Best Pack size for Overnighter?

[Kevin Schneringer]

well I have a tarp and bivy now, I use an alcohol stove and 600ml cup etc.
Learned lots on BPL. I am looking to shrink my pack size.
I have room in my 42L pack so I am looking for ideas on 30L ish size packs.

Looking for ideas from seasoned guys on getting a Just Right pack size.

[Mary D]

I have only one backpack. It's 40 L and I can carry up to 10 days' stuff in it if necessary. For me the only difference between one night and 9 nights is the amount of food, and possibly an extra pair of dry socks if I anticipate a wet trip. For a short trip I just compress the pack down more.

The only best pack is the one that (1) fits you, (2) fits your gear and (3) is comfortable for you with your gear in it. Pack fit is almost as individual as shoe fit. In other words, pack size is a personal question that can be answered only by packing your gear in the pack, trying on the pack and carrying the pack around for several hours.

[David Chenault]

Mary, you are no fun at all.

The perfect pack size for overnighters in non-gnarly conditions (i.e. the pack 90% of people will use 95% of the time) is 28 liters. This will translate to a pack body 24-28 inches tall, 9-10 inches wide, and 6-8 inches deep (depending on contouring the sides, etc). It's not really possible to make a pack smaller than this which is long enough to have a usable hipbelt for most adults, and not so shallow that awkward objects just do not fit. A lot of the time you won't use a belt, but when you need to haul all your water or just want to haul a six pack and steak dinner it's a good option. 28 liters is big enough for the aforementioned luxury summer overnight load, as well as big enough for an early winter trip or peak bagging trip if you pack light. A pack of this volume is small enough that you don't need compression straps, as it will be full on any trip anyway.

There's a reason the MLD Newt, Golite Ion, and the like are so popular. Everyone should have a pack like this.

As far as commerical options: the Newt is the lightest and most basic, the GG Kumo is a full featured option, and you can get whatever you want features-wise from Zpacks in this size. HMG missed the boat a bit by making packs on either side of this, IMO they'd be better off scraping the 2400 line and make the Summit pack taller. The Osprey Talon 33 is a bit on the big and heavy side, but a decent option. And of course the Cilogear 30 liter, Cold Cold World Ozone, and Blue Ice Warthog 26 for the climbers, canyoneers, and those who beat their packs senseless.

[David Ure]

Golite Jam 35

[Bob Gross]

In the old days, I estimated pack volume requirements this way. For each 10 pounds of total load, I needed about 1000 cubic inches of pack volume. So, for 50 pounds, I needed 5000 cubic inches. However, that was way back then.

Now I find that my lightweight or ultralightweight gear is much denser than before. So, for each ten pounds of total load, I now need about 800 cubic inches of pack volume. Then all that gets fouled up with a bear canister, because I never seem to get the food packed into it with the same density as without a bear canister.

–B.G.–

[Pete Staehling]

I like my REI Flash 22 and Flash 30 pretty well.

[Dena Kelley]

I did all my overnighters last year with a 40L GoLite Speedpack (which I think they count the outside mesh as part of the 40L). My gear is a little bulky. I'm sure there are folks here using smaller for overnighters.

[Eugene Smith]

The one that fits whatever it is you desire to bring along.

[CW]

The one that fits whatever it is you desire to bring along.

+1

[Adam Rothermich]

I've got a 32L OMM Classic and a 54L Borah Gear Stealth. Those two packs cover everything I do. I mostly use the OMM for day trips and hardly ever fill it but for trail work its just the right size. For summer overnighters I can fit everything into it but it gets a little tight if I have to add an insulating top. Most backpacking trips I use my Borah Gear Stealth, and before that a ULA Conduit. I did a week long trip with the Conduit but the most I've done with the Stealth is a weekend. When the pack's not full of other stuff I just let my quilt loft up and take the extra space. That's a lot cheaper than having a closet full of packs in every conceivable size.

Adam

[Joel Benford]

How do you go about carrying and accessing water in a pack like the MLD Newt, with no pockets/hydration slot/etc? Just accept that it'll take an extra minute, or is it all about add-on shoulder strap bottle holders and so on?

