Target – 1/4 zip 100 wt fleece on sale $12.

[Delmar O’Donnell]

If you're of the mind that a fleece is a fleece is a fleece, Target has these Champion C9 high-collar fleeces on sale for $12, down from $18. A medium is 8.8 oz.

I've read some complaints about sizing and fit on these, since the source has become Cambodia (old ones were Indonesia). I think they're a little smaller in cut than my similar weight and size Marmot and LLBean, so fit on me is more like a shirt and less like a sweater.

EDIT: Now reduced to $9, 1/31/14.

[zorobabel frankenstein]

Thanks,
I'll try to check it out tomorrow.

[Benjamin Meadors]

Delmar, did you see any of the other Champion winter items on sale, like the thermals? I have some of the Duofold Wool blend thermal, and I might like to pick up another pair.
Also, I recommend the Champion stretch fleece beanie. I've been wearing mine a lot this winter.
Thanks

[Paul Magnanti]

Something similar on sale from Sports Authority. $12 with S&H included, too.
http://bit.ly/K8ddTf

[Benjamin Meadors]

Paul, I picked up an Alpine Designs 100 weight fleece very similar to the one you linked to, but it had an additional arm zip pocket. It clocked in at 8.5oz on my scale. This one is probably lighter due to the omission of the unnecessary ipod pocket.
It's a nice garment, but a little big on the sizing.

[Delmar O’Donnell]

Sorry Benjamin, I did not notice, but…it appears the markdown I saw in the store is mirrored online. So maybe a check of target.com will find your item?

[Hammock Hanger]

Champion has made some of my favorite 'finds' over the years, but their brand name doesn't get a lot of attention.

Can anybody take a second and explain the fleece rating scale in UL terms? What does 100 weight fleece translate to in warmth?

Thanks.

[Delmar O’Donnell]

Quoting Dr. Nisley:

"100 Series (frequently called Micro Fleece) weighs 5.9-6.2 oz/yd2 and is .944-.992 clo.
With only moderate activity it is good for about 50F used with your light water resistant jacket."

Here's where I get confused: does that mean .94-.99 CLO for a long sleeve top/shirt/sweater? It must, otherwise Richard would have given Iclo instead, and let us calculate for whatever type of garment. But the confusing part is that the number is very high (equivalent to the insulation value of a 3-piece wool business suit).

Later in the thread Richard says: "the clo value for Polartec 100 (assumes comparable insulation to Polartec 100 on the rest of the body) and the Army BDU have the same clo of approximately 1."

In which case, it's reasonable to assume the number given is Iclo (Iclo = CLO when the entire body is covered in said insulator) and Iclo requires a calculation where we multiply by coverage:

.96 * .48 = .46.

A CLO of .46 for a top makes more sense to me, although still plenty high, as CLO charts give .36 for a thick LS sweater. Somewhere I saw a 100 wt polartec shirt rated at .40.

Take a number and plug it into Richard's chart (found in BPL thread 9378) and you can see where a 100 wt will take you for climbing, walking, sitting, resting, and sleeping. Of course you'd want to test your entire ensemble.

[Paul Magnanti]

Funny it used to be the other way around in temperature ratings. Fleece was the baseline for others. :)

No direct temp rating scale, but this guide should help:
http://www.backcountry.com/sc/fleece-jacket-guide

[zorobabel frankenstein]

http://www.target.com/p/c9-by-champion-men-s-quarter-zip-fleece-pullover-assorted-colors/-/A-14685163#prodSlot=medium_1_50

[Hammock Hanger]

Thanks Delmar and Paul. See, this is what confuses me about fleece.
I have several LL Bean 2006 pullover 1/4 zip shirt-sweaters in a very lightweight fleece I would almost describe as a tight weave velour. They have a high warmth rating yet give very little warmth in actual cool-cold weather.
I have several zip vests (Land's End) of what feels like the same or very similar weight velour which are quite warm at the same temps.
And several unlined fleece zip jacket/sweaters that are good down to 30.

I don't see a logical relationship or formula between fleece thickness and effective warmth. Can anyone put it into words?

Thanks

[Delmar O’Donnell]

You're positive that wind or wind blocking was the same for the comparison? As you know, the slightest wind on uncovered fleece will zap its insulative value because it's so breathable. Fleece almost requires a shell in the outdoors, and I'd want to know if your wind blocking was equivalent, across your comparison?

[Jerry Adams]

I think fleece provides very little warmth. Richard said about 1 clo for 100 wt. I don't think heavier fleece provides that much more.

If you're hiking and it's very cold so you need something more than base layer and jacket, then fleece is good. Doesn't provide much warmth, but that's what you want or you'll sweat.

It all goes back to Richard's chart http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/9378/index.html

For moderate pace walking, 1 clo good for 50 F, 2 clo good for 10 F. Base layer, jacket, trapped air layers, boundary layer on the outside is maybe 2 clo. If you add 1 clo, then you can do 40 F colder.

For sleeping, 1 clo adds maybe 8 F, hardly noticeable. If you have fleece anyway, you can wear it while sleeping but it doesn't much matter.

I think sometimes the term clo is used when really iclo is more precisely correct. And, of course, if you're talking about what insulation to put over your entire body they're the same – if you say 1 clo is good for 50 F, you need 1 clo on your head, 1 clo jacket, and 1 clo pants.

