Trail Runners and Snow

[Justin Baker]

That is the most obvious issue, however my hydroskins are xl (the largest they had at REI). Shoes were plenty roomy as well.
I wasn't wearing gaiters and had snow pouring into my shoes and I was wearing shoes with 3mm soles, but that still doesn't explain why I was noticeably warmer after taking the neoprene socks off. It was like having metal on my feet, just conducting the heat away. I might give neoprene another try, but for now it's neoprene for water and goretex socks for snow.

[W I S N E R !]

Neoprene is weird.
Adan was experiencing a similar issue yesterday.
He started the hike with nothing but a thick wool sock on one foot and a hydroskin over wool on the other. He said the foot with only the wool was warmer. He swore the neoprene wasn't too tight. He did switch to two hydroskins over wool for the last 2/3 of the hike. He felt this system worked well too. It struck me he might of been a little warmer than me, but his wool socks were thicker.

[Andrew F]

Here's my theory…

The neoprene socks work like a wetsuit, by trapping a layer of water which is warmed by your feet. They prevent cold water from flushing in and out of your socks quickly like when you step into ankle-deep snowmelt with only wool socks. They work extremely well at keeping your feet warmer when you are in and out of a lot of cold water. However, when you step into cold dry snow that layer of water is now a liability and it increases the conductive heat transfer through your socks to a much higher level than if you just had a semi-wet wool sock on. With just a wool sock and no neoprene the water is quickly pumped out of your shoe as you walk. I suspect this is why your feet got so cold Justin, in conjunction with low overall body temps.

While it is certainly not always possible especially if you are constantly alternating between snow and ice-cold water, I will often stop quickly, pull off my shoes and neoprene socks, and squeeze the water out, which keeps your feet much warmer in the dry snow. You can squeeze your wool liner socks out pretty effectively without taking them off by just squeezing your feet. THat being said, I've done the whole water-snow-water-snow thing over and over again all day and have never had excessively cold feet even when it's in the 20's outside, but I am pretty careful about regulating my physical output to keep warm. Sometimes the best thing to do is increase your metabolic output by hiking faster and bring your heart rate up for a few minutes to warm yourself back up if you are in a tough situation.

Northwestern Yosemite. This went on for 12 hours.

[BlackHatGuy]

"Northwestern Yosemite. This went on for 12 hours."

Those are some pretty short waterskis…..

[Justin Baker]

Thanks Andrew, that makes a lot of sense. When I was hiking through the snow it was around freezing and the snow was pretty fresh and not very wet, so I can see how I was conducting heat away into the snow.

[Rex Sanders]

Don't condemn all neoprene socks because Hydroskins aren't warm enough. Did you really expect a miracle from 0.5 mm of insulation?

I routinely wear 3 mm NRS neoprene socks without liners or oversocks, for rafting in snow melt rivers, where 33 F water flushes in and out regularly because they aren't sealed. They work OK if the rest of me is warm.

I wouldn't even think of using Hydroskins for hiking in snow. I would try thicker neoprene, or multiple layers of neoprene if they don't cut off circulation. You'll need bigger shoes.

My experiences with layering wool and neoprene socks were cold, soggy messes.

— Rex

[Greg Mihalik]

"Don't condemn all neoprene socks because Hydroskins aren't warm enough. Did you really expect a miracle from 0.5 mm of insulation?"

+1

I don't wear Hydroskins for insulation.
I wear them to keep my sock dry.
Way more durable than gortex.

[Elisa Umpierre]

I plan on doing a thru-hike of the Superior Hiking Trail to begin in early May. The snowpack here in MN on this very near record setting cold winter is currently about 55+" in northern MN. I can expect snow-covered trails over the first week or two of my hike. Now I'm in the process of deciding which shoe/sock combo to go with.

Last April while snowboarding I shattered the bottom of my right tibia and was told epic hikes would never again be part of my life. Well, I'm doing great, but I'm aware that I'll need to protect my tibia from further impact injury on the trail. For this reason I've been training in the most comfortable, cushiest, wide-base pair of trail shoes I could find – the Hoka One-One Stinson trail shoe. All I can say is, WOW!

Wearing the Hokas, so far I've hiked on snowy trails where my feet were sinking on average about 3"-4" each step in actual air temps of 3 degrees farenheight. For socks I was wearing a mid=weight smartwool-variety with neoprene over socks. My feet didn't feel ONE BIT cold or wet, but when I removed my shoes and socks I saw my feet were, in fact, wet. I do have Keen mid-height Targhee II waterproof boots that I could wear, but I would be sacrificing the extreme amount of cushion found in the Hokas and waking up to wet boots every morning for sure.

