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Alcohol Stoves Reconsidered


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  • #2019735
    Franco Darioli
    Spectator

    @franco

    Locale: Gauche, CU.

    "Plus it boils 2 cups of water in 2 minutes versus 12+ for an alky stove"
    Me think you have the wrong alky stove….

    #2019736
    Arapiles .
    BPL Member

    @arapiles

    Locale: Melbourne

    "I find Alky stoves to be on the lower end of ok. They are fragile, not efficient in windy or cold weather plus the danger of spilling them and causing a blaze. "

    Not sure I agree:

    – fragile? Trangia & Sigg burners could literally be run over with a truck and I've seen photos of home made metho stoves that have reportedly lasted for a long time. And no jets to unclog or fiddle with.

    – not efficient in wind or cold weather? Trangias actually work better in the wind and I suspect that the Caldera Cone would be similar. And if they didn't work in the cold, why would they be so common in Sweden?

    – spilling? Again, only a factor in some home made designs. Siggs and Trangias have screw on tops

    Basically, there's a big difference in the performance of a home made metho stove sitting out by itself and its performance in a system like the Sigg, Trangia or, apparently, Caldera Cone.

    #2019739
    john hansford
    BPL Member

    @johnh1

    On average I brew up two pans of tea a day, 430ml each, 75'c, plus 500 ml of boiling water for an evening meal or porridge etc.

    Alky :

    Brasslite stove 1.5 ozs ( could save weight here)
    Cone…………….1.5
    Pan, lid, grab….5.0. (entire kitchen, plus a spoon)
    Fuel bottle……..1.5. ( 8ozs optic style)
    Zippo container1.5
    ……………………


    …………………….11 ozs
    …………………………………Alky per brew 0.5 ozs, per day 1.5 ozs, per 7 days 10.5 ozs
    Total 7 days……10.5
    ……………………..


    ……………………..21.5 ozs

    Jet Boil Sol Ti :

    Burner and mug 10 ozs (entire kitchen)
    Empty cartridge…3 ozs
    ……………………..


    ………………………13 ozs
    …………………………………..Gas per brew 4 gms , per day 12 gms, per 7 days 84 gms = 3 ozs
    ………………………. 3 ozs
    ………………………


    ……………………….16 ozs

    Hence for me, for a week, jet boil is best, If you make less hot water, the alky will begin to win out. If you don't cook at all, save over a pound!

    Ed to get the numbers lined up again!

    #2019766
    James Marco
    BPL Member

    @jamesdmarco

    Locale: Finger Lakes

    Alky stoves work well for short trips. But this depends on your usage.
    I make 4 cups of water in the morning: 2 for oatmeal, 2 for mocha. This is about 1 liter or 32oz(1qt.) I make a cup of cocoa at supper along with soup/a rice dish/occasional baking of a roll or two, and simmering. Together I use about 2.5-3floz of fuel per day. For me, they make perfect sense for short trips.

    For fuel weight alone, I don't consider them for longer trips, ie 1-2 weeks. At 14 days, this is 42 ounces of fuel. The density is about .8, so the weight is 33.6oz. Adding the weight of the stove and cone this is about 38oz. I assume you still need a pot for cooking, so ignore that.

    Canisters and WG get about 3L per ounce. With about 11L per 100g canister. A canister will last me 5 days. For example, if I were to take Roger Caffin's stove (3.25oz,) 3 cans of fuel at ~7oz each, and a ~1oz wind screen I would bring about 25oz. If I take the old SVEA, at 19oz (including the cup) I would need about 9.5 floz of fuel. Times the density (already figured in canisters since they go by weight) this is bout 8oz. Total is 28oz adding for the wind screen. If I bring the windpro and fuel, it weighs more than the SVEA and fuel. The cost of the fuel is much less with WG, less than half as much as alcohol and less than a quarter as much as canisters. (Assuming canisters are ~$5 for 4oz…I have seen them for much more and a bit less.)

