My (failed) attempt at a SHR section.

[Jennifer Mitol]

+a whole lot on the dehydration front. You need to significantly increase your water intake while taking diamox, and it seems like you weren't even drinking enough without it.

But I would also strongly encourage you to get a cardiology work up. No, they don't need to bring you to altitude, but an EKG, echocardiogram, holter monitoring, stress test, etc can bring out activity-related issues. There are some very serious congenital cardiac conditions that don't show up until the heart is under stress (which would be exacerbated at altitude) and you would be smart to make sure this isn't the case.

Good luck

[Greg Mihalik]

"My knowledge of nutrition is very limited, but I always end up eating a lot of carbs. So probably a lot more than 30%."

So, how Many calories did you actually eat?

Per Hour?

Per Day?

[Ken Helwig]

Justin, I'm confused….you had no problem climbing Kearsarge Pass but had issues at slightly lower elevations? If I understand this correctly, most of your trips are at lower elevations right? Ie Ventana, Lost Coast etc. I think aclimation and dehydration might be the cause here. If you don't mind me asking, how much experience do you have above 9, 000 feet??? It's a totally different animal up there for sure… and yes we're all different animals of a kind. Hey we have bailed on trips for different reasons. Heck I bailed on one with Bob Gross a few years ago because I did not know I was diabetic and kept crashing. On the positive. …you were in some great country out there

[Hiking Malto]

""My knowledge of nutrition is very limited, but I always end up eating a lot of carbs. So probably a lot more than 30%."

So, how Many calories did you actually eat?

Per Hour?

Per Day?"

Other Greg, you took the questions right out of my mouth. My suspicion was basically a long slow hitting the wall. Unfortunately used to happen to me all the time. Happened big time on the High Route when I did it. You burn quite a few calories.

[Justin Baker]

Thank you for all of the input, you have all given me a lot to think about. I'll look into seeing a physician.

Ken, I'm just as confused as you are. Before I left for a trip, I was talking to a guy and he said that sometimes you will be good for the first couple days and it will hit you on the 3rd or 4th day. That was my first time hearing that, I don't know how accurate his statement was but it happened to me.
Yes I mostly hike at lower elevations. I don't have much experience above 9,000 feet, just a few trips.

I carried about 1.25 lbs per day, not much. My guess is 2500 calories per day.

Here is a general list of foods I carried.
mh lasagna
mh chicken and rice
mh beef stew
mh potatoes/gravy
3 meals of instant mash potatoes
3 packets of ramen
4oz of bacon bits
13 oz of nuttella
10 oz of dried fruit
11 snickers bars
10 oz banana muffin mix
4 oz olive oil (poured into meals for extra calories)
powdered milk and cereal (enough for 6 breakfasts)
mh granola and blueberries (so bland and disgusting)
10 packets hot chocolate mix
picked berries in the lower canyons
and i ate 6 small trout

I know there was a lot more but I can't remember exactly. Just wanted to give an idea of what I'm eating. I have no idea if this is a good diet for hiking or not.

[Greg Mihalik]

Justin,
During the day, when you were hiking, what were you eating?

I see snicker bars, nuttella, and dried fruit.

If you don't know the calories, just give me a list of what you consumed and how much/many, and I can figure it out from there.

[Justin Baker]

I had a bunch of snack foods with me – I just can't remember what I had exactly. Probably cheezits, gorp, raisins, ritz crackers, fig newtons, oreos, stuff like that. Junk food to shove down my throat.
I didn't bring enough no-cook food and the bulk of my eating was concentrated during the evenings. I never seem to get the cook/no cook food ratio right.

I wish I could give you a complete list of everything but it was a month ago. I don't put much thought into food selection and I don't write this stuff down. I will start recording my eating habits for future reference.

[Greg Mihalik]

Justin,
I'll go out on a limb here ….

The next time you do a hard trip at altitude, figure out how to eat 150 to 200 calories per hour, while you're hiking, rain or shine, want to or not. It means finding stuff that you like, and can eat, and will eat. Preferably high in carbohydrates, like 70% or more. And then take 300 calories per hour. When you feel like crap, stop, rest, and eat some more. You may bring some of it back, but that will diminish as you "tune the system".

Don't call it a hike. Call it a "food training walk". The goal is to learn what your body needs to be happy. Learn to recognize (early), acknowledge, and deal with the symptoms of "Low Fuel" and "Tank Empty". You mention them above. Andrew F. echos your observations.

