Current conversations with JMT hikers

[W I S N E R !]

UL might equal less gear carried, but it does not equal less gear in total. Browse some of the pictures of the gear rooms people on this site have. Multiple packs, multiple shelters, a sleeping bag for every season, 5 stoves….

And the "traditional" backpackers that I know are not any less seasoned than many ULers out there. How many UL people on this site have endless posts on gear with a trip report nowhere to be found?

Many of the "traditional" backpackers I know still carry their heavy gear because:
A) They are not chronic consumers and do not want to replace functional gear already owned to save some weight.
B) They are not held back in their objectives by the heavier gear they have. Case in point: many climbers and surfers I know. They could care less about shelters and packs and stoves because backpacking is not the goal- the goal is to set up a camp to climb or surf from, not make high trail mileage or simply backpack.
C) They are just not interested in gear. My surfing partner, who has traveled the world, climbed Kilamanjaro and McKinley, and is sleeping outside on boats, islands, or beaches just about every weekend of the year doesn't give a damn about gear. To him, if it keeps you dry and warm, a tent is a tent. Why does he carry a 6lb. North Face shelter and a 7lb. Gregory pack? Because they're what he has and will continue to use until they're worn out. His money goes to gasoline, food, and trips.

And to think some newbie UL convert might run across him in the Sierra some day and judge him to not know what he's doing because he has a Gregory on his back….

Bleh.

[Bob Gross]

Some of us have arrived at a ripe old age, well over 45, and we simply are not speedy anymore. I keep going by reducing my base weight each year by one pound. I can't keep that up for long. However, I can stay in the game.

–B.G.–

[Kate Magill]

"UL might equal less gear carried, but it does not equal less gear in total."

Not always the case. At least a few of us are drawn to UL because we're minimalists, not because we crave the latest and greatest. When I buy a piece of gear, I don't want to have to buy two more iterations to fill specific niches, and I don't want to have to buy a replacement every season for stuff that disintegrates. I strive to use as much of my gear as possible year round and not own things that only see the light of day once a year. Because of this, I'll never set any records for lowest base weight ever. But, as a 100 lb person, there is simply no way carrying a 7 lb pack or a 6 lb tent would be smart choices for me, especially since I put in roughly 500-1000 miles of hiking on a yearly basis (I'd love to be able to afford more). I might not do any damage on a weekend trip, but I know my knees couldn't handle that weight for a month of continuous trekking, and it sure wouldn't be fun for me.

Moreover, I live mostly off-the-grid, in a 100 sq ft space. I simply don't have the space for stuff that I don't use, nor do I want to accumulate objects I don't really need. Most of my backpacking gear sees regular use around my home. I sleep with my down quilt when it gets chilly. I eat with my spork and drink coffee out of a snowpeak mug. If it weren't for some fond heirloom dishes, it would probably be my only mug. When friends visit, I pitch the tent or hammock for them to sleep in. Indoors, my hammock doubles as a storage loft, and prior to that it was my at-home bed. A tarp helps make my outdoor space livable in iffy weather.

Carrying lighter gear has improved my outdoor experience, plain and simple. Going from nearly 20 lbs to 10 lbs of baseweight means I get out in the woods more often, for longer stretches, and enjoy it more. And I don't have more gear than when I started. Everything I don't use is either sold secondhand or gifted to friends and family, but most items don't get replaced until I've worn them out. Impulse purchases and redundancy aren't really in my budget–I like to travel.

Long story short, it's silly to make generalizations about why people have the gear they have, whether heavy or light or anywhere in between.

[M B]

"UL might equal less gear carried, but it does not equal less gear in total."

No one set of gear, suits all trips, all seasons, all conditions.

Especially not a UL set.

If one was to cherry pick times and trips, they could certainly get by with one set much of year however.

There are a few that enjoy being out in adverse conditions, and a very few that seem to seek out the worst mother nature can sling at them.