[Anonymous]

Lately for (solo) overnighters i've been using the Sea to Summit Ultra Sil Day pack, which is only 20L. But, i also don't bring stove/cookset on these trips, there is usually plentiful water where i usually hike, and i don't have the appetite of the typical over fed, Westernized grizzly bear. (if hiking with my wife, i bring a bigger pack and let her carry the Sea to Summit one).

But this little pack allows me to pack all the essentials for my trips, EE 40 degree quilt, Stoic Hadron jacket (don't always bring), S.t.S NANO bug net (don't always bring), poncho tarp w/ cord and some stakes (don't always bring), NeoAir all season medium pad, Sawyer squeeze filter & bag, kite tyvek bivy (don't always bring and if i don't, i bring polycryo for groundsheet), headlamp, and pair of warm sleeping socks. I'm actually surprised how much i can fit in there.

If you pack really light weight, you don't need any bells and whistles of hip belt, etc. Some people may need a sternum strap with this pack, but i sewed some linen-poly material onto part of the slippery shoulder straps and don't need a sternum strap. I also like that it's innately highly water resistant–minus the zipper area and seems.

Anyways, not ideal for most people, and i doubt the durability is all that great, especially not for people that do a lot of bushwacking, but it works for me so far. Oh, and it weighs less than 3 oz stock (the linen-poly on the straps adds a little extra).

[Kevin R]

I’ve been using a 50L pack (Jam2) for the past decade, but am thinking about getting something that can double as a day pack and summer overnight/weekend pack.  Any thoughts on the best size for this? I haven’t checked recently, but my summer BPW should be a bit under 10 lbs. Bulky items other than food include a cuben Solomid, 40 degree quilt, and Neoair Xtherm (I’ve been thinking about getting a dedicated summer pad, but the minimal weight savings and cost haven’t made that a priority). I’ve been looking at a 32L pack (including side pockets and front sleeve), but am concerned that it might be tight volume wise…

[Kevin Babione]

Reviving old threads always throws me off…I thought Bob Gross was back before I noticed that the previous posts were more than 5 years ago!

Anyway, my summer/single night pack is currently a 1st generation GG Murmur.  I’m looking at replacing it and am seriously considering the Little River Packs Peak 30L at just 10 ounces and $175.

[Kevin R]

That’s a nice looking pack.  I had never heard of him, but it looks like he makes some nice gear!

[AK Granola]

I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can get by with such small volume packs. Of course, where I live a warm baselayer is always necessary. But still, I look at my overnight pack and it looks just like my 6 day one. Food is the only difference. It must just be the warm stuff I need that you guys don’t, that takes up the volume. Even the weight, I’m still just annoyed that I cannot get it down more.

[James Marco]

Karen, a lot of the stuff you want to bring is actually unnecessary. For example, a stuff sack for a tarp. Mine *just* fills my pot letting me do triple duty with my pot: cooking, water and tarp protection in the pack (both from water in the tarp getting in my gear and from abrasion from other things in my pack.) Sticking with the “double duty” philosophy allows you to remove a lot of unnecessary gear.

Double duty can lead to traps. For example using a spoon as a stake. Well, if I am cooking under my tarp in a rain storm, I NEED my spoon…a trap. You cannot use an item in two places at the same time.

Skill often substitutes for a piece of hardware. As an example, a spoon is all I bring. I can make chopsticks for some sort of grabber, or, whittle a forked stick to make a fork. Spoons are more difficult to make/whittle so I bring the spoon and drop the fork and knife. (I always have a pocket knife, usually a Gerber LST.) Again, this is reliance on a skill to replace a piece of hardware or item in the pack.

You need to identify which items you *cannot* make do double duty. Things like a stove have a single purpose, to make hot food/water. Yes, I have only used a campfire, but pots get sooty…transferring that soot to everything. Use a sack? Well, then we are adding more gear and weight. Gathering wood, starting a fire, in the rain, well, it is all work… Follow? A stove burns far cleaner besides saving time setting up and cleaning up after eating. Choose the lightest/smallest piece of gear that will still do the job, if you MUST have that piece of gear.

Avoid framed packs. Anything with a frame means the pack cannot be rolled up to use as a pillow. This means the pack is doing double duty, too.

Get a good down quilt or bag. Get a good down jacket. In a pinch, you can wear your jacket under your quilt for an extra 10F boost in temp rating. Keep them dry. A good, small dry/compression bag will let you put your jacket, bag, long johns and socks in it, *and* compress it down to around 10″ long so it fits into your pack. Even in pouring rain, your sleeping gear will always be dry. The compression bag turns inside out and gets stuffed with the pack (even wet) as a complete pillow.

