think I was questioning anyones integrity, but I am no hypocrite. Before progressing towards conservation work, I was a freelance photographer for about eight years. I had absolutely no problems whatsoever with people dissing me, saying I charge too much, etc etc etc. Thats life, not everyone digs ya. I was more than happy to explain why I charged $2,000 for a wedding, and why thats actually a cheap price. Unlike yourself, perhaps, I harbor no ill will towards those who question things.

    #2162563
    Gregory Petliski
    Member

    @gregpphoto

    I dont envy people for having possessions that I dont have myself. Thats kinda silly, if you ask me. I do question why some spend their money on what I deem to be an extremely overpriced product, but I am of course aware that this is just my opinion. I thought thats why people go on to message boards? To voice their opinion and to hear others do the same.

    #2162577
    Michael L
    BPL Member

    @mpl_35

    Locale: NoCo

    "So what if a company sources from Asia? Heck, if the products are still well made and are sold for less — that's the very definition of good value!"

    Come off it Ben. There are plenty of economic reasons to prefer to buy from companies that don't move manufacturing overseas. And it isn't xenophobia.

    I don't care but don't sling ridiculous insults.

    #2162578
    Doug Smith
    BPL Member

    @jedi5150

    Locale: Central CA

    As for the not ever envying someone for having something you don't…I'll have to take your word on that. Some folks have toys/ houses, property, jobs, etc. that I'd absolutely love to have. If I'm silly for that, so be it, but at least I'm honest.

    Sharing opinions is what message boards are for, you're right. Making snide remarks about people who don't share yours is not.

    #2162588
    David Ure
    Member

    @familyguy

    Hi Ben, nice to hear from you. Hope all is well.

    #2162590
    Patrick O’Neil
    Spectator

    @human

    I've owned an osprey before and found the netting really uncomfortable couldn't get the pack on my hips properly the last straw was the plastic framesheet shattering in an overhead compartment of a greyhound bus. Granted it wasn't the fabled exos but it was similar. I own a catalyst and find it's great under thirty pounds, over that and just not comfortable. Granted i've only had it over thirty pounds on work out day hikes and thats not what it's made for.

    I just got a sarc chasm, yeah it was expensive, shipping back and forth from canada for demo and final product alone was pricey but this thing is a beast. 65 pounds in the demo no problem felt better than 35 in the catalyst. I thought this kind of talk was all hype but its proven to be true for me. I'll be using it for a tame hike in torres del paine but carrying for two for an entire trip not just hiking and it fits great so worth it for me. I only wish I had not spent so much money on mail order packs that do not fit. If I lived in the u.s. this would not be a problem as I see used packs sell quickly.

    #2162608
    Brad Rogers
    BPL Member

    @mocs123

    Locale: Southeast Tennessee

    I have owned a lot of packs and a lot of them I only had a few trips with (doesn't take long to decide it's not for me). I had significant time in a Mountainsmith phantom that was a really nice pack that I chose it over the Gregory z pack and osprey Aether 60 – bought all 3 and sold the other two after two trips each – the Mountainsth had a few holes in it when I sold it after ~1500 miles. I replaced it with a Gossamer Gear Mariposia plus (the old ugly one with the carbon fiber stays) and used it for ~1000 miles when I replaced it with a Six moon designs Swift (the frameless one with the sewn on hipbelt) and it was a fantastic pack that I used for 1200 miles before the hipbelt started ripping out of the pack. I have it band aided and continue to use from time to time. I also have a ULA Conduit that I use for summer weekend trips. It only has a couple of hundred miles on it since most of my summer trips are out west and I use a bigger pack for that.

    If you haven't seen the construction of a McHale up close you just don't get how well they are constructed. Even for a dyneema grid pack such as mine he uses a full specta bottom. His daisy chains are fully backed so they aren't just sewn to the pack fabric. You could hang from those daisy chain loops. The way he attaches his sholder straps is super durable as well. The more you look at the details of his packs and they way they are constructed the more you appreciate them.

    I used to get out for 50+ nights a year and do 1000 miles a year but with a demanding job, wife, and two kids it isn't as easy as it used to be. The past few years I have been down to a couple week long trips out west and little if any hiking here. In fact that is one of the reasons I decided to buy a McHale. My trips are longer and usually include a bear can. My wife is going on more trips which means carrying more luxury gear and the kids might start going so I might end up a Sherpa.

    I am not saying a McHale is for everyone, nor is it worth the cost for everyone, but I am saying that he will talk with you for hours getting you exactly what works best for you.

    Is it worth it? To some yes and others no, but having owned an osprey and a McHale the quality is night and day. That isn't saying that a osprey can't be serviceable for many years.

    #2162627
    rOg w
    BPL Member

    @rog_w

    Locale: rogwilmers.com

    deleted

    #2162633
    Stephen M
    BPL Member

    @stephen-m

    Locale: Way up North

    I have a McHale pack, yes it was expensive but to me it's
    Like having two different packs as I can remove the lid and other
    items for differing trips. For me the biggest thing is the custom fit.