A 20 mile, 4000', 10 hour day, all by itself requires about 3000 to 3500 calories, maybe more. (YMMV and all of that.) If you are fit, and your 2 mph pace is 20 beats below your lactic threshold (you can easily carry on a long-winded conversation), you can get 25% of those calories from body fat. Otherwise, you have to eat more carbs.

For Instance:
For hard 10 hour "first days" I'll eat 5 PowerBars (1,200 calories), a ProBar (360), a 2 ounce snack bag of chips (300), a 2 ounce bag of Chex Party Mix (300), a "Fun Size" Snicker Bar, and some gum drops, for a total of 2,500 calories. (Which is probably to little, and why I lose about 1/2 pound a day.)

I don't think you were anywhere close to that. (Not counting dinner and breakfast.)

…stepping off the soapbox.

[Bob Gross]

"a 2 ounce bag of Chex Party Mix (300)"

I found a good way to get that done. I mix up my own, and I add some maltodextrin powder to the melting margarine to help increase the calories. It is a little bulky, but it is tasty.

–B.G.–

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Justin

Diagnosis at a distance of several thousand miles … always risky.

First of all, over 9,000' your digestion does go downhill a bit. You will need a lot of oxygen to handle any fats, especially if you are not experienced at those altitudes. Simple carbos become your friend.

You will also need MORE water to handle the exertion, the reduced humidity, and the digestion problems.

The amount of food you used, 20 oz/day, was grossly inadequate. You should have been eating at least 28 oz/day. Otherwise you are chewing into your reserves. OK for a couple of days, but then it starts to hit.

We have a large breakfast with a big drink, a large (substantial) morning tea with a big drink, a large solid lunch (more drinking), and if necessary a medium afternon tea. Then we have as big a dinner as we can manage. With more drinks. Even so, we still get into the snacks like chocolate and energy bars.

UL gear is great, but do remember that UL weight does NOT include either food or water!

Cheers

[ROBERT TANGEN]

FWIW: ELIMINATE THE GUESS WORK? On the outside of a package of GU Chomps it says: "This packet will fuel 1 1/2 to 2 hours of activity. Hydrate along the way."

[Greg Mihalik]

You are kidding, Right?

"Each serving of GU Chomps contains 4 pieces (90 calories) and will provide enough fuel for approximately 45-60 minutes of activity."

Like couch surfing, reading the paper, looking out the window.

Baseline metabolism is about 90 calories per hour.

[Anonymous]

"I will start recording my eating habits for future reference."

It would be highly beneficial to keep track of your carried food for each trip, and have a breakdown of how much is carbs, protein, fat, and fiber, along with total calories. This will allow you to correlate how you feel on a trip with the food you were using, and make adjustments accordingly. It would also give you data to bring to a continuation of this thread, where a lot of experienced folks could analyze it and perhaps come up with some useful suggestions. Another thing yuou might consider is to weigh yourself before and after each trip. This will give you a rough idea of how much body fat you are using to supplement your carried food, and allow you to adjust the amount of food you carry accordingly. I say rough idea because it is hard to differentiate completely between fat loss and water loss without doing a formal measurement like hydrostatic testing before and after a trip. Too much hassle, expensive, and probably unnecessary for ballpark estimating, which is close enough for your purposes.

[Steve S]

After having done about 1/2 the SHR, and having some experience at climbing at high altitudes, all I can add to the mix is the following observations:

When going up to altitude, you can only control a few things; you need to be in the best physical shape you can possibly be in. You have to eat and drink, especially drink, to the point of copious amounts, regularly. You may have to augment with some form of drugs, aspirin, Tylenol, or Diamox. Its still a crap shoot after all that!

The monitoring of your body is critical. Keep working on it. You seem to be learning and on the right track regardless of this trips outcome.

[Bob Gross]

You can take all sorts of shortcuts to the advice about eating and drinking enough. Sometimes, those might even work. However, sooner or later it will catch up to you.

One time I was doing the Mount Whitney dayhike. I went from Whitney Portal to Trail Crest, drank only eight ounces of Gatorade, and then went on to the summit. However, that was kind of a fluke, and I would not expect to get good results with that little food or water.