[Brian Mix]

I read thru this thread when it first started and again now. My question is how/ when do you have these conversations? I briefly notice peoples' gear as I am approaching to pass, generally the only "conversation" I'm having with them is "Passing on your right" or left whichever the case may be. When I get passed it generally plays out pretty much the same.
Maybe I'm in the minority but I visit the wilderness to get away- I'm not there to make friends. If it happened that would be pretty cool because it would be a like minded hiker but it hasn't yet.
When I do chat with people who are stopped I never talk about gear. I figure we are out there for the same reason and discuss the area not the gear. If someone were to ask, I'd have no problem explaining but until then…
But then again, I'm not UL- my last 4 night trip I carried 26lbs including two quarts of water so maybe my opinion doesn't count.

[Nathan Watts]

"I read thru this thread when it first started and again now. My question is how/ when do you have these conversations?"

Try reading a third time. OP answers your question in his 3rd sentence.

[Brian Mix]

"Try reading a third time. OP answers your question in his 3rd sentence."
Thanks. I guess it was somewhat rhetorical. Or maybe I lack reading comprehension.

[Steven McAllister]

I also believe that outfitters are big contributor to these heavy packs you see.

I don't usually buy from outfitters because of their lack of light hiking gear.

Some stores do actually stock ultralight gear because of requests from experienced hikers, but they keep this gear in back rooms or high up on a shelf in the corner and the sales people will almost always try to talk you out of even considering it.

In front they will have displays of car camping tents, heavy big backpacks and other items that a backpacker wouldn't like carrying on their backs.

Lets face it, car camping is by far more popular than backpacking and those that do backpack are only doing it once every two years.

So they run to the outfitter a couple days before their hike and the salespeople will proceed to sell them a bunch of expensive heavy junk. High profits and commissions can be made this way.

We've all heard the sales person in the shoe department who uses his extensive hiking experience to convince you to buy the heavy, waterproof high top boots.

Or maybe they convince people that they need the so-called backpacking tent that they have on display. It only weighs 5 lbs and it's on sale this week.

Of course, since they will be carrying a lot of heavy gear and 20 lbs of food for a 4 day hike, they will need the 8 lb framed pack to make hiking more comfortable.

They will also need a lantern, hatchet, two cooking pots and a mug, plates, knife, spoon and fork, heavy ground cloth(don't want to get dirt on your new tent) and a few other perceived necessities.

These sales-people are experienced backpackers and so they know what is required for you to enjoy your hike and they will make sure you get all this gear at their shop.

[Dena Kelley]

"So they run to the outfitter a couple days before their hike and the salespeople will proceed to sell them a bunch of expensive heavy junk. High profits and commissions can be made this way."
–
I would think that the average outdoors store makes as much money or more on UL versions of gear than they do on heavy stuff. I could easily buy a much roomier, much more comfortable 2-man tent for a lot less than I spent on my Fly Creek UL2 if I were willing to carry 2 or 3 lbs more. My Western Mountaineering sleeping bag cost me a small fortune and I could have spent less for an equally rated, much heavier synthetic bag from REI. For that matter, I could have simply continued to use my 10 year old heavy gear that all of this replaced. I could provide more examples but you get the point, I'm sure. Unless you're a DIY'er, you probably spent more money on your UL gear than you would have spent on equivalently rated heavy gear. So I don't think stores are doing it out of profit motivation.

I think the heavier gear is driven from three other things:
1) Liability to the store. Bombproof heavy gear will be less prone to failure, reducing legal liability to the store (possibly) and reducing the chance of a warranty return (definitely). UL gear is often more fragile than heavy gear, excepting things like titanium and carbon fiber.
2) Ignorance on the part of the seller. In all honesty I think many people that work in sporting goods stores are actually rather ignorant of what they sell. Or they may legitimately think that the buyer wants some heavy, bombproof gear when the reality is that…
3) The buyer is ignorant. They don't know about UL, they only know that when they were kids they hauled in 50 lb packs of gear and so as an adult they plan to do the same and they scoff at the gossamer thinness of some UL gear and think, "There's no way that would hold up". They want gear that won't fail, and they convey that message to the seller. The seller just wants to keep the customer happy, so they sell them what they "want" rather than educate them on UL. Assuming the seller knows anything about UL to start with.

[Aaron Sorensen]

Yes, but all that light stuff is sitting right by the stuff they buy.
They are ultimately making the choice. If anyone even wanted to look into lighting thier load, it doesn't take much to find out what to do anymore.

The ones who don't even try are the ones with the huge heavy packs.
Okay, so it's 80-90% of the ones out there.
Ignorance is bliss.

