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SUL and UL: Seeking Converts


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  • #1393873
    Ken Helwig
    BPL Member

    @kennyhel77

    Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA

    One thing that I came across that I thought was cool. My local Sierra Club chapter in San Jose has a lightweight backpacking class led by Steve Sargeant. The class met for 4 classes then a trip in the Bay Area for an overnighter. I went to the first class but ended up bowing out due to the material being covered was everything that I was overly familiar with. Everyone else in the class were traditional hikers that employ 35-50 lbs on their backs. In hindsight, I wonder how many changed over to the darkside? It seemed to be a great class and Steve is doing a great service to show others how to do it.

    #1393875
    Edwin Lamberth
    BPL Member

    @alfisher

    I plead guilty to being one of those on the "decision continuum," mentioned above. I am by no means SUL, but am working my way toward UL – depending, I suppose, on what weights you call UL, SUL, etc. When I shave 20lbs off my back just through buying new gear and reading the stuff on this website, I will at least consider myself UL. I can get my skin out weight between 25-30lbs for 5 nights, which is a big step for me.

    Nevertheless, I am by no means SUL and purposefully didn't buy the gear for that. It was just too much of a leap. I am not to the point of tarps and SUL packs, and I don't use down at all and never will due to the wet conditions I hike in and allergies. Maybe one day, I'll purchase all cocoon stuff, a bivy, a tarp, and tiny pack, all of which will cost me plenty. (Price is one of the biggest factors that people don't go down the UL or SUL road, I think.)

    Until then I will happily continue down the "decision continuum." Who knows where it will lead me. One thing for sure, it sure is fun!

    [Edit]

    I forgot to mention one important thing. The only reason I changed and bought all new stuff is because of a friend. He embarrassed me two years ago on the trail with his GG Vapor Trail pack and other light gear while I tried to lug twice as much as he did. My point is that word of mouth and sharing techniques with people is what will get them to change.

    #1393876
    Heather Pisani-Kristl
    Member

    @p-k

    Locale: San Diego

    I had never backpacked before, never knew anyone who did, never hiked anything more than a 9-mile nature loop, when I started recently. I knew that I needed to go very LW (not under 10 lbs. base weight yet) and got all my info from books/the web, but demos or rental gear would have been very useful. It's tough to decide what you need by looking at pix on the Internet.

    Have to share this one: we were in EMS last weekend, looking for a new, lighter pack for my husband, whose skin-out packing list tops out around 30 lbs. and will eventually go down (though he doesn't yet believe it will). The salesperson extolled the virtues of a 5-pound pack, until I pointed to the weight on the tag and asked my husband if he really wanted to go there again. The salesperson said that his own pack actually weighs 7 lbs. – so you know where he was coming from, and why newbies don't start out UL or even LW.

    #1393880
    kevin davidson
    Member

    @kdesign

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson

    Which might point out the need for clinics specifically aimed at the workers and management of brick and mortar outdoor stores to show the "Light" side.

    Brett's idea of demoing UL products at stores is a good one—-either by the Cottage manufacturer or by the dedicated user ( you get brownie or mitzvah points for the latter but maybe one could work out a deal… Ron, I'll demo your gear—can I get some demos :-) ? )

    #1393881
    Adam Rothermich
    BPL Member

    @aroth87

    Locale: Missouri Ozarks

    We should maybe all start spending the weekends we aren't hiking hanging out in/near gear outfitter stores. When we see someone checking out packs or sleeping bags that are way (weigh :)) too heavy start a conversation about UL backpacking. Then maybe steer them towards lighter alternatives the store has (the store may get angry if you tell them to look at stuff online and drive their potential customers away). Maybe even do a little impromptu seminar on UL backpacking if there is a large enough group gathered. Better yet, let the employees in on UL. Many of them are probably young people working through school that don't have the experience that you do or maybe haven't been exposed to UL. If the store will allow, do a seminar/training session with the employees regarding UL gear and techniques.