–B.G.–

[Hiking Malto]

Problem solved. The high route is not the place to skimp on food.

[jscott]

"Problem solved"…umm, I'd still suggest going in for that cardio work up. Not painful–no pain at all!–not expensive. Certainly good for peace of mind and crossing things off the list of possible causes.

I'm no doctor, but your lack of certain symptoms of altitude sickness gives pause. And you mentioned a racing heart. At least run the description of your symptoms that you gave in your second, more elaborate post, past a doctor or cardiologist. What's to lose?
We're just a bunch of people on the internet.

[Jennifer Mitol]

Thanks Jeffrey, I couldn't agree with that advice more. There are plenty of cardiological issues that can crop up when the body is under duress (long hikes, altitude, insufficient caloric intake, heat, etc) that you won't find at any other times. It has the potential to be life threatening (the single most common initial symptom of cardiac problems is sudden death. Seriously.), so just rule that out before you head back out there. By far the most likely scenario is dehydration and insufficient caloric intake, but goodness gracious you don't want to miss something important.

Be persistent. See a cardiologist.

[Hiking Malto]

""Problem solved"…umm, I'd still suggest going in for that cardio work up. Not painful–no pain at all!–not expensive. Certainly good for peace of mind and crossing things off the list of possible causes.

I'm no doctor, but your lack of certain symptoms of altitude sickness gives pause. And you mentioned a racing heart. At least run the description of your symptoms that you gave in your second, more elaborate post, past a doctor or cardiologist. What's to lose?
We're just a bunch of people on the internet."

Whether or not he needs to go to a doctor…… 2500 calories, when it is a mix of carbs, protein and fats is wholly insufficient for a trip like the high route especially if one is not trained to optimize fat as fuel . Another approach to going to a doctor…. Take a similiar hike and eat more carbs, especially carbs. It will answer the question.

[Justin Baker]

I originally planned this trip to be at relaxed place averaging about 10 miles per day. Once we hit the high country we planned to stop at a lake every night and eat plenty of fish to fill that gap. I still think that's a reasonable plan if you aren't hiking all day. Our re-route to loop back didn't take us by many lakes so I went a little hungry at times.
The problem is fitting all of that food into a bear canister while taking the route at a slower place. When I try the route again I'm going to carry a canister to avoid a ticket but not constrain my food to the canister.

A couple years ago I planned a 5 day trip out of Mineral King. It took me most of the day to hike the few miles up to Monarch Lake. It was miserable. The week before I did a 20 mile day hike at sea level so it's not like I was out of shape.
When I started up sawtooth pass it really hit me. I kept pushing (not a good idea) until I started to faint while scrambling over rocks. I slipped and nearly hurt myself. I sat there and for a moment I didn't know where I was and why I was there. After that I immediately bailed back to my car. It took me 2 years to attempt another 10k+ trip.

I'm going to see a cardiologist.

[Ken Helwig]

Justin, hopefully you can figure this out as you are (and will) be missing some fantastic places to hike. I can't help but to think dehydration and lack of calories with a little altitude sickness might be the cause of this. Just my 2 cents.

[Jason Elsworth]

Hope you are able to get to the bottom of this. It is my understanding that dehydration can lead to electrolyte imbalance and can cause a fast / irregular heart beat.

Did you have a good sun hat? In some of the pics it looks like you are using a make shift hat made from clothes.

Disclaimer: I am not a Dr and I don't play one on TV.

[jscott]

nm

[Randy Nelson]

"I'm going to see a cardiologist."

Good choice. My friend has Afib (Atrial Fibrillation) and he has those exact symptoms when it occurs. It's not predictable. Some trips he has no problems. Others he will be fine for a few days and then it kicks in. I'm not trying to diagnose your situation, just presenting something that confirms some previous recommendations and your choice. My understanding is that Afib is not common in younger people but it does happen. I hope you can find out what it is and get it taken care of. Good luck.

[Bogs and Bergs]

Also, get your B12 levels checked. People with pernicious anemia don't absorb B12 properly, no matter what they eat. Low levels can cause all kinds of trouble for the nerves and muscles – tingling or numb extremities, flutters in the heart (or bladder, or gut, any part of the autonomic nervous system) – but the first sign of trouble is usually inexplicable exhaustion and the feeling of having no energy reserves at all. It's an easy, cheap thing to fix, as long as you don't mind needles. :)

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