    Volume also means a lot. 3 canisters and the stove is larger than the SVEA with a 12floz fuel bottle. The alcohol being in two .5L bottles, stove and heavier cone is also larger. (For trips of two weeks or less I use a GG Murmur.) So, overall, they pretty much even out over the same time period. THERE IS NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE between any of the stoves (at my usage.)

    Esbit is slightly lighter and slightly less volume, but makes a mess of the pot and cone. I spend three times longer cleaning up after every meal. Time is valuable to me, too. Soo, I never use it, though I have a couple boxes kicking around. I hate to do dishes on the trail more than saving a pair of ounces.

    Using your stove less or more can change the numbers. Going for a 4-5 days can change things. For me, it makes more sense to carry the least starting weight, with the least volume and the cleanest stove. At two weeks, my pack is stuffed full, mostly with food. My gear, shelter, sleeping system, cooking system and spare clothing take up less space in my pack than the food…by far. Roughly 2/3 of the weight at 24 pounds is food. About a similar proportion for volume. A base weight of 8 pounds including the cook system, is good enough for a couple weeks out. I look forward to cooking and eating each day. It's one luxury item I can afford to carry.

    #2019849
    robert van putten
    Member

    @bawana

    Locale: Planet Bob

    James,
    I was a die hard gasoline stove user for decades – MSR Whisperlight or even the old Optimus 8R. So my cooking methods revolved around having a very hot and efficient stove.

    When I first started cooking with alcohol, my fuel usage was similar to yours, because I also like to boil at least a quart per meal. I also often brew up tea for lunch.

    But I have found that with practice I have gotten my usage down by simply soaking my food first to hydrate it, then heating it to the desired temp.

    For oatmeal, I use the real stuff, not instant. I'll toss it in the pot after dinner, maybe add whatever dried fruit I have and put the lid on and set a rock on top. In the morning simply heat it to the desired temp. Of course this works for cracked wheat, wheat berries, polenta or any other grain as well. I typically soak this stuff overnight at home when I want it for breakfast so I simply started doing the same out in the woods.
    You'll use very little fuel and as an added bonus, you get real food instead of the instant crap.

    Dinner is often done the same way. Often I'll have a spicy polenta/couscous mix. Soaking it 1/2 hour before hand ( or longer ) reduced the fuel needed considerably.

    Tea is a different subject. I carry two cook pots, and one is used primarily to brew tea and I guzzle it down by the quart. But instead of bringing a quart of water to a boil, throwing in my tea and waiting another ten minutes till it cools so I can drink it, I'll add my tea bags to the cold water ( usually two per qt. ) then heat to bubbles form on the bottom of the pot, typically just before it simmers.

    The tea has plenty of time to steep so is strong and is quite hot, yet not so hot that I can't drink it right away.

    Now the stove I use is not ultralight by any means, but I don't care, I carry it anyway –

    Last Sunday morning found me cooking breakfast for five over my alcohol stove in the vestibule of my tent in a rather nasty storm!

    cooking in vestibule

    #2019851
    Kattt
    BPL Member

    @kattt

    Just chiming in to say I like the picture and the story that goes with it.

    #2019923
    James Marco
    BPL Member

    @jamesdmarco

    Locale: Finger Lakes

    Yeah, I don't really care what I use. I hate to spend 15 or twenty dollars on a trip I don't *have* to, though. I am not really wedded to my old stove. I have been looking for a better, more efficient replacement for about 30 years. The best is for short trips (2-5 nights) when I can bring alcohol. The past 5 years or so, all of my trips are a week or two weeks duration, though. I have the wife, who is still working-I am retired, drop me off somewhere. She picks me up a week or two later, though rarely at the same location.

    Yeah, soaking works pretty good. The problem I have out in the woods is the mini-bears and bears. Coons, squirrils and such can easily open a pot with a rock on top. Forget black bears…we have more than our share in the ADK's. Putting that stuff up in the tree works (in a zip-lock,) but it still needs to be boiled for drinking/eating. I only treat drinking water.

