Bad experience with Jetboil

[David Ure]

So Mark did not use the Ti version as intended and claims, "there have been many many of the exact same failures from many users"

As asked before, how many documented failures? I see three on this thread.

[Mark]

Andy, Greg, Dave

I appreciate the need for clarification, hopefully my answer below helps.
I do have to say though that i find it very strange how people jump into a thread to defend a brand or company when they have shown absolutely no interest before, and the levels they go to defend a brand strikes me as very weird.
I would be grateful if you would declare your loyalties here, do you work for JB, sell JB products?

If not what possible reason could you have to attack my credibility and jump to the defence of a company you have no vested interests in?
Seems very very odd to me and a bit suspicious.

Do you guys even have Sol Ti's?
If not i'm not sure your opinions are relevant as i've clearly stated it's ONLY the Sol Ti product i have experienced problems with, as far as i know every other product in the JB range could be the best in it's class.
I will never find out though due to the extremely poor customer service i have experienced directly.
Have any of the JB defence league actually dealt with JB customer service, had something replaced?
Again if not then your opinions are not really relevant as you have no direct experience with either the product or the "customer service"

Very weird.
As i say i appreciate the opportunity to clarify my points and opinions, i just think some posters are defending a little bit too much.

To clarify on my part:
Those instructions were created on the 30th of March 2012 and edited on April the 9th 2012.
My cup failed on March 27th 2012, so those "new" instructions were of absolutely no use to me.

The previous instructions clearly stated
"DO NOT fry or cook foods with low moisture content. Use low flame…."

As even non watered down beans have a high moisture content i was using the systems as per the instructions.
The fact that JB later changed the instructions again leads me to believe they know full well there is a fundamental design flaw with the product.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Anyone know what happened to Ryan Jordan's Jetboil? See Ryan's Twitter post.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Andy Stow]

Mark,

I wondered how their instructions had changed, since the current ones are clearly marked "v4." No, I don't work for Jetboil, not do I own one, nor a competing product. I cook with white gas simply because I don't like disposable canisters. Looking at changing to alcohol.

I was not trying to attack you, but honestly wondering whether the product is sound as currently advertised: for boiling only. Someone made an implication earlier in the thread that a breeze could make one side too hot and fail the fins, but I find that unlikely considering that you can boil water in a leaf, or a paper cup, over a campfire.

I'd say that if you used it within the confines of the instructions included when you bought it, they should make it right, unless they actually managed to later communicate to you, "hey, oops, water only," at which point you should have been offered a choice of a refund, replacement with non-Ti version, or keep it and use it for water only.

[David Ure]

"I would be grateful if you would declare your loyalties here, do you work for JB, sell JB products?"

No.

"If not what possible reason could you have to attack my credibility and jump to the defence of a company you have no vested interests in?"

You are not being attacked. Like any investigation that requires a suitable level of due diligence, I see 3 issues on this thread where the item in question may have been used in a manner that is outside of JB's recommendation. If this is the case, then is this a design flaw or a user flaw? Was it a manufacturing defect specific to these three or a 'batch' that has now been rectified? Remember the NeoAir issues? The pad was redesigned.

"Do you guys even have Sol Ti's?"

Yes and have been using to boil water for the past 3 years. Not cook beans.

"Have any of the JB defence league actually dealt with JB customer service, had something replaced?"

No. Recommendation: if you continue to use terms like JetBoil Fanboys and JB Defence League, your credibility is suspect. What would you have those who use the Ti pot successfully to do? I would hope you would expect them to provide their own experience. Otherwise how can you determine that it is a design flaw?

We need to understand how many of these pots are failing. Is it 1 out of 5, 10, 100,000?

[David Ure]

Looks like he was frying bacon with a non-compatable pan….?

"was it a JB frying pan?"

Ryan Jordan: "nope, an MSR 9" pan on top of the @Jetboil adapter."

Jim, is this a design flaw to you?

[Mark]

"Mark,

I wondered how their instructions had changed, since the current ones are clearly marked "v4." No, I don't work for Jetboil, not do I own one, nor a competing product. I cook with white gas simply because I don't like disposable canisters. Looking at changing to alcohol.

