skirt vs. pants

[paul johnson]

many thanks for the reply & info.
pj

[shannon stoney]

I like these ideas very much–thanks to the geezerette! When I hike in my neighborhood in a skirt, it is indeed much easier to pee. If you don’t have on underwear you can pee standing up, even. Once I did this in my garden, and my boyfriend said, “I haven’t seen anybody do that since Granny West did it when I was a little boy.” So apparently rural women in the South have known about this convenience for a long time.

I have never noticed that bugs are a big problem with skirts. I have noticed that if you get a little stinky, gnats will sort of congregate around your crotch, but this happens whether you are wearing a skirt or not.

Skirts do seem to stay cleaner than pants. YOu can wear one for days before it becomes intolerable and has to be washed. The sarong style can be used as a sheet on nights when it’s too hot to crawl in your sleeping bag, or used as a towel, or a tablecloth. In West Africa women use their sarongs for everything: skirts, cloths to spread out their wares on at market, picnic clothes for eating, baby carriers, etc.

[shannon stoney]

Hi patti–I looked at the macabi skirt site and that skirt looks great. But I don’t understand the clip that clips it up in front. Is that a separate piece of hardware or is it attached to the skirt? What does it look like?

[Ken Helwig]

shannon you rock!

[shannon stoney]

thank you, and I also found out how the macabi skirt works so that I don’t have to buy one. If you go to their site and go to the men’s section of the website, there is a long review for backpackinggear.org that explains exactly how the clips work, by a guy named Shane.

Later I realized that a sarong works pretty much the same way, only with less hardware. You can hike it up as high as you want, and even pull the bottom up through your legs as with the macabi skirt and tuck it into the fold at the waist.

I saw some paintings by Winslow Homer that showed women working on a beach in the 19th century, and they had hiked up their skirts somehow. These were European women so they weren’t wearing sarongs. Maybe they had strings of some kind that went through loops at the bottom of their skirts and then through a loop at the waist.

[J R]

Utilikilt is a company making.. ahem.. untraditional kilts… their latest offering is a bit odd, but Ive had my eye on it for hiking.

Im a kilt wearer as it is, so theres no drama for me in wearing one on the trail, but this particular item is odd. Solid color, made of a light nylon or maybe satin, with a wait on it like kickboxer shorts, and “racing stripes” up the side….

But if your not looking for tradition at all… and like the benefits of a kilt, but dont want the 8-16oz matrial weight… the “Spartan” might be for you.

I just bought a new kilt for my wedding, but maybe next year I can drop the coin a hiking kilt.

http://www.utilikilts.com/spartancoming.htm

[J R]

double post

[Bill Fornshell]

I don’t care much for the “Utilikilt” and would call it a sports skirt and not a Kilt. The Black Watch material for my “Great Kilt” weighs 19oz. I consider this to heavy for hiking. I have enough of this same material to make a skirt only type Kilt from it. The material weight is still a little heavy.

I have worked with light silk 0.64oz to 1.02oz per sq yard. Using silk paint and dyes on it. The silk comes white and would need to be dyed or painted some plaid like pattern and then sewn into a skirt type kilt. If I was going to try something like this I would pick 3 typical plaid colors and sort of paint a plaid look on the silk. No real detail as that would be more trouble than I would try. A silk kilt would be cool for warm weather and would dry fast if it got wet.

I have a web site with a pattern for the skirt type kilt and it says I would need 4 yards of 42″ wide fabric. If I used silk the fabric weight would be between 3 and 4oz. A silk kilt of this weight would be good for a hiking kilt.

[J R]

You dont care much for the Spartan Utilikilt, or the Utilikilt in general?

Theres no question that the Utilikilt is not traditional, but its hard to call something like the “Workman” a “Sports Skirt”…. the Spartan? You might have a point. Once upon a time, they offered a utilikilt in Epic Cotton. I guess it had some durability issues… but kind of cool anyway.

I have a kilt made by Bear Kilts. Mine is a more traditional Short kilt, and weighs far too much for ultralighting… but the maker says his poly-viscose Canadian province tartans are printed on a lighter material that would make a kilt roughly 12oz in weight according to him.

