enLIGHTened equipment product changes in Sept.

[BlackHatGuy]

"SO while im at it let me test the new name out on you guys. ENIGMA"

Hmmmmm. It is my feet, wrapped in down booties, inside an enigma. No mystery there!

I like it. Looking forward to seeing your new design Tim.

[Greg F]

Eventually I will buy a revX winter quilt to use as an overbag. 750 fill vs 850 fill wont make a difference for me. Price will.

I really like the idea of holding the price down on the entry level quilt and offering distinct tiers with your products.

I also think you are right that offering choice of down will just lead to more questions from the average customer and drive no more sales to your product. Weight wise you will still be very competitive.

Also offering pink / purple in the RevX fabric would be great. My 2 year old loves her pink protoge, and you could sell another one to my wife with a pink revX as she wont replace her 3 lb sythetic without going to a pink bag.

[michael levi]

I would add a drop down box with and choose which fill power to use. Let the customer have the option of spending more or less.

There's going to be people who don't buy because it's not 850, and some who don't because it's too expensive.

[Tim Marshall]

Looking for some new fabrics that might reduce the Revelation cost a little to close the gap some. Still really far off at this point but perhaps an option. Then you choose you fill by which product you choose and yes that fabric is still nicer than the 30d but the prices would get closer. Sourcing fabric for myself could be a game changer vs always going through a supplier. I'm starting the search well see where it leads.

-Tim

[Tanner M]

> Then you choose you fill by which product you choose…

Makes sense.

[Tim Marshall]

Any thoughts on bringing back the epiphany in some form?

If I do it will use the new baffles(sewn on like the early days), have a sewn side drawcord bottom foot box for venting and use a large nylon stripe on the shell for lofting and drying. It would use 850 downtek to deal with any moisture caused by the VB

thoughts?

-Tim

[David Alexander]

I would love to see that!

[Jason Mahler]

Sourcing yourself can make sense, but this will likely only be a benefit about certain purchase quantities. With your current business model that may have 4 styles of down and a couple dozen fabrics (denier and color), it might be tough to get enough of a price break to count for much.

As for offering 850 in a RevX, it seems like there would be little incentive to upgrade to Rev, which would reduce its market. Add in the fact that the Enigma will further reduce the Rev market and I am not certain there would be much left. Not a big deal if using similar materials as either low or high end products.

How much more weight vs cost reduction in going to 700 or even 650 for a RevX? This would provide a lot more differentiation and allow the Rev to be more of a midline product.

[Stephen Barber]

Back in the day (like 40 years ago) Betsy and I had sleeping bags filled with duck down. We used them for a number of years, mostly in Oregon, until we bought some lighter goose down bags. I don't think they were 750, probably not even 650! But they showed no collapsing over the time we used them. We still have a duck down comforter on our bed that is about 25 years old and still doing fine.

Based on this experience, I would expect 750 duck down to perform decently, but…it might not be quite as endurable as goose, and there is the public perception to deal with.

[James Marco]

Duck down is good. It often weighs a bit more, ie doesn't loft as well, but don't forget eider down is still considered the best. Eider is a duck. All duck downs resist water slightly better than goose down. So you get the benefit of added security in a wet environment. Generally the down feathers are a bit smaller, though they are a bit "stickier." Overfill is usually not needed.

Unlike the 900fill goose downs, they maintain loft even when damp. The newer dri-down may do better, this is a question in my mind. Generally lower fill downs (750-800) do better on long (>3 week) trips. 900 fill down tends to loose loft when damp.

Kind of a toss up, which you should choose to offer, Tim. I lean torwards durability and pay for that an a few extra ounces of weight. 900 fills are good for a week or two under damp conditions. 800 fill downs are good for 2-3 weeks. After a month on the trail, you cannot tell the difference between 750 and 900 if you encounter rain three or four times.

Good down has a shorter life expectancy, also. The fibers are finer, easily damaged by rolling around on it. Again, more of a toss up. You could easily justify whatever decision you make.