    Carrying water is never high on my list of likes. Mixing water and food a couple hours ahead of cooking, means carrying the extra pound-pound and a half for two or three cups *just* when I am getting tired. I don't really care to do that. Baking rolls (bisquick, olive oil and cinnamon, honey etc,) is not something I can do ahead of time. The baking soda kind'a dies and they come out very dense.

    Anyway, by cooking food, I usually get my food weight down to about 1.1-1.25 pounds per day. My total pack weight is usually about 24-25 pounds for two weeks. I am fairly comfortable with that.

    #2019931
    Steven McAllister
    BPL Member

    @brooklynkayak

    Locale: Arizona, US

    Regarding soaking:

    I usually add about a half cup or so of water to any dehydrated food an hour or two before I think I'll make camp.

    This adds minimal weight and really speeds up the cooking time of dehydrated meats, lentils, vegetables, …

    #2020021
    Franco Darioli
    Spectator

    @franco

    Locale: Gauche, CU.

    John,
    the difference between alcohol and canister is not really reflected fairly in your system.
    According to your calculation , in weight, the gas in your canister is about 3.8x more efficient than alcohol.
    That maybe so with your exact system but we are not comparing apples and apples here.

    Secondly , it is a bit hard to start your trip with exactly 84 g of gas but you can start with the exact weight you want with alcohol.
    To exagerate the other way, if you only had one boil you would still need about 100g between the ganister and fuel whilst I can boil 500ml with about 14g of alcohol with the 12-10 burner.
    Same ,if you went for 9 days you wuould need to carry the 230g canister and make sure to have about 110g of fuel inside it…
    Also your 5oz pot is on the heavy side….

    BTW, I have several canister stoves, including the oriinal JetBoil and the latest Roger Caffin creation, so no I don't dislike them….

    #2020028
    Jerry Adams
    BPL Member

    @retiredjerry

    Locale: Oregon and Washington

    I think butane is more like 2.5x more efficient than alcohol, if you have the best possible alcohol stove. For some stoves it could be 5x. 0.2 oz butane to boil 1 pint of water. 1 T or 1/2 ounce alcohol if you have a good alcohol stove.

    I usually have a couple partial canisters so if I'm going for a short trip, I don't have to take too much extra but you're right, that's a factor

    If you used adventures in stoving Jim's hardware, you could transfer butane between canisters and have just the amount needed, like alcohol

    Latest Roger Stove, cool.

    #2020114
    john hansford
    BPL Member

    @johnh1

    "According to your calculation , in weight, the gas in your canister is about 3.8x more efficient than alcohol"

    I'm sure the pot has a lot to do with the difference in efficiency. The Sol Ti has a 0.8lt cup with heat fins (the flux ring) on the base and a neoprene jacket for insulation, and is more compact than the original Jetboil.

    "If you went for 9 days you would need to carry the 230g canister and make sure to have about 110g of fuel inside it…"

    On one Sierra trip I got 31 brews out of one 110gm Snowpeak Giga power canister, enough for 9 days at my useage, and a lot longer for some people. But I agree, once you get up to a 230gm canister or multiple canisters, then any advantage goes rapidly downhill.
    Likewise, for short trips alcohol would be far better with regard to weight, or Esbit better still with no cone, fuel bottle or carry case.

    "Also your 5oz pot is on the heavy side…."

    It is the AGG 3 cup pot, which is 710 ml which gives a comfortable "freeboard" before water or food starts slopping out. I cook up 4 ozs porridge oats or large portion Mountain House etc. there is a 600 ml Evernew low pot at 3.5 ozs with handles on, but it might be too small, and the plastic coating on the handles would get trashed on my wood stoves. I use a pot grab (1.25 ozs) because I don't carry a bandana and don't want to put clothing near the flames. I also don't use a mug because I like twice the volume a mug can give me!

    Here is one of the locals checking out my dinner. Fortunately I'd eaten it!

    Here is one of the locals checking out my dinner. Fortunately I'd eaten it!

    #2020144
    Steven McAllister
    BPL Member

    @brooklynkayak

    Locale: Arizona, US

    Where alcohol has the big advantage is on long hikes where you rarely see an outfitter and most resupplies are from small town hardware stores, gas stations or convenience stores.