    #2162644
    BPLwiia
    Spectator

    @bplwiia

    It is difficult to understand the quality of a McHale pack unless you've seen and used them. I have 4 backpacks which include a McHale I bought 17 years ago to an 8.6oz ZPacks Blast.

    They each have their merits and when I am going out for an overnight or weekend, I'll use the ZPacks. It's light and forces me to pack light. By days end, I feel fresh because I haven't hauled around a lot of weight.

    If I need to carry around more weight, such as during the winter, I have the McHale pack which is extraordinary. There is no question but that a McHale pack, at least mine, is a multi-generation pack. It will outlast me and probably outlast whoever I give it to.

    I enjoy all of the innovation that allows us to carry at a fraction of the weight. I also enjoy a timeless McHale pack that will allow me to comfortably carry greater weight when the need arises. For some of you, that need may never arise. For me it does.

    #2162650
    Max Dilthey
    Spectator

    @mdilthey

    Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com

    I hemmed and hawed over a backpack for a long time. Tested out Ospreys, Gregories, Granite Gears, etc. The works.

    Today I use an old Kelty frame pack. It's comfortable.

    REPEAT: It's Comfortable.

    If your pack is comfortable, it doesn't matter what you paid. For those unsatisfied with Osprey, McHale is there making a niche product for those willing to (rightfully) invest in their hobby. I'm sure there aren't droves of backpackers buying McHales as their first pack. All owners understand what they are paying for beyond an Osprey.

    As to the little argument here, I really don't understand how discussion of a product is a personal insult to "the man" that Dan McHale is. We can critique backpacks without it being considered slander and libel… right?

    #2162655
    David Ure
    Member

    @familyguy

    " I really don't understand how discussion of a product is a personal insult to "the man" that Dan McHale is. We can critique backpacks without it being considered slander and libel… right?"

    Indeed. However, without actually trying a Mchale pack in the field, criticism of his designs is hearsay – not to be confused with heresy…;). Ergo, a comparison of a Mchale to an Osprey or whatever is truly not applicable unless the person comparing the packs has used both.

    Full Disclosure: I own several packs including a Mchale and I love them all.

    #2162657
    EndoftheTrail
    BPL Member

    @ben2world-2

    "We can critique backpacks without it being considered slander and libel… right?"

    Seems HYOH is an easy concept to understand. The problem is we too often lack a respect for people who differ from us.

    #2162658
    EndoftheTrail
    BPL Member

    @ben2world-2

    Howdy, Dave. All is well, thanks, and hope you are enjoying the new year!

    #2162659
    EndoftheTrail
    BPL Member

    @ben2world-2

    @Michael L

    Don't pretend there isn't too often an undercurrent of anti-China mentality here. And only an idiot would think that a general statement automatically applies to every single reader. I don't really care either, Michael, but folks can make general observations without them pertaining to you specifically. Get off your ego, eh?

    #2162666
    Michael L
    BPL Member

    @mpl_35

    Locale: NoCo

    Ben,

    The anti-China mentality? You mean the group that wants to buy American so as to not outsource jobs? Or the group that thinks that outsourcing is dangerous because China doesn't respect patents? Or the group that thinks many of the products made overseas are of lower quality? None of those rise to the level of xenophobia except in your mind. For somebody that doesn't care, why do you go on the attack whenever you see anybody question buying foreign made goods from China?

    And I didn't think your insults had anything to do with me. I'm not even sure where you got that idea. Pointing out that you are overly sensitive about China, has nothing to do with me ego.

    #2162668
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    Michael and I are two peas in same pod : )

    Don't buy Chinese or any other country that has big trade imbalance – bad for both countries. Yet I still buy cheap Chinese stuff on ocasion.

    Chinese culture in a lot of ways is more advanced than Western culture. Great when we can combine cultures and take best from both.

    #2162694
    Gregory Petliski
    Member

    @gregpphoto

    "Seems HYOH is an easy concept to understand. The problem is we too often lack a respect for people who differ from us."

    Can someone point out what it was that I said that was so disrespectful? The worst thing I wrote was "That dude is just plain nuts though for selling packs at 1K. They dont even have the cool archeopteryx fossil like Arcteryx does hehe."

    #2162699
    Doug Smith
    BPL Member

    @jedi5150

    Locale: Central CA

    I'm happy to point it out for you Greg:

    " I also have some bridges for sale if anyones interested"

    -Translation: Not only do I not believe that his packs are worth their incredibly high price, but everyone who buys one is a sucker.

    Like I said in my last post, having your own opinions is what we're all about. It's healthy. Putting other folks down for having their own opinions is rude. If you can't see that, I guess my time in typing this has been wasted.

    Just so you don't get the wrong idea, I'm really not concerned with whether you think I'm a sucker or not for buying a McHale. My only purpose in making the few posts I did was because you seem to have such a hard time grasping why some folks didn't care for your comments. I was trying to clarify it for you.