It seems obvious to me that the UL crowd is not getting the word out to enough people. Either that or there needs to be Ultralight gear shops popping up everywhere that can compete with REI or similar outfitters.

[Steven McAllister]

My experience has shown that the salespeople in most outfitters do talk people out of purchasing UL gear.

Time and time again I have had sales people try to talk me out of an item that was in stock, hidden on a corner shelf.
Insisting that I would be happier with much heavier item.

It may be because the markup is not as high on most UL gear and so they make less profit.

I know when I went to replace my shoes, I went to two different stores because they didn't have my style and/or size.

In both cases the sales people asked if I was going to wear them hiking. When I said yes, they insisted that I buy high-top waterproof boots instead of light trail runners.
Telling me that the lighter shoes are unsafe and that trail runners are only for paved or smooth gravel trails.

My wife went in to try on backpacks and was also looking at daypacks a few years back.
There were no UL packs in stock at any of the stores.
One store was a Golite dealer at the time, yet they didn't stock any of the Golite UL packs, only the heavier framed packs.
Even the Golite daypacks they stocked were the heaviest models. And this was when Golite were making the Ion.

When we asked about weight, they didn't know and didn't think it was important, blabbing about how heavier packs are more comfortable and all the usual sales crap.

I do want to support local businesses, but I am frustrated with the choice and the sales people and so usually order online.

[Nick Gatel]

"I would think that the average outdoors store makes as much money or more on UL versions of gear than they do on heavy stuff."

Typically retailers look for a gross profit margin (GPM) across the board of XX%.

So lets say they want 40% GPM. They get this by multiplying Cost x 1.67.

Product #1 Cost = $200. Selling price = $200 x 1.67 = $334. Gross Profit = $134.

Product #2 Cost = $100. Selling price = $100 x 1.67 = $167. Gross Profit = $67.

Sometimes if they buy a large quantity of product on sale, they will lower the expected GPM because they can move it quickly and take in profit quicker.

[Paul McLaughlin]

Many people are afraid that lighter gear will not hold up. They want rugged stuff, and when they handle the lighter gear it feels flimsy to them, so they stick with the bombproof stuff. Durability has always been a big selling point in the outdoor gear industry, and lighter gear is simply not going to be as durable unless it is made from more expensive stuff like Dyneema. Also, people like "features", features are easy to sell and features add weight.

Outdoor gear shops will sell anything that they can make money on. I've worked in both large(REI) and small shops in the past, and that was true for both. They may be conservative in trying new products, but if it moves off the shelf they will get more of it. Of course, it it's REI they want a LOT of it. They aren't going to carry something they can't stock in every store and order in large quantities, so the cottage makers aren't in the game.
And I do think they are going to be conservative in their recommendations. I think the assumption in a big store has to be that the customer is not knowledgeable or skilled – that is the safe assumption to make.

Another factor is that the store naturally wants to sell you as much gear as they can, since that's how they make money. Especially the small stuff – accessories. Not only do they make a bigger margin on accessories, but a lot of that stuff is consumable to a degree. So the salesperson is happy to sell you lots of nice widgets that sure seem handy but that all add weight to your pack.

[Joseph Brody]

That last 5 day trip I did. I was asked a lot, "Are you on a day hike?".

Some of the conversations turned into 45 min talks.

The thing that makes me cringe is seeing a pair shoes dangling from the outside of packs.

[Valerie E]

Just got back from several days on the JMT, and I only saw one SUL person (guy with a tiny Cuben pack – dead giveaway!). Most people seemed to be med/lt backpackers (Osprey 60L packs seemed to be the "average"). But let's face it: the absolute requirement for bear canisters is a game changer. Unless you don't really eat (and I know some of you on BPL don't believe in bringing much food – but that's another thread), those 30L packs won't fit even a small Bearikade (much less a standard Bearvault or Garcia).
I don't think the JMT is a good place to "preach" about UL, because it's a "name brand" hike, thereby attracting all kinds of people who don't normally backpack (akin to a Grand Canyon "rim-to-rim"). If you really want to talk about minimalism, here's a shout-out to the NY-sounding guy who jogged up to the stone building on John Muir Pass in running shorts/t-shirt/running shoes, and was carrying only a small water bottle (not even so much as a snack!); or the two girls with teeny 3L Camelbacks who ran through LeConte canyon at 6am….
No question that most outdoor store employees are less knowledgeable that someone who ACTUALLY gets out there and DOES this stuff…and most people will just listen without researching for themselves. But money is also a big factor — don't forget, a $100 sleeping bag is heavy, but cheap; a WM bag is light, but VERY pricey. Not everyone has the financial freedom to spend what's required for a "comfortable" UL set-up.
Anyway, I don't think this should be a competition. Everyone has different wants/needs/comfort levels, and at the risk of being a giant cliché factory: HYOH!