    Alcohol and multi-fuel stoves allow for more frequent resupplies, so you don't have to carry so much fuel.

    You can find Heet at almost every store you pass by on the trail in the northern US.

    Even the smallest Hardware store will carry pints of denatured alcohol.

    Drug stores have Isopropyl and liquor stores carry ethyl(Everclear, Devil's Springs,…).

    As mentioned, many alcohol stoves have no parts to wear out or break. No gaskets to leak, no threads to strip, no jets to clean, … Nothing to maintain.

    #2020230
    Stuart R
    BPL Member

    @scunnered

    Locale: Scotland

    the difference between alcohol and canister is not really reflected fairly in your system

    To make a meanngful comparison of efficiency between alcohol and canister stoves, both have to run at the same heat output.
    So, if an alcohol stove takes 5 minutes (say) to boil 2 cups of water, then the canister stove must be turned down so that it takes the same time. Only then can you compare the quantities of fuel used.
    I haven't seen anyone do that yet.

    #2020247
    Harald Hope
    Spectator

    @hhope

    Locale: East Bay

    John, when comparing, it's best to compare most efficient to most efficient, and light. When I looked at fuel consumption for different backpacking stoves recently, I didn't check the jetboil because it's very expensive and most hikers do not use it unless they have a fair amount of free money at hand, so it's worth revisiting the data. Since the jetboil data are your numbers, I can't be accused of bias here re my preferences.

    Brasslite stove 1.5 ozs ( could save weight here)
    Cone…………….1.5
    Pan, lid, grab….5.0. (entire kitchen, plus a spoon)
    Fuel bottle……..1.5. ( 8ozs optic style)
    Zippo container1.5
    ……………………


    …………………….11 ozs
    …………………………………Alky per brew 0.5 ozs, per day 1.5 ozs, per 7 days 10.5 ozs
    Total 7 days……10.5 (this is not correct, the total is by weight: 8.4oz)
    ……………………..


    ……………………..21.5 ozs

    Here's a corrected list, to show the best setup I could come up with, just as the jetboil is the best re fuel consumption setup you can get for gas, I use a 900 ml pot, with a real lid, so if I were to perfectly match your pot size, my pot would be a bit lighter, I'm not clear if you use a cup or not. Weights rounded up to next gram.

    900 ml pot/lid: 103 gm
    measuring cup for fuel: 1gm (required to not waste it)
    spoon: 8 gm
    ion screen/heat reflector: 27 gm
    ion stove/stand: 16
    fuel bottle: 7x4cup a day: ~20gm 7x6cups a day: ~28gm

    I believe this matches your list above in terms of features/functionality/size, though I'd use a cup (20 gm) with cozy, and pot cozy (27 gm), the cozy means no presoak of food required, no need to carry food that is soaking, etc, because it does all that after the boil).

    For the same basic alcohol items, then: total: 185 gm: 6.5 oz plus cup/cozy, but you didn't list those so I will leave them out.

    500ml/2 cups requires with this setup 11 gm of fuel. 430ml would require about 15% less, call it 10gm. 11 gm is 13.5ml, 10gm is 12 ml. So that's 31 gm per day, compared to 12 gm for your jetboil. 31×7=217gm for 7 day/nights. I assume your 1/2oz per boil is measured oz, so your 1.5oz per day is wrong in terms of weight, it's actually 1.2oz per day by weight.

    Total for alcohol system as listed: 185+217gm= 402gm = 14.2 oz. This is much less than the 20.5oz you have listed, and it's obviously also less than the jetboil start weight, as you can see, ie, comparing the very best numbers a gas canister can deliver using the best and most expensive gas canister setup, using your numbers for the jetboil, with what I have found to be the best and most efficient alcohol setup, ie, now it's apples to apples. Since I'd actually carry a bit more alcohol, because it's easy to add an ounce or two fluid, call this number 15oz. If you use a cone, these numbers should be even better (ie, about 10gm to boil 2cups), if they are not, I am unclear what purpose the cone serves.