Maybe there's really no great answer here. I think I'll try replacing the neoprene layer with a Goretex sock. Time and miles on the trail will tell, I guess.

[BlackHatGuy]

Are you wearing microspikes on your Hokas, or just the Hokas alone?

[Elisa Umpierre]

Hokas alone. I wasn't on ice, just snow. There was no issue with slipping at all.

[BlackHatGuy]

I'm trying out a system in Michigan in a couple of days, but it needs microspikes.

I'll be wearing: thin sock, thicker insulating sock, trail runners, 40 Below neoprene booties, and then tyvek booties on top, with microspikes over it all. Even on snow the tyvek booties would slip too much, so the microspikes are kinda necessary.

If I remember, I'll let you know how it turns out if you're interested.

[Doug Wolfe]

Micro spikes = false sence of security . They are good for maybe a nice stroll around the block. Just my 2c
Find some light crampons

[Anonymous]

"Micro spikes = false sence of security . They are good for maybe a nice stroll around the block. Just my 2c"

I'd say they're good for a lot more than that, but you do need to pay close attention to slope angle and surface you are walking on. If you don't you are most definitely vulnerable to a false sense of security that many not end well for you. I would definitely recommend against using them on hard ice at anything more that a VERY slight angle or for traversing on hard packed or styro foam snow at much more than, say 15-20 degrees. The spikes are so short that it is very easy for shear forces to pop them out of the snow and send you for a ride. Snow balling up under them can also lift the spikes up enough for you to lose traction. I use them all the time on fairly steep slopes in the Cascades, but I watch conditions very carefully, and have learned their limitations. Just pay attention to conditions and you'll be probably do fine. They're like any other tool; know when and how to use them, AND when not to use them.

[Doug Wolfe]

Well ok I'll agree they work fine on slight slope but as said best for a walk around the block. If your going to be anywhere where the conditions are ever changing they are unreliable. I'm sure if your really a gram counter you could probably find a pair of crampons that come close.
Ultra light is ok but when it come to old man winter be ready cause he could care less about your hide.
We should set a winter standard of crampons, white gas and sensible tent for shoulder season.
Because when you slip and go for a ride and really hurt yourself and now you buddy has to make a phone call and have a SAR team come out to get ya out. Not to mention the inconvenience you'd cause em having to drop what ever they are doing to help yet another unprepared person. I'm not trying to blow this guys thread to hll
But winter is not time to play Russian roulette play the gram counting game in the warmer months. Once again this is just my opinion

[Brian Lewis]

"Neoprene is weird."

Agreed, or at least in my somewhat limited experience. I've used neoprene socks a number of times in different conditions. Sometimes they seem just fantastic, but I've had a couple of experiences where I wasn't nearly as warm as I thought I would be (or needed to be) in them. I just really don't know why, and tend to avoid them now unless I'm doing some intentional creek/river walking. In which case I'd get fairly beefy ones.

Goretex socks with wool socks inside, however, are a pretty reliable combination for me; I've used these (and of course just the wool socks alone) quite a bit, and am confident what I can do.

So the "neoprene is weird" comment resonates well with my personal experiences.

On the topic of microspikes — I've also used these a great deal, and agree with the person that said that you can do a whole lot with them. They're excellent, but of course you have to keep in mind that they're not a full-on crampon. With wisdom and experience at what they can and can't do for you, I find them to be very worth bringing along in a pretty wide range of conditions.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Doug

It's the Tyvek booties which are the real weak point imho. If you left the soles of the joggers fully exposed, with micro-spikes, I reckon you might do a whole lot better.

Yeah, we have worn joggers in the snow. There wasn't much choice actually …

Cheers

[BlackHatGuy]

"Hi Doug"

Hi Roger!

"It's the Tyvek booties which are the real weak point imho. If you left the soles of the joggers fully exposed, with micro-spikes, I reckon you might do a whole lot better."

The Tyvek booties are only to keep the 40 Below neoprene outer boots dry. The 40 Belows aren't really made for walking on their own, from my understanding.

"Yeah, we have worn joggers in the snow. There wasn't much choice actually …"

Yeah, I've done it a number of times as well, and always had pretty cold feet, especially toward the end of the day when they were pretty much frozen (with goretex socks and warm insulating socks on). I always have trouble with cold feet, though, so I'm trying the 40 Below overboots on this trek.

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