Bring all food dehydrated. Or, as dry as can be had. I usually head out with about a pound per day for me. That works out to around 2500C/day or about 155C/oz. Pemican, ghee, olive oil, cocoa, coffee, dehydrated cooked rice, dehydrated cooked beans, dried beef, dried fish, peperoni/sausages, soup mixes, lentils, peas, corn, green beans, onions, etc make up the bulk on longer trips. Average is just under 150C/oz for a two week trip. This will keep your food bag as small as possible without starving. I have extra on my belly that I can use, but I need at least 2500C/day to avoid getting tired and bonking/hitting the wall.

Take a good look at your gear and see what you can minimize. A small Impulse light does everything a larger flashlight does except night hiking. Even that is possible in a pinch. It weighs about 5/8oz and will last around 8hours.

Take a good wilderness first aid course. You will learn that most injuries are minor: blisters, cuts and scrapes. Fuel (alky) makes an OK sterilizer. Toilet paper makes an OK pad when dipped in alky. Duct tape just keeps it in place. All double duty stuff from a UL packer’s kit. Duct tape makes a good substitute “callus” over blisters once you clean and sterilize the blister. It also patches up rips, pokes and tears in your gear. A 1″ roll (about 2 yards) is plenty most of the time. In a severe injury, plan on lots of pain before you get out. Bring a small packet of pills (maybe 4 good pain pills.)

A good rule of thumb for UL packing is ONE POUND. One pound for your pack. One pound for your shelter. One pound for your sleeping bag/quilt. One pound for your ditty bag (odds and ends: stakes, spoon, bear line, spare batteries, Steripen, tape, etc.) One pound for your hiking sweater/rain gear. One pound for socks, long johns, down jacket. One pound for cooking gear (stove, fuel, pot, lid, water bottles.) One pound for sacks(ditty bag, food bag, eVent bag) One pound total leeway on the above. And one pound in luxury items(I use this towards my NeoAir.) One pound per day for food, but this actually doesn’t count towards base weight. As an example, this will all fit into a 35L Murmur for two weeks out and just fill it. About half the volume is food. And more than half the weight is food. Typically, my pack weight for two weeks out is around 23-25 pounds. ‘Corse, I can drop a LOT of this to SUL weights and have a smaller pack for weekends, but I rarely go out for that little time.

The whole kit is good to about 30F and with some slight overage on the bag, can hit 20F easily(I think there was a 5oz overage for 20F.) You can hike down to around 30F with a sweater and your rain gear. At camp, you need the jacket. Ofcourse, hiking at 20F often means additional clothing and gear.

It can be done, mostly by applying the above rules. In later fall, winter and early spring, I just add more clothing. I will often buy a heavier, smaller item rather than buy simply the lightest item. Small volume usually means an instant overall weight savings…often in the form of a smaller, lighter pack. The little 3oz bags mentioned above work pretty well for short two night outings for example. It drops 10oz over the Murmur, for example.

[Roger Caffin]

Avoid framed packs. Anything with a frame means the pack cannot be rolled up to use as a pillow.
I am going to have to totally disagree with James here. Frameless packs cannot carry a load nearly as well as a framed pack: see Ryan J’s old article on torso lengths of a number of packs:
https://backpackinglight.com/00194-2/
and also an engineering analysis of torso length:
https://backpackinglight.com/00179-2/
Many people have commented here and elsewhere that a framed pack will let you carry a bigger load in greater comfort and with less effort than a frameless pack.

To be sure, if your total pack weight is under 5 lb, a frameless pack might be OK – but such a pack will roll up far to small to make a decent pillow!

Well, my 2c.

Cheers

[James Marco]

Roger, I haven’t used a framed pack in many years, though the old MiniPosa has stays. I picked up a HMG Southwest this spring but it is way larger than I need and I don’t use it much…more for Sherpa trips with my wife, daughters and grandkids.

The frameless packs are good to about 20-25 pounds. I am always around that weight for two weeks out, so, I guess I haven’t needed a frame in about 20 years or so (I still have an old Kelty around, and, an old Tough Traveler.) Too bad I wasted all that money on them.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi James

We may have different definitions for what is a ‘frame’. To me, a frameless pack has zero internal structure: it is just a simple fabric bag and nothing more. But if the pack has stays or rods or even an ABS sheet down the back, in my book it has a ‘frame’.