    I'm reminded of an xkcd comic from a few weeks back. A guy is talking to a Best Buy employee who recommends he buy an anti-virus program. The guy says, "Oh, I wouldn't need that. I use Linux!" Then proceeds to backflip onto a motorcycle and peel out. I feel that way sometimes when I'm at an outfitter. They recommend me something and I think, "I don't need that. I'm a UL backpacker!" I'm also a Linux user. Yes, I'm one of those…

    Adam
    The Linux using, UL backpacker

    #1393882
    kevin davidson
    Member

    @kdesign

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson

    I can see it now—- UL evangelists systematically flooding retail stores, pigeonholing people—-we may yet get a rep for being a cult! :-D

    "Lighties"? "Ultristas" ? "Lightweights"? "Fruitbats"? We need a good culty monniker.

    Comandante Sub-Zero — UL dual booting windows/mac user :-)>

    #1393889
    Jessen Jacobsen
    BPL Member

    @jessenj

    Locale: Boulder

    Not all local outfitter employees are blind to the "light". When I bought my first set of gear, I was lucky enough to be helped out by an employee who had hiked the AT and told me all about going Lightweight. He is the one who recommended me a Hennessey Hammock, which is one of the reasons I have never owned a tent. I walked out of the store that day with a base weight of 15lbs, which I think is pretty good for a first timer.

    Now I am a dedicated UL backpacker who has dabbled in SUL. I have tried to preach the good news, but one thing I have found is that most backpackers are a stubborn and conservative lot who are afraid of change. I even met a thruhiker on the AT a few weeks ago that refused to buy anything that wasn't made by L.L. Bean and was openly critical of the ultralight style. But I wanted to share his fire at camp so I kept my mouth shut. :D

    My main hiking partner too, who has gone with me on 90% of my trips and is an eagle scout, has refused to try going ultralight. Even when he bought all new gear this spring, I could only get him to go lightweight. His main argument is that he would lose comfort in sleeping and at camp. I guess this is where we differ, because I want comfort while hiking. But I still think that my friend is just too high maintanence. :)

    I went UL without ever seeing another ultralighter in person or talking to one. I got it all through the internet. And when I think about an UL gear maker coming to a trailhead or giving a clinic, I think that I would be more interested as an ULer than someone who was already a traditional backpacker.

    #1393893
    john flanagan
    Member

    @jackfl

    Locale: New England

    Too funny! Love the image Adam! It's interesting to me that I frequently can no longer find gear that's of interest in bricks and morter stores anymore – it almost all seems obscenely heavy / overbuilt. For what its worth, here are some ramdon thoughts…

    Don't try for SUL. You can easily hit an UL pack weight without resorting to arcane methods – start where the people are.

    Don't write off beginners. Frankly I don't employ any techniques as a UL hiker that I didn't use before the conversion. Same routine, same basic set of skills and knowledge. Go ahead and market to them.

    Don't write off the wine and cheese crowd – make the case that their 6 mile day will be much more enjoyable with a lighter pack. Any pack that will carry a bear cannister will carry a box of wine :~P

    Don't write off the mass market. With all due respect to the cottage industry, one barrier to entry is the fact that your stuff is hard to find, often on backorder, and marketed to an elite (experienced / athletic) audience. Ron, Team MLD on the old web stands as an example.

    I get that scaling manufacturing to sales is necessary for survival…but it makes it harder for beginners who rely more on the tactile experience of touch and feel to choose gear. So I agree with the ideas of "clinic sales staff"…AND there needs to be product available to sell. I think that the big names that are building "UL" gear that isn't are your friends (REI, Mountain Hardware, etc.) in that they're beginning to state that you don't need a 7 pound pack for an overnight.

    Focus marketing on:
    Tarptents (the concept, not the brand) – enclosed, floored shelters with bug nets) rather than SUL tarps. It seems to me that using a tarp is a big step forward in the evolution of a backpacker – help people take it one step at a time

    Lighter packs – comfortable, durable for light loads, etc. Go-lite, Granite Gear, and ULA seem to lead here in lowering the psychological barriers to entry.