Another option if your looking for a lighter weight item with true(r) styling… check out SportKilts. Poly Viscose material. Velcro/Elastic waist. Many tartans to choose from…. popular with Highland gamers, and they have made more than a few trips down the AT… might not be bad to look into.

Edit – Also.. Why the need for a plaide pattern? Irish kilts are traditionally solid… and same with a not insignificant number of Scottish kilts. Saffron and Green are the most common, but Blue and Gray are common too. Also, tweed has been used for kilts since the beginning of tweed. Anyway…….. solid aint so bad.

[Bill Fornshell]

I don’t like the Utilikilt products. I am to much a traditionalist to like what they sell. I looked at the Bear Kilt site and do like them. The plaid ones that is.

I have a slight family connection to Scotland and with a stretch can trace it to the Fife District and a plaid pattern.

I have read about several guys that have worn a kilt on there AT Hike.

[shannon stoney]

I have read, in more than one place, that the idea that each clan had a particular pattern or tartan is, well, bullshit. That idea was invented by the Victorians apparently during their sentimentalization of highland culture in the 19th century, after destroying it mercilessly in the 18th century. Not unlike the way we Euro-Americans have invented the culture of the native people here, after virtually exterminating them. (Example: when I was a child my family used to drive through Cherokee, NC, every summer. There would be an “indian” standing on the sidewalk, supposedly a Cherokee, in full Plains Indian regalia, nothing like what real Cherokees wore.)

I became skeptical of the clan plaid idea when I became a weaver and discovered that plaids are a great way to use up odds and ends of different colors of yarn. You can design your plaid to fit what you have on hand. Surely the highland Scots before the clearances were also frugal in this way. Also it is very boring to weave the same pattern over and over.

[paul johnson]

in point of fact, tartans actually go back quite a ways and were not a latter day invention.

however, the ancient tartans in many cases differ significantly from the modern ones. in many cases they were far plainer/duller in nature.

[my first post, in part above, was brief & due to that fact was not entirely accurate. not realizing then that it would arouse more interest than this subject is worth on a backpacking website, i have edited with quotations from various sources. on this subject matter some “cart before the horse” conclusions have been drawn and are widely printed elsewhere – on both sides of the issue. in some cases, what poses as relatively modern scholarship ignores much ancient tradition going back 100’s of years. in other cases, what poses as recognized tradition ignores some hard facts. the truth, perhaps, lies somewhere in between the extremes. in the following additions, i have attempted to be even handed, including info which both supports & discredits the extremism of both sides of this debate. it is certainly NOT exhaustive in nature, nor is it intended to be. rather, it should present some of the salient points of this issue. i do not regard myself as any type of expert in this area, but i do know how to read & read i have – writings on both sides of the issue.]

There are references to “tartans” in extant writings: “In 1538 there is a reference to ‘Heland Tartan’. A Frenchman at the siege of Haddington in 1537 describes Highlanders who were present as wearing what appears to be Tartan. From 1581 there is a description of ‘variegated garments, especially stripes, and their favourite colours are purple and blue’. Poet John Taylor clearly describes the woollen Tartan garments of Highlanders at Braemar in 1618. Martin, a doctor on Skye around 1700, gives the first descriptions of Tartan which imply their significance as regional and the importance to weavers of ensuring that their cloth always has precise local patterns. Martin states that it is possible to tell from a man’s plaid where he came from. There is no implication from any of this that specific families or Clans wore their ‘own’ Tartans – the patterns appeared to be regional.” [emphasis mine] Note that clans, generally speaking, had historical, ancestral regions, and so the clans of the region, to some extent became associated with the tartans of the region – albeit, not the modern version of the tartans.

“The author of Certayne Matters concerning Scotland, who wrote prior to 1597, said of the Highlanders that “they delight in marbled colours especially that have long stripes of sundry colours; they love chiefly purple and blue”. The word (tartan) is held to be derived from the French teretaine, a kind of linsey-woolsey cloth. The particular setts, or patterns of tartans which distinguish each clan, must have been fixed before 1645, probably before 1600. Martin says that every tribe and every island differed from the rest in the fancy of making plaids, as to the stripes in breadth and colours. The word (tartan) is held to be derived from the French teretaine, a kind of linsey-woolsey cloth. Lord Lorne in 1889 discovered at Inveraray old records of the clan Campbell which make frequent mention of tartans; and tartans worn at the battle of Kilsyth (1645) have been seen by living witnesses.”