I was not trying to attack you, but honestly wondering whether the product is sound as currently advertised: for boiling only. Someone made an implication earlier in the thread that a breeze could make one side too hot and fail the fins, but I find that unlikely considering that you can boil water in a leaf, or a paper cup, over a campfire.

I'd say that if you used it within the confines of the instructions included when you bought it, they should make it right, unless they actually managed to later communicate to you, "hey, oops, water only," at which point you should have been offered a choice of a refund, replacement with non-Ti version, or keep it and use it for water only."

Hi Andy,

Sorry, i reread my post and it came out angrier than i'd hoped when i was aiming for tongue in cheek.

In my defence it does tend to get a little tiring when the manf and op's keep telling you that it's not the products fault, yet you follow the instructions to a T, buy and use a product in good conscience.

I really do enjoy the convenience of gas cartridge stoves, not only do they allow me to boil quicker and cleaner, whenever i have asked park rangers they've told me meths burners are strictly forbidden but they wouldn't mind if i used a gas stove.
As most of the areas i walk are tinder dry here for most of the year that's a big plus for me.

Between the mega cheap Chinese gas burner and my Alcohol stoves and Ti cups i think i'm pretty sorted now though.
If it's damp out i do kinda like the simplicity of my meths burners.

[Mark]

""I would be grateful if you would declare your loyalties here, do you work for JB, sell JB products?"

No.

"If not what possible reason could you have to attack my credibility and jump to the defence of a company you have no vested interests in?"

You are not being attacked. Like any investigation that requires a suitable level of due diligence, I see 3 issues on this thread where the item in question may have been used in a manner that is outside of JB's recommendation. If this is the case, then is this a design flaw or a user flaw? Was it a manufacturing defect specific to these three or a 'batch' that has now been rectified? Remember the NeoAir issues? The pad was redesigned.

"Do you guys even have Sol Ti's?"

Yes and have been using to boil water for the past 3 years. Not cook beans.

"Have any of the JB defence league actually dealt with JB customer service, had something replaced?"

No. Recommendation: if you continue to use terms like JetBoil Fanboys and JB Defence League, your credibility is suspect. What would you have those who use the Ti pot successfully to do? I would hope you would expect them to provide their own experience. Otherwise how can you determine that it is a design flaw?

We need to understand how many of these pots are failing. Is it 1 out of 5, 10, 100,000?"

My problem is though Dave i don't know you, i don't know your experience or knowledge, so i don't really know why you should be investigating this.
I guess what i'm asking is, what gives you the authority to investigate this?

Even if your well versed in investigating this kind of thing, if your not connected to JB then there is nothing you can do to offer a solution.

Sorry if that comes across a little blunt, but that is what i am thinking.

Likewise, what use is it to anyone but JB to have numbers of these Sol Ti failures?
It's JB's job to amass this info NOT the end users.
Plus again even if it's proven many have failed, what good does that do the end user who ended up with a melted pot?

Without any any sarcasm here i really am truly happy that some of you good folks are getting good use out of your Sol Ti's.
They are a fairly expensive investment, so to read some of you have been using them for years really does make me happy.

I can't offer any real evidence as to why some are ok and others not.
Maybe the later type are better, maybe mine got knocked about being shipped half way around the world.
Certainly JB knew that their first generation of instructions would lead to failures so they changed them and categorically stated ONLY WATER.
There is a chance that if i only boiled water my Sol Ti might still be ok.
Problem i have there though is, if i knew beforehand i could only boil water with it, i would NOT have purchased it in the first place.

As i said in my response to Andy above, i apologise for my previous post as it came out reading as angry and sarcastic, my intention was to inject a little tongue in cheek to the thread, i failed.

[David Ure]

You are correct in that it is not my job to determine how many failures there have been. But Mark, you come out of the 'woodwork' and claim that "there have been many many of the exact same failures from many users" and then claim a design failure.

You make generalizations that can't be necessarily supported and therefore, can expect questions. How you take the questions is up to you.

Sorry about the baked beans, but why did you buy another Ti pot then?

[James holden]

if you want a jetboil simply …

– get the aluminum one … its 1-2 oz heavier, but you can cook beans or other fun stuff if you want … the majority of the failures are with the TI version … im not saying an aluminum jetboil will never fail, any stove can, but its not a major known issue and mountaineers have been using them for years since the original version

– buy from somewhere with an unlimited no questions asked warranty … like MEC if yr in canada

i personally think that in the pursuit of 1-2 oz jetboil has created a very niche product with limited applications and a headache for those everyday people who use it beyond boiling water ….

its really that simple

;)

[michael doyle]

I have had great luck with jetboil products and service.