[Rocco Speranza]

I've read though most of what was posted here. I really like the ideas shown. Having bought a 10F RevX and a 40F RevX I'm really happy with them. The one thing I could get my head around is how you made them so cheap relatively, but I see you are fixing that now. Of course me and many others aren't going to complain about that though. ;)

I feel a price raise is in order for your quilts, or if anything lower the material quality and keep the same price. I'm thinking 3 types of Down quilts. (Can Substitute with Synthetic I guess)

Quilt 1:
Have your cheap RevX with 750 fill and maybe a cheaper 40D+ fabric if that's possible. (Maybe not even offer higher than 30D to keep it simpler.)(Also maybe add the option for 850 water resistant down at a larger price premium than the other quilts or not at all.)

Quilt 2:
This will be like the Rev now. Default to lighter material and 850 fill down. Give the option for 900 fill down and water resistant down.

Quilt 3. Cuben quilt with ability to have hybrid material. Same additional options as option 2.

Universal options:
1. Sewn foot box with length(Probably more popular for winter quilts)
2. The Water resistant down.

Probably will edit this…

[Peter Nash]

Tim, somebody should sell Cuben fiber quilts. As far as I know, you were the only source other than MYOG. Cuben is the ultimate choice for a technical, high-end quilt option. But Cuben fiber cries out for the highest fill power available. If someone is buying Cuben they will not mind paying for the highest fill power down.

After I acquired an Epiphany earlier this year I was immediately sold on Cuben fiber quilts. (In fact, your quilts inspired me to make my own. I just finished my 2nd one, a 19 oz. three season quilt, after having made a 10 oz. summer one a month ago.) Whether you use 850 fill power or 900, downtek or not, count me as a strong vote for bringing the Epiphany back.

I do think that the baffles should not be sewn to the liner because it would detract from the vapor barrier benefit of the Cuben fiber. In fact, arguably downtek would be less indicated for a taped cuben quilt because there would be little chance for vapor to get inside.

I like the name Enigma alot, and I like the radically light weights you're aiming for. I also prefer sewn footboxes over drawcords.

It doesn't make sense to confuse your product lines by offering higher fill power as an option on the RevX. From both a production and marketing standpoint I think your instincts are right. Offer only 750 down on that line.

I'm keen to see your Enigma.

[Rocco Speranza]

I'll change my post above. I think you should stick with the 750fill for the low end as well. Make people upgrade if they really want that extra weight savings and there will be a larger weight gap between the models then.

[Gregory Hardy]

Hi Tim (and BPL),

Have you thought about using an efficient Enigma-type design (i.e. sewn footbox with less material) with the Prodigy line? Due to weight, people usually dismiss synthetics, no questions asked. But I think you could change this, or at least have people give synthetics a second thought. To my knowledge there is no option for a synthetic quilt that can come within 2-3 ounces of its down alternative in weight. But Tim, I think you can change this, close the synthetic-down gap, and revive the synthetic market. Okay, maybe thats a little ambitious but here's my logic why:

Creating demand: A real option with synthetic quilts

A 40*F quilt is an essential temp rating to have in almost everyone’s sleep arsenal. At this temp rating, the weight disparity between down and synthetic is minimized. Below are the weight differences (and prices) between the 40*F Prodigy, Revelation, and new Enigma.

A. 40* Prodigy = 18.5 oz, $190 (6’ Slim, which is generously wide at 50”).
B. 40* Revelation = 14 oz, $240 (6’ slim, but likely jump to $260 ish in sept).
C. 40* Enigma ≈ 11oz, $350 ish (5’10” reg size)

The current Prodigy is 7.5 oz heavier then the new Enigma, but only 4.5 oz heavier then the Revelation. Due to the high cost of the Enigma (and Z packs) the reality is that the majority of people can’t afford it. So now it’s only a comparison between the Revelation and the Prodigy, thus a 4.5 oz difference. BUT if you could re-work maybe 2 oz off the Prodigy with a re-designed foot box (16.5 oz total), then its only 2.5 oz heavier than its 850 down alternative.

So why would you want to sacrifice 2.5 oz and rock synthetics??? Three reasons.

1) This “new” Prodigy would be $70 cheaper than the revelation.
2) The increase in versatility of synthetics over down. Wet down is useless, wet hydrophobic down is less useless but still not really useful, wet synthetic is still very useful.
3) Using a synthetic quilt can change your entire sleep system to match, and overcome this 2.5 oz difference. Without having to be cautious about wetting your down, you could use that 3.7 oz Wasatch bivy and not have to worry about condensation from the less-than-optimal breathability. You could use a smaller tarp because you don’t need the extra protection from rain’s backsplash. A 5.5’ x 9’ tarp is now a 4’ x 8’ tarp. For silnylon tarps, that’s about a 2-3 oz difference alone. OR, you could not bring a tarp (stakes and guylines) at all and rely on natural cover when it rains.