Furthermore, “There is no evidence that Wilson’s Tartans had anything whatsoever to do with any ancient regional or pre-1746 patterns.” Looking at it logically, if the wearing of “clan”/regional tartans was banned about this time, they must already have acheived some measure of significance prior to the advent of the “modern” tartans designed by Wilson. If they had no significance, then why ban them? Instead, simply ignore them.

they should be referred to as tartans, not plaids. plaid is the basic fabric woven in a precise fashion. tartan is the specific pattern. (pg. 3, the setts and weaving of Tartans by Mary E. Black). She also states that “There is nothing that will arouse the ire of a Scotsman more quickly than to refer to an authentic tartan as a plaid.” [Note: the term plaid should NOT be confused with the Scottish term “plaidie” which is NOT a reference to plaid fabric/material.]

“The first tartans were desiged by individual weavers and then over time were gradually adopted to identify individual districts, then finally clans and families. The first real effort to enforce uniformity throughout an entire clan was in 1618, when Sir Robert Gordon of Gordonstoun, wrote to Murry of Pulrossie requesting that he bring the plaids worn by his men into “harmony with that of his other septs.”

the fact that so many clans have popularly adopted the more modern tartans as clan tartans does not obviate the fact that more ancient forms of tartan existed. to assume that just because an enterprising businessman recognized a good way to make a “pound”, that clan tartans began with him is an “ignoratio elenchi”. also, to assume apart from other evidence (a small amt of which was presented above) that clan tartans always existed because they exist now is a non-sequitar. one must be careful (including this writer) not to be either anachronistic, nor diachronistic in some of assertions on this subject.

the often accepted ancient tartan for the Johnstone clan (from the regions Borders and Aberdeenshire) dates back as far as 1063 – it is somewhat plain looking by modern standards. the 19th cent. version is more colourful. now what precisely it looked like that long ago is certainly subject to dispute – there are no drawings or written descriptions. even the so-called “ancient” tartans available today may not accurately represent much older tartans in some/many cases.

[note:; Johnstone is pronounced ‘jawnson’ by the Scotch and some who emmigrated to the US were given more “anglicized” spellings, viz. Johnson – though not all Johnson’s are of Scottish descent.]

bottom line, perhaps, IMHO, is the modern, so-called scholarly, view of tartans ignores much ancient evidence & avoids certain logical dilemmas their conclusions produce, and the traditional view also blindly chooses to ignore certain facts regarding their clan tartans. the truth lies somewhere in between.

this is all i’ll write on this matter.

[J R]

.

[shannon stoney]

So if the belted great kilt or plaidie came into existence after 1600, that would mean that the movie Brave Heart was full of shit to show William Wallace and his friends wearing them.

I still think that I as a weaver and spinner would not like to make the same tartan pattern over and over. It’s fun to design them new each time, based on what you have on hand. I use natural dyes too and there’s no limit to the colors you can get with them, by carding together fleece that is dyed in different basic colors. Surely highland women didn’t rigidly weave the same tartan over and over again their whole lives.

[Eve Baker]

This is a late reply but hopefully still helpful. I always hike with a rayon sarong as my “luxury” weight. It does at least triple service, if not more: 1–it’s great ventilation when I’m tired of wearing shorts in hot weather, easier to pee standing up in (though the right shorts work as well, the stretchy type); easy to sit in streams in for cooling off purposes (when in a populated area)–easy to strip off quickly and then use as towel in unpopulated area; has a certain “romantic running through woods in frock” appeal–esp. considering the variety of patterns and colors available–my favorite was a blue/white gecko number that made it all the way through the AT 2. works as a second blanket, a pillow, a towel, a tablecloth and, of course, the ever important town dress (as a sarong, no bra or underwear is needed, and it accessorizes well with shoes or bare feet). I’ve tried cotton, but rayon or a rayon blend seems to wear the best and dry the quickest. I pick up a new sarong every long hike, but the old ones are still hanging in strong.