For service I had an issue of the lid being a bit loose, called jetboil and they sent a replacement, simple and clean.

Mine has been used by myself and my Scouts. It went to Philmont twice as the only stove on one trek, with only the Scouts using it, boiled water day after day with no problem, using suprisingly little fuel. It was used as a stove with the large Phlmont pot, and also with the jetboil cup.

Of all the friends I have that have been using jetboils for the last several years I have heard of no complaints.

It works much better and cleaner for my use that the old white gas stove I had, better by far than an alchohol stove, better than the new wood burning stove I bought to play with (it is fun to use but messy).

My thoughts

[Mark]

"You are correct in that it is not my job to determine how many failures there have been. But Mark, you come out of the 'woodwork' and claim that "there have been many many of the exact same failures from many users" and then claim a design failure.

You make generalizations that can't be necessarily supported and therefore, can expect questions. How you take the questions is up to you.

Sorry about the baked beans, but why did you buy another Ti pot then?"

To me it makes absolutely no difference if it was just mine that failed or 99% of them.
Being a engineer i have daily experience in things failing, it happens.

The things that got to me are:
1/ As i've now been made aware JB have changed their instructions.
If i'd known i could only boil water beforehand i would not have purchased the Sol Ti

2/ The fact that JB knew there have been failures, yet refused to do anything about it

3/ The fact that JB were willing to accept the stove for examination until they found out i was in Europe, after which they washed their hands of it.

I purchased the 2nd cup as i figured it was just a one off, after reading other reports (some of which some seem to have failed when they were just boiling water) i lost confidence in the product.
Thought about selling it on, but i'm not confident the next owner won't have the same problem, so i can't in good conscience sell it on.

So it sits in the boot of the car the cup unused as a backup car stove.

[David Ure]

Mark, does the pot look different from the previous one? Are the fins differently shaped?

[Mark]

Dave,

My 2nd cup looks exactly the same as the first.

Using the link John posted
http://www.nielsenbrownoutdoors.com/2012/07/tale-of-2-jetboil-sol-tis.html

Both my cups are the earlier type

[David Ure]

Thanks for that link – I'll be looking at my cup later tonight.

[Hikin’ Jim]

Looks like he was frying bacon with a non-compatable pan….?

"was it a JB frying pan?"

Ryan Jordan: "nope, an MSR 9" pan on top of the @Jetboil adapter."

Jim, is this a design flaw to you?

Design flaw? Maybe not, but it's certainly a design limitation. One should be able to cook with a fry pan on a JB burner with the provided adapter. The Jetboil fry pan is 8" in diameter. Apparently Ryan's pan was 9". I wouldn't think that would make a dramatic difference. I do wonder if any grease spilled, and I wonder how long he was cooking for. If he were doing multiple courses of bacon, perhaps the heat built up too much. But spilled grease that caught fire and caused the orange ring to burn would be my first guess.

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

[Hikin’ Jim]

Just some general comments about Jetboil's instructions (quoted below) for the Ti versions:
A stove that can't be used to melt snow? Really? And water only? Not even soup? That seems very limiting to me. Just my opinion.

When I did my review of the Jetboil Sol (aluminium version), I compared the weights and came up with about a 1 ounce difference between the Al Sol and the Ti Sol. I just don't see a great advantage to the Ti version when you give up so much cooking utility and save only about an ounce — and at a substantial increase in cost. Note: Jetboil has made some changes to both the Al and Ti versions of the Sol since I did my review. My weights are probably a little off now, although they're probably still in the ballpark

HJ
Adventures In Stoving

http://shop.jetboil.com/files/sol-ti-sumo-ti-quickstart-v4.pdf

1) BOILING WATER: For fastest performance, use high heat
when boiling liquid water. Follow normal operating instructions.
Adding non-liquids (soup mix, oatmeal, dehydrated meal, etc.) to
water can result in damage to the cup and fins.
2) DO NOT USE TO MELT SNOW OR ICE: Do not use to
melt snow or ice as improper use may cause the cup to overheat
and fins may be damaged.
3) DO NOT COOK SOUPS OR OTHER FOODS: Sol® TI and
SUMO® TI are ideal for fast and fuel efficient water boiling only.
Do not use for cooking food to avoid potential damage to cooking
cup or FluxRing®.