    Other thoughts
    Who are you selling to? Ron, as you describe it, I picture that untapped market as interested in comfort, more into enjoying a modest experience than an athletic event, somewhat unsure of their skills, somewhat intimidated by backpacking and it's "risks" They're susceptible to the trad messages of "bombproof is safe," "bring extra everything for comfort," etc. You gotta counter those messages with "UL is as safe as ultraheavy – in fact, safer for your joints." "UL gear is durable and doesn't need pampering…just a modicum of awareness." "UL is comfortable – hiking is more fun and you camping experience is not an endurance experience or a battle of wits to stay warm and dry."

    #1393921
    Denis Hazlewood
    BPL Member

    @redleader

    Locale: Northern California

    Comandante,

    I vote for Fruitbat.

    (8-)

    #1393922
    Aaron Sorensen
    BPL Member

    @awsorensen

    Locale: South of Forester Pass

    Hey Kevin,
    A lot of other backpacking forum websites do view us as being in a SUL cult.

    I still believe that most people that post at this sight are more dedicated towards L/W than being truly U/L.
    There are very few of us that are gram weenies. I'm more of a 1/10 of an ounce weenie, but when talking about saving an ounce on this site, I still get fringed upon.

    If we can't even get our own cult to truly convert to the dark-side how do we expect the masses to do the same.

    If everybody here were truly U/L and we all moved to the direction of helping others do the same, we could really get some where. For now I am just a part of this demonic cult that sleeps on a 1/4" pad and takes a quilt out that weighs under a pound in sub freezing temperatures.

    #1393923
    kevin davidson
    Member

    @kdesign

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson

    Aaron, I know some view UL/SUL practitioners as a "cult". I think some of the posters above have some great ideas about helping to allay this perspective –even if some of us do act as if we are members of some inner cabal:-)>.

    Combinations of a soft-pedalled personal "evangelism" along side of harder core promotion of LW/UL/SUL philosophies and equipment through the media and winning over the retailers as is mentioned by various posters above is the best bet—-and it will take time. The multi-pronged approach. I still think that a UL trade association would further manufacturer and consumer alike.

    Personally, I'm happy to just get some of my hiking (and climbing and skiing) buddies to shed some pounds—-so they can keep up with me!

    #1393934
    Sean Perry
    Member

    @shaleh

    Locale: SF Bay Area

    As a relatively recent member of this site let me give you my observations.

    I like the experience of having a tent. Weather can change way too often to trust a simple tarp. I know that is heresy but that is my comfort level. We as a group need to reach a point where we do not instantly judge someone because they happen to like a tent or a full sleeping pad. I like to trim weight whenever possible so I have room for the luxuries like my Big Agnes bag and pad (42 + 24 ounces).

    There were complaints made about people buying their way to the top of Everest. Here we have people buying Cuben fibre to make stuff sacks to save 3 ounces. I fully understand that saving an ounce in 16 places yields a pound of savings, but there is also a lot of diminishing returns type conversations here. Gram weenies simply come off as people with too much time and money on their hands. Similar issue in many sports these days (I also bicycle, but my bike is not the lightest either). I am not too gifted with a hammer or saw but I also do not want to spend $400 on something that I could get for $150 just because it weighs 6 or 8 ounces less.

    People also feel funny walking around in trash bag ponchos. While the backcountry should not be a fashion show people do like the comfort of well made gear. We need to help find the balance between homemade (alcohol stoves for instance) and hobo gear.

    Food is important to people. Let them carry a pot (or two) and a frying pan. Help them choose light weight ones that are usable. Suggesting that we all cook in our mugs is a little silly.

    That segues nicely into the next issue. (S)ULers seem to be solitaries. Many people like to camp in groups of 3, 4 or more. Should everyone pull out their own stove, pot, and food? That just seems silly. But there is little in the way if light weight group gear. A tent split over 3 people really need not weigh much. Again, we need to focus on real world experiences (which is why we like to hike in the first place).