    #2162703
    Harald Hope
    Spectator

    @hhope

    Locale: East Bay

    "Michael and I are two peas in same pod : )"

    As soon as production is outsourced, quality control grows harder and harder to do. That's why I don't even consider any 'cottage' gear maker who is outsourcing, along with the other fine reasons given above. I had a friend who ages before most of you thought of outsourcing made messenger bags, and at one point he tried outsourcing, and found that it took him more time to fix the poor work quality than he saved, so he stopped. You can't pretend that tarptent or zpacks, who have all the production directly in their area, or enlightenment equipment, etc, aren't able to do radically better real time quality control while providing good local jobs, and magically being able to deliver the product at very good prices, which of course is why outsourcing really happens, it's to raise profits. If you paid the real cost of production on all that patagonia junk, you'd be paying a small fraction of the price they charge.

    I'm not against chinese production or buying chinese per se, I got a super cheap ultralight wind breaker that's lighter than I think anything else you can buy for about 20 bucks, straight from china. I'm sure my zebralight is made in china too, you can source good quality if you have a very tight control of the entire supply chain, but there's a practice in china of setting up show production facilities where they take the client, and then the actual production happens in further secondary outsourced facilities.

    With wind breakers, for example, you can very easily see what the massively overpriced corporate stuff yields in profit, I'd say for about 10 bucks more, ie, 30 bucks total shipped from china to you, you can make a perfect copy of a houdini or whatever, the rest is just corporate skimming off the top.

    As for Dan, he should probably be more careful of his absolute statements, but I can say that I followed his advice when I made my packs (use lots of thread), and if you 'use lots of thread', you're talking about almost an order of magnitude difference in sewing times, though I also agree that it probably wouldn't kill him to go the tarptent/zpacks/mld route and just build up a small dedicated team of sewers. Well, MLD would benefit from that too, but it is hard to really judge when it's a good idea to do that and when not. But by 'using lots of thread', you also use lots of time, the benefit of which I discovered the first time I tried ripping apart a failed pack I'd done, it was basically impossible to rip, very close to it, and that's when I realized that running all those extra stitches is really a big chunk of what makes packs so durable.

    Myself, I'd take Dan's core philosophy about that type of construction, and blend it with lighter materials, which in fact results in a pack that carries up to 25 pounds just fine, with a semi frame of carbon fiber tubing, using a pad for the back frame as well, that weighs 18 ounces or so. My first long trip with it I was unable to detect any discomfort at all at my starting weight of 25 pounds, though I agree that going above 25 pounds would be uncomfortable the first day.

    There's a pretty big space between a rock solid mchale and a flimsy frameless bag, I have a 2 poundish Lowe Alpine UL 50L backpack made just before Lowe vanished/sold, that has the best frame/hipbelt system of anything I've ever seen, but also suffered from 'not enough thread', being made in vietnam and not adequately quality controlled, but as a concept, it showed what you can do with good materials at about 2 pounds. Knocking some internal stuff off it and relying on foam pad more would knock maybe 1/2 pound off the weight, but it requires non cottage sourcing of components to do that.

    I by the way always use a frameless pack, every day, whenever I leave the house, no car, my 'base weight' on it is about 6-8 pounds, and loaded it's about 20- pounds max, that's a bit too much for my shoulders, 12-15 is fine as long as there's a sternum strap. I made a shoulder strap only pack just to see, and I don't really like it, I see no advantage to carrying all the weight on my shoulders, but clearly that's fine for many people, so that's obviously something that simply varies person to person.

    #2162762
    Valerie E
    Spectator

    @wildtowner

    Locale: Grand Canyon State

    One point that might be missing from the discussion is the level of work it takes to make a custom pack, especially an internal framed one. Those of you who have MYOG'ed a framed pack know how long it took, and it was likely a labour of love to complete it.

    Comparing a custom McHale pack to an Osprey (or similar) is like comparing a custom-made, hand tailored suit to an off-the-rack one. The custom suit can't use standard pattern pieces and sew them together assembly-line fashion. Each pattern piece has to be modified to a custom size and fit. That requires a LOT of time. There are few economies of scale (which reduce the price of the Osprey). Mr. McHale is not a hobbyist, obviously, so he has to set his prices at a level that will enable him (and any sub-contractors) to live in the USA with its relatively high cost of living. Overseas workers will be paid according to their cost of living scale and the expectations of their environment — and we outsource to those places precisely because their salaries (and cost of living) is lower.

    I don't have a McHale pack, and for me, $800+ is more than I would be comfortable spending on a pack. But having done some custom sewing (I make custom rock climbing chalk bags, mostly a hobby) I know how much time it requires to create a pattern out of your head, and take it to fruition.

    #2162789
    Patrick O’Neil
    Spectator

    @human

    I suppose disposable income and wants not necessarily needs come into play as well. In absolute terms 1k is not going to bankrupt me. We could however be having the same discussion about cars. I know people that make half my salary yet spend what I think is an outrageous amount of money on cars, engagement rings, kids etc. We could have this debate about any expenditure or consumer product.

Viewing 24 posts - 126 through 149 (of 149 total)
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