[Ian]

Thanks for sharing this Delmar. I'll pick one up later today.

[Hammock Hanger]

Delmar, thanks for all your posts. So per the handy chart, if there are 3 uniform weights to non-waterproof fleece, then my zip pullovers are 100's, my Lands End vests are probably 200s, my unlined sweater-jackets are 300s. OK.
Under the same windproof shell and over the same polypro baselayer they provide very different subjective warmth levels, which does not always correlate to their stated weight.
On the East Coast one big advantage is that fleece does not absorb humidity. And it dries fast. And it's sturdy as an outershell, and stays comfortable at a wider range of temp swing than a midweight down jacket.
Bulk is not always a negative. I personally get more subjective warmth out of a fleece and a thin top shell than from a heavier insulated jacket. YMMV. Until we are talking really cold, 25 or below, and then I want down. I don't see those temps too often.

[Paul Magnanti]

I actually use fleece in 25F or below conditions as well. I put out a lot of heat and fleece lets the moisture pass through while still keeping me warm.

Puffies, be they synethic or down, soaks up moisture from my sweat evaporating.

Now, this is while moving. Stationary, I throw on a puffy layer of some sort.

[Anonymous]

I would really like to try polypropylene fleece, but unfortunately, the company that makes it, mostly only seems to sell to the military and the last i checked they were out of pre made fleeces and when i inquired about fabric by the yard, they said i would have to order a roll at 50-60 yards, at 7 something a yard. According to the company, the PP fleeces have higher CLO value at less weight because PP is a lighter material in general than polyester, and has lower thermal conductivity. (another added benefit is that the material absorbs less moisture than even polyester).

What would be really awesome, is polypropylene grid fleece.

[Hammock Hanger]

Justin, if you are looking for GI polypro base layers, lots of online companies sell them as military surplus, usually new.

[Link .]

.

[Anonymous]

Hi H.H.

Yeah, i have some of that stuff. What i'm talking about is a true, double looped fleece made out of polypropylene instead of polyester. Like the polartec fleeces.

One of the PP military surplus baselayers i have, has a brushed fleecy inside and a smooth woven outer, but that wouldn't be as warm as a thicker, full fleece type fabric. Granted, it's still fairly warm though.

The below link will link you to the only company that i know that makes such polypropylene fleeces. Check out the CLO value and weight difference between the polypropylene and polyester fleeces. Impressive if it's accurate.

http://outerbounds.us/what-we-do

[Benjamin Meadors]

I've always heard that polypro is a more efficient textile in terms of insulation than polyester, but I also remember reading a thread a while ago, mentioning that it does not hold up well as polyester(it pills up quickly), and odor control is much worse than polyester. It looks like Outer bounds has added some anti-microbial stuff to combat the stink. It's probably silver, like that x-static used in polartec garments.

[Anonymous]

Hi Benjamin,

Re: the pilling up, i'm not sure in regards to this specific application and kind of garment, and when i asked if anyone had any experience with polypropylene (true) fleece, no one answered affirmatively. Woven polyproplene is a bit weaker than woven polyester, but not by much.

Yes, the odor issue is definitely a big issue with polypropylene. I've found that wearing Merino blends underneath the polypropylene helps reduce that issue. I personally wouldn't wear PP as a baselayer because of the quick and bad, and potentially permanent stink.

Anyways, i will stop derailing Delmar's thread here. If anyone is ever interested in doing a group buy of some of that PP fleece, let me know. I would go in as much as 10 yds of the stuff once i start working again.

[Delmar O’Donnell]

> I think fleece provides very little warmth. Richard said about 1 clo for 100 wt. I don't think heavier fleece provides that much more.

I dunno; a CLO of 1 is pretty respectable, equivalent to a wool suit. But I'm pretty sure Richard meant Iclo of a little under 1 for 100 wt fleece, which has to be multiplied by garment coverage. According to notes I've taken:

– “Average” Polartec 100 weight shirt CLO = .40
– “Average” Polartec 200 wt shirt CLO = .76
– “Average” Polartec 300 wt shirt CLO = 1.03

Remember you have to add the above CLO to whatever else you're wearing to get an overall CLO to look up on Richard's chart. I doubt few of us are wearing a fleece shirt and naked everywhere else (except Paul, maybe).

> So per the handy chart, if there are 3 uniform weights to non-waterproof fleece, then my zip pullovers are 100's, my Lands End vests are probably 200s, my unlined sweater-jackets are 300s. OK.

I also wondered what oz weights applied to the various polartec weights for shirts/sweaters, and here are my notes:

– 100 wt tops range 6-11 oz.
– 200 wt tops range 13-20 oz.
– 300 wt tops, I don't know; I've seen one number at 32 oz.

> I would really like to try polypropylene fleece…Anyways, i will stop derailing Delmar's thread here. If anyone is ever interested in doing a group buy of some of that PP fleece, let me know.

Me too! and Please continue! I don't sew (yet) so I wouldn't know what to do with a bolt of PP fleece, but I'd stand in line to buy a sweater of it. Generally the base layer soaks up most of the odor, so I don't imagine having a PP insulating layer would be so bad.

Start a thread on it in the MYOG Justin, and I'll bet you get your buyers in no time.

[Anonymous]

Hi Delmar,

Not much else to say about it, but that's a good suggestion about the MYOG and starting a thread there, thanks. I may do that once i'm working again. Man, you really need to learn how to sew!

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