    #1393935
    Sean Perry
    Member

    @shaleh

    Locale: SF Bay Area

    executive summary:
    * have stock on hand
    * help people touch and experiment with it
    * control costs and explain where the extra money is going

    Details:
    I want to touch gear. How does it feel, how well are the seams made, etc. Simple as that. Get some businesses to have at least a sample of your gear even if to buy something they have to order it. Maybe find someone who wants to rent some if it out. Here in the San Francisco area there ought to be SOMEONE willing to rent out quality adventure gear. Once a few more people have tried it and hopefully liked it the orders should start flowing.

    I have no problem spending a little more to work with the smaller people. However, most of the US has been brainwashed by the like of Walmart or Kmart. Why spend $50 when I can get it for $15? It is REALLY hard to convince people to spend more for hand made goods. Even harder when these goods may actually be less durable due to the materials chosen.
    In this day many people like the idea of "made in the US" or "made in $YOUR_HOME_COUNTRY". Push it. Explain that you employ 3 grand mothers, two aunts and and a bunch of college kids. Talk about your small shop and the joys of being a small business. You want (and need) to charge boutique prices? Then time for the marketing campaign.

    While I do not mind spending some extra $$$ for good gear, spending twice or more just to save 6 or 8 ounces is silly (to me).

    We have all held a standard item and a SUL item. That shock of "wow same functionality but feels like air" really can get people. But usually the next thingto hit them is sticker shock. Why is a $70 Ti pot "better" than a $25 Al pot? Especially if the user intends to do something other than boil water. Growing up we had generic cereal in the house. Tasted "mostly" like the name brand equivalent but cost a lot less. This is the norm in the US, probably elsewhere. Cottage shops needs to explain why their gear is better. "We use Ti and they use Al" is really not enough.

    Personally, I love REI. Decent sales staff, usually decent selection and a great try it and return it policy. No more buyers remorse or "it felt good for the first hour". I know they are just another big box. But they have stock and I can touch it and experiment. Mail order just doesn't work for me or many people I know. Especially with something like a tent where you have to pitch it to test it out but most businesses won't accept a used tent for return. Same goes for packs. You really don't know a pack until you wore it full of gear for a day or two.

    #1393938
    Ken Helwig
    BPL Member

    @kennyhel77

    Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA

    Great ideas Sean. Oh and looking at your location you have written San Francisco Bay Area. That has changed to San Jose/San Francisco/Oakland Bay Area last year. Us San Joseans have an inferiority complex.

    (disclaimer..Just giving you a hard time [wink])

    #1393940
    Aaron Sorensen
    BPL Member

    @awsorensen

    Locale: South of Forester Pass

    Sean,
    You're hitting the nail on the head.
    Going SUL is like buying a 15 lb bike or even worse trying to get your 30 lb bike down to 15.
    You also will not be able to ride that bike on every road that 30 ld'er can, but boy oh boy is that 15 lb bike nice.

    On another note, when I walk into REI, it's mainly for a pair of shoes or socks or something that doesn't have to do with hiking. As far as U/L and REI have in common is very select.
    1 or 2 sleeping bags, (800+ fill) and even the REI Flash pack is discontinued???
    I would be very hard pressed to be able to buy all of my gear at REI and have it fit the U/L category.

    If we're really going to hit the masses, the big wigs need to step up to the plate.

    Ron, this would take away a lot of buisness to cottage makers if this happened. Probably not what you want.

    #1393941
    Sean Perry
    Member

    @shaleh

    Locale: SF Bay Area

    In many other industries the big players buy / partner with the innovative small players. Someone like MLD could become a brand under say the Mountain Hardwear umbrella (just naming names for the sake of conversation).

    Yes, big players can and will mow the small ones down. But small players can and will lead innovation. This is good for the industry long term and can be good for the companies involved. This requires some business skill however.