[David Ure]

Okay, looked at my cup and I have the first version. Again, no issues. Knock on titanium.

[jrentas8137]

I burnt my sol ti up, admitedly, I wasn't watching it. I left it on with water, went to grab something in my pack…took WAY too long, fried my system because the water went dry. The heat had nowhere to go I imagine. This was the email I got (pretty straight forward, I think it is one of those everybody based emails tho) I didn't get a new cup but I bought a new one for $50 and she let me buy a frypan for discount too:

Hello,

Thank you for your inquiry about the Jetboil warranty process.

As the cup has become damaged it is important to discontinue use of the cup as it is no longer safe for use.

What we could do is issue you a return authorization number for you to send your system in for warranty evaluation.

If it is found to be covered under warranty then we will replace your cup and send it back to you free of charge. If it is found that the damage arose out of misuse (damage resulting from snow melting, cooking of any foods, placing the cup on the burner empty, running the cup dry etc.) then we will contact you to discuss replacement options and payment.

Understand that because the cup is no longer safe for use, once it is sent in to us then we will not be able to send this cup back to you as it poses a liability.

Please review our warranty.

http://www.jetboil.com/warranty .

Jetboil has a 1-year limited warranty. Should this product not function properly under normal use within 1 year of purchase, contact Jetboil or your local distributor for return process information. Jetboil alone will determine if the problem is due to a manufacturing flaw. If so, Jetboil will repair or replace the unit at its discretion and return it to you, free of charge.
This warranty does not cover any damage or malfunction arising from misuse, improper maintenance, negligence, normal wear and tear or accident. This warranty applies only to the original purchaser and proof of purchase is required.

EXCEPT AS PROVIDED HEREIN, THERE ARE NO OTHER WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.

JETBOIL SHALL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY CONSEQUENTIAL OR INCIDENTAL DAMAGES WHATSOEVER.

Modification of the product and/or using the product not in accordance with the instructions and recommended use will void the warranty and may be hazardous.
This warranty gives you specific legal rights. You may also have other rights that vary from state to state. Some states do not allow the exclusion or limitation of incidental or consequential damages, or limitation or exclusion of implied warranties, so the above exclusions or limitations may not apply to you.

For information about the Titanium models and water boiling only. http://shop.jetboil.com/index.php/sol-cooking-ti.html
http://shop.jetboil.com/files/sol-ti-sumo-ti-quickstart-v4.pdf

If you would like to continue with the warranty process, please provide us with your US mailing address, phone number, and full name to start the paperwork.

Christie Roberts
US Dealer Sales
Jetboil Inc
540 N Commercial St
Manchester NH 03101
603.518.1600

[Roger Caffin]

> Understand that because the cup is no longer safe for use, once it is sent in to
> us then we will not be able to send this cup back to you as it poses a liability.
I still say that is straight out theft. Well, it would be in Australia.

I guess they are trying to either cover their backsides or hide the evidence. I can understand that, but it is still theft in my book. Bad move on their part: provokes great customer outrage. Bad move.

Moving on from the immediate reaction, I am led to wonder just what is the claimed liability – to the owner. I have some Ti pots which we use all the time. How is the JB pot any different? I can't see it. But I would welcome comment from JB explaining this.

Cheers

[Bob Gross]

"I guess they are trying to either cover their backsides or hide the evidence. I can understand that, but it is still theft in my book. Bad move on their part: provokes great customer outrage. Bad move."

Agreed. They are somewhat covered in that the text of their warranty is very clear. It is pretty slimy, but that is what keeps the bills paid for the lawyers. Their argument would be that if the purchaser did not like the warranty, then they didn't have to purchase the product. Of course the purchaser never reads any fine print like this prior to the purchase. Yes, I would say that it provokes customer outrage.

–B.G.–

[Mark]

Anyone have any thoughts on why the cup is no longer safe to use?

Surely after the heat exchanger has melted it's just a normal Ti cup.

Still have my failed cup, keep meaning to try and remove the JB attachment and use it as a normal Ti cup.

[Author]

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