Market domination:

You could own the synthetic quilt market because it seems like there are just two major players in synthetics: you and MLD spirit quilts, which have almost identical specs (considering sizes and temp ratings) to your Prodigy line. Right now, there is really nothing separating you and MLD except for some minor size differences (which I guess could be a big deal to some people).

This argument holds less weight if someone introduces a 40* F, 11oz down quilt for around $260 instead of $360. I think (hope) this can happen, but it wouldn’t destroy the demand for the new UL Prodigy since synthetic will always have its niche, and you would still be the lightest option.

Those are my thoughts. I’d be interested to hear what you (and BPL) think about this. Thanks!

[Tim Marshall]

I appreciate everyone's input. I'll be weighing your comments against samples and numbers to come up with what i hope is the right balance for each product.

Greg, I will most likely offer something with a closed footbox in synthetics down the road after i see the merits of it in the Enigma line first.

The issue is the footbox will be harder to do right in synthetics, not impossible but harder. It also wont be as big of a weight difference as the Down one changes footbox and uses 15% less down due to the increased baffle efficiency so two parts are at play but certainly a lower weight would still be gained from the footbox.

The biggest problem with synthetics isn't weight but bulk. The sewn footbox will reduce overall quilt length and therefore bulk but not in a significant way. They are still very bulky when compared to down and thats tough.

Synthetic above 45* has always been my preference, until my new Enigma was born. I'll be playing with that now at 10.05oz i cant get that low in a 50* prodigy of the same size even with a sewn footbox, im still around 13.5oz in that

-Tim

[Tanner M]

> The issue is the footbox will be harder to do right in synthetics, not impossible but harder.

I can second that…

Frankenfoot is fairly easy.
A not-sewn-through foot is another thing.

[Tim Marshall]

For 40 and 50* quilts we could do the simple sewn through one we did on the summer blanket but for colder than that wed want to do it different to keep it warm

-Tim

[Ben H.]

Tim,

Thanks for the breakdown on why you are reluctant to offer upgraded down on the revX line. It makes sense, though currently you seem to be getting a distinction between rev and revx and offering the same down in both lines.

From my perspective 750 down seems like bottom basement down for a cottage bag (which is why I don't think it matters as much if you use duck or goose). It makes sense to use it so that you can offer a low starting point. But if you don't offer the upgrade to your current offering you might lose many of your current customers who are looking for the optimum price vs performance point. That's the customer I was when I bought a revx from you. If you want to stay in the game for those price vs. performance customers you should move to 800 fill down. Psychologically, 800 does not feel as steep of a down-grade from 850 as 750 does. 800 feels like a compromise. 750 feels like I am going for the cheapest I can get.

Another option you might consider is to only offer color choices in the rev line and higher. That might let you buy fabric in bulk for your revx line and save some money. Frankly I don't think people in your revx line care as much about color as your higher end customers.

If you downgrade your revx too much to have better distinction in your line, you may loose customers who fall between your lines.

[Gregory Hardy]

Hm, I didnt think about the difficulty of making a not-sewn-through foot box with the synthetic. And its bulk is still an issue, youre right. I am looking to use synthetic for sustained bikepacking trips, and was just dreaming about having the Prodigy40 at 1 lb. But the Prodigy40 is already a great weight on a great synthetic quilt, so it makes sense to knock out the Enigma first. I just hope you don't forget about the Prodigy fans out there : )

Cant wait to see the Enigma, thanks Tim!

[USA Duane Hall]

Tim,
I ran out of money this Spring waiting for the cuben fiber quilts to come back out. When you offered them again, they did not stay listed on your site for long, I have not checked for a bit now. So as you mentioned to me personally, they still did not sell I'm guessing. One of a couple items I want this coming Spring is a quilt, but the lowest weight I can get in a 30F, price not a big concern, but still within reason. For me, I believe a sewn footbox is lighter and anything else to get the weight down. I'll be checking your lineup out later.
Keep up the thinking.
Duane

[Tim Marshall]