    I wasn't sure that the ion setup would compete with the jetboil, but apparently it wins there too. When I did the initial backpacking stove fuel weight/consumption chart, I assumed 12 gm average for alcohol and 2 cups, but if I were to compare best to best, as here, then I'd use 11gm for alcohol instead of 12.

    Also, of course, there is the true carrying weight of the systems on your back daily during hte trip.. When you return, the last day of your trip, you will be carrying about 13oz, give or take with your jetboil. Wnen you return with the alcohol setup, you will be carrying 6.5 oz.

    If REI reports it correctly, time to boil 2 cups with jetboil is 4.5 minutes, time to boil with ion will be about 2x longer give or take, maybe a touch more, ie, 500ml 10 minutes or so.

    Your jetboil start weight is 15.5 to 16oz, depending on the canister weight, An optimus 110gm canister weighs 7.5 oz at start, ie, it's about 1.5 oz greater than your listed fuel/canister start weights. You don't start with the fuel you will use, you start with the fuel the canister contains, it's only with liquid fuels that you can measure reasonably accurately what to bring depending on trip length. I assume there is some variation here between brands re canister weight, that's the brand I have on hand.

    Just as an aside, if I were doing precisely what you are doing here, ie, 2cups for food a day boiled, and 430ml x 2 times per day, I would save even more fuel, because optimal tea steeping temp by perfect coincidence is about 180-185 degrees, ie, the exact temperature ti pots start to make those odd popping sounds when water hits that temp, so I'd actually be using less than 10gm for those 430ml, it would be around 9gm, or 8, depends. Same advantage would be with jetboil, ie, you can probably knock off 1 gm per day consumption with that too if you just turn the tea water off when the first real bubbles form at 180F or so, don't know if you hear that on a jetboil, you do on a free standing ti pot.

    Re 31 boils per 110gm cartridge, I assume that's with something like 1.5 cups, give or take. Obviously, if you are only boiling 1.5 cups, you use 25% less fuel, for alcohol, you'd be using only about 9gm fuel then, same advantage would apply, also of course takes less time to boil 1.5 cups, about 7.5 minutes with ion, give or take. With a penny stove, it takes about 5 minutes, it's fairly efficient, but only works on wide pots.

    If you go with a less efficient alcohol stove, but faster, then on the first day or two, you may carry a touch more weight than with canisters, but after that point, you carry less, always. And with the most efficient alcohol setup, you never carry more weight. But it is slower, so if time is a big issue to you, then a faster stove is probably worth the tiny weight difference. I am unable to detect any real world difference between waiting 3 minutes to boil water and 5 to 6 in terms of my experience in nature, it's nice sitting watching the trees and plants and little critters skittering around, I'm not in a hurry at this point of the day.

    Franco, your numbers seem off for the cone/stove setup, in a recent thread, with that setup, using heine type pots, ie, narrow, people were getting 12 gm for 2 cups. And that's the least efficient pot size you can use. If you use, by the way, wide pots, the alcohol consumption numbers are a bit lower, a touch over 10gm for 2 cups, but the weight of the pot is more.

    Canister stoves re fuel consumption have one clear advantage in terms of fuel consumed, you can turn them off the second the water is at the temp you want, thus optimizing fuel consumption. You can roughly do this with alcohol by using the right measured amount of fuel, but it's not quite as accurate. So even though canister stoves have an edge in these types of areas, they still can't beat a good alcohol setup in normal backpacking when it comes to carry weight, particularly for one person. If I go with more than one person, I'd use a faster alcohol stove, that brings the boil times closer, but that's not my general style so it's not an issue for me. Personally I don't make big mugs of tea, I just drink a small cup of it, that's all I need.

    #2020285
    Greg Mihalik
    Spectator

    @greg23

    Locale: Colorado

    Harald –
    "Canister stoves re fuel consumption have one clear advantage in terms of fuel consumed, you can turn them off the second the water is at the temp you want, thus optimizing fuel consumption. You can roughly do this with alcohol by using the right measured amount of fuel, but it's not quite as accurate."