[David Lewis]

That macab skirt looks pretty cool. I’d wear that. Why the hell not. Who cares what you’re wearing on trail? Function is the only conern on trail. I think in town, I’d doff some shorts or use the snap thing. But I say, if it keeps you cool on the trail… why not? And it would certainly make “#2” a lot easier… as well as deep water stream crossings. I share Paul’s concern about bugs and ticks tho’. That would be the major drawback. Also, chaffing could be a problem for some people.

[Steve Smith]

I’m an enlightened bloke. I’ve worn a long, lightweight skirt on daytrips, but not on a long hike. The main problem is going off the trail, where it catches on undergrowth. Brambles, especially, made me gather it up and proceed very carefully! Climbing through a barbed fence was very tricky. But if you stay on the trail, a long skirt is great – it keeps the sunburn away, and keeps you well ventilated and cool – much more so than shorts.

I like the idea of a shorter skirt like the breechcloth. I think a lot of men would benefit from something like that, to stay cool and fresh – more so than women do – but the culture shock prevents them from trying it.

In the uk (not so much the usa, I’ve been told, because an armed society is a polite society etc) there is also the problem of yobbery/rednecks – and being physically attacked for wearing a skirt. That happened a few times to me during my experiment; that and my colleagues fears of it happening, is what eventually made me stop wearing them. But in principle they’re great. If I visit the usa I might try it again.

[John Davis]

Those same yobs would probably buy you a pint if you wore a traditional kilt and sporran.

[David Laurie]

Bugs and Ticks ?
I would imagine the problem would be the same whether you wore skirts or shorts or went naked..
If you sweat less, and hence smelt less, in either skirts or shorts, in comparison to wearing long pants/trousers/leggings – then attracting many insects should be less – rather then more – of an issue…
Chafing?
I think that would be less of a problem in skirts than it would be in shorts or pants.

And others above have pointed out some of the other benefits of skirts/sarongs/kilts, over shorts/pants/longs:
* cooler and better ventilation;
* more comfortable;
* more convenient to relieve yourself, even moreso for women…
* Plus: a skirt probably weighs at least a couple of ounces less – if not more – than the equivalent pair of shorts (and skirts often seem to be made from a lighter weight material still – knocking even more weight off your kit..).

Skirts are also more practical for men for the same reasons.
Mini-skirts should always be considered as a suitable option to shorts, especially when prickly waist high scrub isn't an issue ( I probably encounter those conditions on less than 10% of my trips).
And the weather around this region (:Hunter Valley/Central Coast of NSW, Australia..) is probably more suited to shorter and cooler garments more than about 3/4 of the time, anyway…

I'm happy and willing to wear skirts on the majority of those walks when and where I have to wear something..
It only seems to be a few ( narrow minded? ) hangups that would stop more people from considering these obvious benefits.

And now, another choice : after going through some earlier entries on this topic, I came across posts on "breechclouts" and "breechcloths" from a year or two back – might have to try that as well…
But one further modification would be to use a longer piece of cloth – maybe around 75" – 80" long, knotting it around the waist first to provide the 'belt', placing the knot in the middle of your back, and then pulling the cloth through your legs and up and under at the front, and draping it down (as a narrow and adjustable 'skirt' ..) at the front..
[ This could provide extra degrees of freedom, cooling, and maybe 'security' and 'modesty (?), over a simple sarong or plain skirt – especially in hot weather? ].

[Trisha Towanda]

I see this is an old thread but I'm going to comment anyway. I have hiked the PCT twice in a skirt. I will always choose to wear a skirt when I can. Here are the reasons:
1) I can pee without dropping my pants or squatting (especially if I have a "pinky")

2) I can easily add or subtract tights or rain pants in complete modesty.

3) Hygiene is dramatically improved.

4) Nothing is pulling on my crotch or chafing my thighs while I walk.

5) Extraordinarily ultralight.

What more could you ask for? Oh, a pinky. A plastic funnel that is shaped to accommodate female anatomy so that you can pee standing up. The true equalizer.

[Author]

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