Im not sure where the epiphany fits. I always loved it but rarely sold it. Sewn baffles are stronger, taped more waterproof but the tape adds an oz to the weight which now that we have 10D really cuts the weight savings back. If customers would be willing to seam seal that would be the lightest and most robust way to approach solving the problem but is in no way the most elegant. Nylon needs to be added to the shell layer to increase lofting and allow more effective field drying but that adds in weight and reduces weather resistance so im left wanting it but not knowing where to position it for success and validity in the market

On another note we stuffed some sample 6' WIDE 20* RevX with 750 and 800 goose down fills. The 800 is impossible to tell from 850 in the quilt expect it weighs an oz more. The 750 however feels more full and complete throughout the quilt and results in an extra 1" of loft at the cost of another oz of weight. I hadn't expected it to loft more at all. I have read studies that indicate that <=750 downs maintain their loft better over time and across varying levels of humidity than >=800 downs but i didn't expect an extra 1" of loft (this is two layer loft as i measured and observed it so .5" single layer)

These quilts are being tested by my staff for the next week and we will weigh and measure them again along with accessing their feedback to help us dial in the right choice. Just thought id share my surprise in the noticeably fuller 750 quilt, crazy

-Tim

[Tanner M]

I really have no experience with down stuff. Only recently learned I had outgrown childhood allergies. Yeah, I know it isn't supposed to be the down but stuff living in it..

Anyway, I have wondered that the really fluffy stuff may not always fluff so well if the user binds the covering even a little. Light shells seem to be needed. etc.

800 is +1 oz. v. 850 (makes sense according to 'formula')
750 is +1 oz, v. 800 for a total of +2 oz. v. 850 ?
[to be sure I follow correctly]

You get an extra half inch or so of loft. That might take another ounce or two for the 'fragile/delicate' 850 to achieve… So not far from parity ? [it is interesting]

I am really close to trying to build me a quilt. Why not. I am thinking about 1.4x or so versus the 'formula fill' for good firmness in the torso and maybe a bit less in the sides/wings. With 850. Because I worry it will not always fluff like 850 /can/….

[Tanner M]

When you stuffed the quilts, was it at the typical 'formula' fill ? In any case, I figure any overstuff or whatever was consistent between the fills. So doesn't really matter.

So, the 750 fill may not weigh much different by time you either remove some 750 to get the loft you want/targeted or add more 850 to get loft equal to the 750…

Yeah, there is supposed to be more than just loft involved with warmth. Density, as well. I figure your 850 sample fill isn't very dense :)

So, 750 isn't supposed to compress as well. I wonder, though, if there is really much difference by time the 750 and 850 quilts are adjusted to have the same loft (presumably similar warmth) by either adding or subtracting down from one or the other. Maybe they will pack about the same size then…?

[James Marco]

I believe you will find that the extra 1" lofting difference of the 750fill down is actually about the same warmth as the 850fill down.

Usually higher fill downs have larger and better developed down feathers than lower fill downs. This means that the air pockets are actually smaller, thus more efficient at stopping convective currents through the down. I am not sure of the exact numbers, but using proportions based on 900fill as the maximum you have 750/900 compared with 850/900, or, .8333 and .9444 for relative warmth, hence, relative heat retension properties (assuming 900fill down would be 1.000.)

Soo, to retain the identical warmth of 900fill down over 4" of loft, you would need about 4.2303 inches of 850 fill down or about 4.8000 inches of 750 fill down. (This is the inverse of the heat retention for four inches of down insulation.)

Given the differences in down rating is not absolute (it varies by year and batch) and the weight of the shell layer compressing it slightly, it is reasonable to assume that the 1" you are seeing is about correct if they are both the same temp rating. For example:
The 750 could be an actual 725 legitimatly for a 4.9655 lofting, for example.
The 850 could be an actual 875 legitimatly for a 4.1142 lofting, for example.

This assumes you maintain a rather exact equivalency in fill amounts in each, of course.

I would rather think the one inch difference was through intentional calculation (like the above) rather than any real error. Note that 1 inch in 2 inches of loft is a LOT. But, I am guessing they would be of similar warmth, give or take.

[michael levi]

I think it would benifit people if you clearly stated the weights of the quilts.

You are including bungee straps and the stuff sack in the weights where they are in fact lighter than advertised. Or so I think, unless my quilt is underfilled.

Maybe I missed this but with the new quilt design just how much lighter will a 50* Prodigy be? Right now it is 15oz for a 6ft reg.

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