    With my 12-10 alcohol stove I use an aluminum muffin tin "snuffer" to stop the burn. It's a fast, effective, light, and safe way to deal with "quenching" an alcohol stove. I aspirate residual alcohol back into the fuel bottle, so there is no need to measure, and no lost fuel.

    #2020291
    Stephen M
    BPL Member

    @stephen-m

    Locale: Way up North

    Its been 15 years since I used a trangia, but if I remember correctly the burner had a lid that could be put on top of the burner to put the flame out.

    #2020303
    Greg Mihalik
    Spectator

    @greg23

    Locale: Colorado

    "if I remember correctly the burner had a lid that could be put on top of the burner to put the flame out."

    The Trangia burner comes with a screw-on lid and a snuffer/simmer lid. The later has a pivoting top that allows you to adjust the flame, and in the "closed" position, snuff the flame.

    A very functional design, IMHO

    #2020545
    john hansford
    BPL Member

    @johnh1

    I didn't set out to make a scientific analysis of alcohol stoves v canister stove efficiency, I just posted a few comments on my stove and my useage.

    Ok, let's start with the JETBOIL.

    @ Harold Hope

    I sense there is some scepticism about my 31 brews per 110 gm canister.
    You have misquoted what I said to suit your own argument :

    "Re 31 boils per 110gm cartridge, I assume that's with something like 1.5 cups"

    I did not say 31 boils, and I did not say 1.5 cups. At the risk of boring everyone else here, I'll repeat what I said, ie 31 BREWS. Not obvious in meaning perhaps, but clear enough from the text what I was doing on that 9-10 day segment of a longer trip. Each day I boiled 500ml once, and heated 430ml to 75'c twice. Doing this I used the stove 31 times with the same 110gm canister.

    I have reproduced this result at home :

    JETBOIL SOL Ti

    500ml 21'c – 100'c = 4gm gas used (measured with a beam balance )

    430ml 21'c – 75'c ..=. 3gm

    4 + 3 + 3 = 10gm, ie 3.3gm average

    110 / 3.3 = 33

    That was in my kitchen, so expect a little less on the mountain, hence 31.

    "If REI reports it correctly, time to boil 2 cups with jetboil is 4.5 minutes"

    You need to state which type of Jetboil you are referring to. The Sol Ti will heat 2 cups of 21'c water to boiling in 2.5 minutes.

    430 ml to 75'c takes 1.5 minutes, and I can hold the stove in my hands inside the tent while it does it. Try doing that with alcohol.

    " An optimus 110gm canister weighs 7.5 oz at start, ie, it's about 1.5 oz greater than your listed fuel/canister start weights"

    110gm gas = 3.8 ozs, ok I guessed the empty weight at 3 ozs, but 3.8 + 3 = 6.8, ie not 1.5 less than your 7.5 Optimus.

    "I didn't check the jetboil because it's very expensive and most hikers do not use it unless they have a fair amount of free money at hand"

    I'm retired now so can afford a few luxuries ; ), plenty of others have them too.
    When I did that trip a FIRE BAN was announced for the route, and I had to quickly go and buy a new stove. I had planned to use a wood burner.
    You would not have been able to use any form of alcohol stove either.

    "900 ml pot/lid: 103 gm"

    BPL used to market the Firelite 900-SUL pot weighing 87.5gm, where is a 103 gm pot available now? What do others use, ideally wide base 800 ml?

    BRASSLITE

    Doing the numbers at home indoors, it will boil 500ml in 6.5 minutes using 16gm, (0.56 ozs), and heat 430 to 75 using 10gm. Ethanol with some methanol.

    Hence per day 36gm, per 7 days 252gm = 8.9 ozs. This is not so good outside.

    It might be a bit inefficient, but is easy to light , through the side holes if necessary, and has a simmer control. However, I guess I should get a better one.

    BTW you don't need to heat tea water to 180-185'F = 84'c, 75'c is quite enough, bag in from cold. Also, a pot cozy is not necessary for what I do.

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