[Stephen M]

I am reading Bryson's "A Walk in the Woods" for the second or third time, and I was smiling when he was on about going to the outfitter to get kitted out.

[Jake D]

"But money is also a big factor"

research and just plain not buying extra crap goes a long ways.

http://www.lytw8.com/uploads/Cheap_Ultralight_Gear_List.pdf

I think having people be UL on a mainstream trail would help them do other trails or hikes instead of going on a deathmarch with a heavy ass pack for 2 weeks and hating it. It would go a long ways if more information was out there like the link above and people talked about it more instead of large entities like NOLS and AMC telling people they are unprepared and stupid without giant lists of crap.

JMT is relatively short.. go to a longer trail and the people who have made it the furthest generally have it figured out and the ones who didn't are probably at home. It takes a pretty stubborn person to walk 2000mi with a heavy pack surrounded by people who are carrying much less.

The problem with many outfitters is that they don't pay people well enough to afford to go out and do as much. also many require weekend/holiday work so opportunities are limited. I worked at EMS when i knew a lot about climbing, a bit about backpacking and next to nothing about shoes and kayaks (big kayaking area). I applied to REI over the winter..knowing a lot about climbing, a lot about backpacking, a lot about cycling, a bit about shoes and barely an interview over the phone and never heard again. And even if i got the job i couldn't afford to live on what they pay so it would have been short lived and they'd hire some college kid needing part time work.

[Steven McAllister]

There are some basic rules of retail sales that come into play here.

#1 – If the customer is looking to buy something you stock, you sell it to them, even if you think it is a bad choice.

#2 – Always recommend items that you stock, even if the customer could get a more appropriate item elsewhere.

#3 – Stock an inventory of popular items, even if they are not that great for their purpose. Car camping gear is far more popular than backpacking gear.

#4 – The customer is always right. Don't debate their decision no matter how uneducated their choice. If they like you, they will come back and buy the better item when they figure out they made a bad choice.

I remember interviewing for specialized software and electronic hardware retail sales jobs when I was young.
I had a complete knowledge of all items the stores sold. And the people who were selling the products had very little knowledge of how to run the items they sold.

I never got the jobs because the required sales experience was more important than knowledge of the products. They were not looking for nerds/gear heads.

I decided that retail sales was not for me after that and luckily got a technician job making much more money than I would have ever made in retail sales.

[Richard May]

Steven, I think you make a good point. Stores stock and sell what customers want and buy.

I've never known a car salesperson who actually sells cars. The father at the Volvo dealership is actually buying security and the middle-aged man at the Porsche dealer is buying the fountain of youth. Good salespeople know this and exploit it. People want tough, durable and secure so they get big, bulky and heavy. After all, why spend good money on a flimsy, delicate piece of plastic?

Hey, salespeople have got to make a living. It takes less time to sell a tent that pitches itself to a newbie than take them outside and show them how to pitch a tarp, use a bivy and select the right kind of sleeping gear.

Frankly it's not their job. Arguably, as a community, that job is ours. Assuming, of course, it's your thing to evangelize.

When people start walking into outfitters asking for tarps they will start pushing tarps.

[Steve S]

I don't think that the bear cans are that big of a deal. I have been using the old original Jams, and even in the small/med size, I can get the 450 to fit. Just knowing you need a can should add to the decision process for that hike. The sheer logistics and planning for someone to come over and do the JMT should take that into account. When I went to the REI here in Idaho, to order a can, they didn't even know what they were. :)

Even worse is the fact that with a very limited amount of planning, one could spend almost every night on their JMT hike in what I would call "non bear habitat". Like any smart animal, they go where food is, and they won't be at altitude just for the sake of some hikers food stash. I was really surprised at how much of the JMT really wasn't very good bear country. Sure, they are and have been all over there for many centuries, but that doesn't mean they live there continuously. Most high country is very very void of serious food or forage. Its a short lived community at best. But on a good note, its nice to hear stats that show the incidents of bear confrontations over food have diminished so dramatically.