    #1393945
    Ken Helwig
    BPL Member

    @kennyhel77

    Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA

    Aaron you're soooooo right about REI. Packs, sleeping bags, Tarps? etc are not going to be found there. Shoes and socks and such will. In Santa Cruz which is down the road from where I live is Down Works and they cater to the lightweight crowd. Great place with great customer service. The owner was one of the guys that started Osprey.

    On a side note. Do any of us get weird looks in REI. I weigh things and when I am shopping someone will ask if I need help. I then point out that I am looking for such and such of a product and This and that are wayyyyy tooooo heavy. Conversation then heads towards "what? Your pack weighs how much for a week?" Happens all of the time!

    #1393951
    Ross Novak
    Member

    @aurator

    What is going on here??? More UL and SUL interest! Anyone try to buy a tarp tent lately or an UL pack? Does having to put your name on a list to get the next run of goodies sound familliar? Stop encouraging people now before it is too late.

    #1393963
    Mark Verber
    BPL Member

    @verber

    Locale: San Francisco Bay Area

    I agree REI is great. I have been slowly working on my local stores to get more light and ultralight options. You need to be the scale of REI to be able to afford there no questions asked return policy… but even they have not been very willing to consider renting lighter items… they see what abuse their normal gear takes.

    If I was running a for profit (or even a break even business) on a small scale I would have second and third thoughts about renting ultralight gear. In the past I helped run loaning programs with overbuilt / "bulletproof" items. Things which had lasted me 20 years of regular use were destroyed in a couple of years. My "loaner" kit shows it's age more quickly than the items I personally take on most trips. Better might be purchase with the option to return with a "restocking fee" based on the wear to the item.

    As to a place in the bay area to touch things… Downworks in Santa Cruz. Nick and Shelly are great and their selection is carefully sellected: Montbell, GoLite, Granite Gear, Osprey,ID, WM, etc. Best place for ultralight folks in in greater bay area.

    #1393974
    Sean Perry
    Member

    @shaleh

    Locale: SF Bay Area

    My thought was the rented items could be sold at the end of the season (maybe two seasons).

    As for Down Works they are on my list but Santa Cruz might as well be in another state. Getting over the hill and back during the week is impossible.

    #1393981
    Joe Clement
    BPL Member

    @skinewmexico

    Locale: Southwest

    I know this is heresy, but as I've started going lighter, I've been pretty shocked by what it can cost. So I would say make it cheaper, or at least cost competitive. It's like green products…..if they're not cost competitive, only the true believers buy, and you already have their business.

    The other way……….convert the youth. Get them while they're young. And face it, there is only one large youth organization in America promoting a backpacking lifestyle, unless I've missed something. Figure out a way to make killer deals to Scouts, like Alps does. Put together a cheap DVD that shows 20 ways to lighten your load, prominently featuring your products, that can be downloaded online.

    #1393989
    Tim Cheek
    BPL Member

    @hikerfan4sure

    You have to deal with the fear of bad weather and the concern that you will not be comfortable or, in a worst case, unsafe. These are legitimate concerns. There is real merit in being prepared for contingencies. Sometimes a tarp isn't enough.

    I would say the solo hiker who has been off trail where the weather can get nasty in a hurry, and has had an "epic" or two may be a harder "sale" than the hiker who has spent their time on trunk trails in a group setting lumping a big load to campsites from which they can only day hike.

    Either one would benefit from lightening their load. The former can carry more food and be out longer, and the latter won't feel like his load has limited him to where he can go. But, the former has too many experiences to be converted by the promise of fewer ounces.

    I would pick a trip where or when the weather is virtually guaranteed to be gentle. Also, a trip that is centered on hiking rather than camping. The benefits of lightening up can best be experienced in that "safe" environment.