[Erik Basil]

We were on portions of the JMT two weeks ago (just now back from the trip) and crossed UL'ers at Thousand Island, and the passes at Ruby Lake and Garnet Lake. Three groups. We also met plenty of hikers that were carry large packs, as we were (despite all the UL tricks and tips we incorporate).

One thing very apparent with all three fast-moving, running-shoe wearing UL groups: not a bear canister among them. No carbon fiber chi-chi's, no blue Bear Vaults, not a single, boat-anchor Garcia. My boys found ways to ask, usually after someone commented on their packs. None of those crews has spare shoes, stools, fishing gear or free-standing tents. Two of them told us they shivered all night in the rain (6.5 hours) the night before, with rain blowing under their "tarps" up in the rocks below Donohue Pass.

We were 12 on trail, with 6 large Bear Vaults and 4 small for seven days on trail. We supplemented with a total of 14 trout, sizzled up in adobo seasoning, olive oil and an MSR skillet. We ate very well and donated a 2lb bag of nuts to hikers that told us they were running low on food. Cute packs, though. (And I am cutting back our nut cargo for the next one!)

A lady on the trailhead shuttle commented that my pack looked really heavy. A full Tioga XL with 15 pounds of food and water will do that, and it ain't no lie, even if I do use some very light gear.

[Jake D]

"None of those crews has spare shoes, stools, fishing gear or free-standing tents."

why would you 'need' any of that? camp shoes are a nice thing to add for a thru hike but not a necessity..

sounds like they did some stuff right and some stuff wrong… some UL techniques take skills that need to be practiced.. tarp pitching for example. not having enough warm clothing for the conditions also sucks.

i've seen heavy weight people be unprepared and have flooded tents, flipped over free standing tents… etc having a crapload of gear doesn't guarantee anything.

[David Thomas]

Steven: What you write is all true in the vast majority of stores.

But, . . . .

I was an early convert to REI after going shopping in 1976, when I was a boy scout, and someone in the boot department told me to buy a lighter and less expensive boot than I had planned to. One reduced sales ticket can equal decades of loyal patronage.

When I was working in a backpacking/ski shop, my goal was not to necessarily make the sale (that day), but to make the customer glad they came to our store first. If they needed a different item than what we sold, I'd tell them so, and tell them where to get it. Fewer sales that day, perhaps, but there were a lot of customers who would start at our store, even for stuff we didn't come close to carrying (like specialized rock or ice climbing gear).

For me, when I'm a customer, I don't want to wade through aisle of crap, a la Walmart to find the few quality items. I'd rather go someplace where everything has been pre-screened for quality.

That was also my modus operandi while working in computer stores in the 1970's. But that another era and computers are now a commodity, not a purchase researched for many months. And, yes, nerds do need to learn how to do the ask and wrap up a sale.

One of many problems is that commissions work, in the short term. Sales are up. But the experience is less pleasant and often less productive for the customer.

[Bean]

#4 – The customer is always right. Don't debate their decision no matter how uneducated their choice. If they like you, they will come back and buy the better item when they figure out they made a bad choice.

REI staff I don't think is taught #4. I routinely find myself lying to staff in REI, because if I tell them what something is for, they end up wasting a lot of time trying to talk me into something else.

Recently, I went in for new trail running shoes for my fiance. When she stated she did not want anything "waterproof", they asked her what she was using them for, and she of course proudly blurted out that they were for a 150+ mile backpacking trip. We spent the rest of that shoe buying experience getting sneered at, and having to defend the shoe over boot choice while continually explaining why we believed Gor-Tex didn't make a lot of sense for what we were doing.

[Stephen M]

My wife was purchasing a sleeping bag in REI last year and when I asked a question about fill power the sales persons eyes glazed over and had to ask a manager what fill power was. I was surprised as she working the sleeping bag section and not just so one we stopped.

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