    Having experienced it without calamity opens the mind to a different approach for more "hostile" weather. For example, I experienced what I already knew hypothetically: with a lighter pack I can use lighter footwear. Next, came the hypothetical application: if I'm surprised by lightning I can get to safer ground much faster. Then, the revelation and irony: the lighter I am the safer and more comfortable I can be even when I am in "hostile" weather.

    My "hike" along the continuum has been slow because of my experience. I have used confidence-builder trips to become comfortable.

    #1393998
    Brett .
    Member

    @brett1234

    Locale: CA

    Sean,
    Great points, and I too spend most my outdoor budget at REI, simply because of their return policy.

    And you said "While I do not mind spending some extra $$$ for good gear, spending twice or more just to save 6 or 8 ounces is silly (to me)." But I honestly think you will get there some day; My current threshold to 'buy', the tipping point if you will, is if the new item is less than half the weight of the old item while meeting all the same performance requirements; and I've spent double to save 50grams on a GPS, a pot, etc.. always sell the old stuff.
    Not just lighter, better and lighter, and multi-purpose (a use outside hiking)

    #1394001
    mark cole
    BPL Member

    @marklivia

    I gotta say that this is pure horsesh*t. You can go UL (6-7 lb baseweight) just as cheaply as "normal" gear. What's the cost difference between Aqua Mira and some fancy filter? A 5 to 16 oz. pack to a Dana Terraplane? A 16 oz. WM bag to a 24 oz. WM bag? A Golite poncho tarp to a (make that ANY) tent? A pair of trailrunners to hardcore hiking boots? A Nalgene bottle to a Platypus (or better yet, a Dr. Pepper bottle)? A .3 oz. Tinny stove to a cannister stove?
    I could go on and on. Yes Ti pots are more than aluminum. So don't buy Ti !! You can use a Hienikin can.
    You don't need Cuben fiber to go UL or even SUL. Just add up the cost of Andy Skurka's gear list. Totally normal.
    Ron's going for a fringe niche that wants the ultimate and is willing to spend for custom hand made in the USA stuff. There are those buyers- I'm one myself.
    End of rant.

    #1394007
    Adam Rothermich
    BPL Member

    @aroth87

    Locale: Missouri Ozarks

    I would lean to agree with Mark. In my progression towards lightness I've managed to keep the costs to a minimum. Being in college and only working a minimum wage job for very few hours a week doesn't afford one the luxury of buying WM bags or MLD tarps.
    I was able to buy a pair of used tarps, one sil the other spinn, off of a member of another forum. He also threw in a GG Spinnsheet, 6 stakes, guyline, and the patch material for the sil tarp. And I only had to spend $100. That $100 saved me either 3.2 lbs when I use the sil tarp or 3.6 lbs if I'm using the spinnaker tarp over my old tent.
    I also made my own down quilt. There is no way I could have afforded a Nunatak quilt so I made my own from the kit on thru-hiker. I spent $112 and saved over 2 lbs over my old sleeping bag.
    I made my own windshirt and insulated jacket using thru-hiker kits as well. Total cost for those was about $85 for both of them, but they were both gifts.
    I made a handful of alcohol stoves and use a modified Fosters can as a cook pot.
    I also just recently completed a homemade Speer-style hammock. Total cost was $12.88 using Wal-Mart ripstop nylon.
    The only item I still need to replace with a UL component is my pack. I'm using a 3 lbs MS Phantom and even with that, have a base weight of under 10 lbs. Replacing that with even a 1 lbs pack will put me in the 7-8 lbs base weight range. I have a whole lot of extra ripstop that may get formed into a pack so that weight reduction will be quite cheap as well.
    Yes, you can go out and buy all of the stuff that I took so much time and effort to create. However if you are on a budget and even the slightest bit creative you can easily outfit yourself with lots of custom made (sounds better than home-made ;)) gear for a lot less of an investment.

    Adam

    I guess to make this slightly on topic; I've been giving thought to volunteering at the local scout troop. This thread has made me consider it even more. It would also give me more excuses to go out. "Honey, I have to go, the Scouts need another adult so they can go hiking." :D

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