Put another way: if there is any mechanism in the pack which prevents the collapse of the pack along the length of the spine, then I say it has a frame. The old Kelty packs are at one end of the spectrum; some modern UL packs with an ABS sheet down the back, or maybe a couple of aluminium stays down the back, are towards the other end of the spectrum. Ultimately, what matters to me is whether the pack changes torso length under load.

This does leave open the Q of whether putting a rolled-up foam mat around the inside of a pack constitutes a ‘frame’. In practice such packs do collapse a bit along the torso length, unless the bag is packed really tight. I would put such packs into the frameless class.

My 2c.

Cheers

[Matthew / BPL]

My $.02 is that a well packed frameless pack can have good structure and fits in a much more comfortable manner than a framed pack. I’m good up to the low 20# range with this type of setup. My pack doesn’t sag and has meaningful load transfer to the waistbelt. I do have to pack it with more care than a framed pack in order to make it work but the payoff is comfort. YMMV

[James Marco]

Matthew, Yes, we are in agreement. Most Gossamer Gear packs include a pair of pad keepers on the back of the pack. I simply use a fan-fold five layer Nightlite torso pad in these. I don’t think they stock them anymore, shipping nearly doubled the price, but Nunatak offers the same pad: http://www.nunatakusa.com/site07/accessories/lunapad.htm

Roger, It depends on your definition of frame. To me a frame is any connected pieces to stiffen the back panel. For the MiniPosa, there are a couple stays (I have a couple tarp poles that fit into the stay pockets I use with my tarp.) These are unconnected rods and move independently. The HMG also has a couple stays. Again, these move independently. On both packs, they are more towards the side of the pack and not really along the spine. While walking, the pack will flex slightly with the movement of your hips and work pretty well for comfort.

Pads can be configured (cut and taped) to match the internal dimensions of any pack. But these often have the disadvantage of creeping up a little in use. They really need an upper “stop.” GG provides this with the pad keepers. When carried inside, you loose the 400ci or so that GG ignores with the external pad keepers. Internally, they don’t work quite as well, though it does pull the weight closer to your back, and, provides some support in the 30-40 pound range, just as most frameless packs start breaking down. The external mount (pad keepers) do a better job with support and I typically carry a 30-35pound training pack (Murmur with a couple dumbbells) on my daily walks.

The GG Gorilla/Mariposa has an internal partial frame. This is an upside down “U” shaped piece. (Now days, it will actually connect to the hip belt allowing an extra 10-20 pounds of carrying capacity. I complained loudly about the frame being upside down and they changed to a hip-belt mount the next year.) The Tough Traveler has an internal frame. This is a “U” shaped piece of magnesium rod that mounts directly to the hip belt at the bottom. These work pretty well, but at 45# they both make me rather tired after 10miles up the hills around here. I don’t believe this is a limitation on the packs. (I used to carry ~70#-75# playing Sherpa with my family.) More a product of being too old to carry that much weight…

The Kelty style frames are just heavy. For heavy loads (I would take mine out hunting,) these were great. But, there is no way I could haul a deer out today.

[Roger Caffin]

But, there is no way I could haul a deer out today.
Which is why UL has become so popular maybe? :)
Yeah, same boat.

Cheers

[AK Granola]

James, I could not get by hiking at 30 F and pouring rain with a sweater and a rain jacket. Where I live that’s the hypothermia express! Because it won’t be an afternoon shower, it could be days of constant rain and blasting wind, and waking up to snow the next day. I would need hat, gloves, spare socks, and my baselayer at that temp is wool, which is heavy, not lame synthetic. I just don’t burn that hot without help.

I just got back from a cabin weekend with friends, (low overnight 10F) and I used every single thing in my pack except a few bandaids and some pills, and a small emergency blanket, all of which take practically no space. My pack is 60L and weighed 22 pounds including three days food and 2 liters water. There was nothing, not one thing, that wasn’t used. I had one granola bar, some dried fruit, and one uneaten dinner left (I didn’t know one friend was bringing dinner to share for all). As I unpacked, I really couldn’t imagine not taking anything I had with me. Even the spare batteries I had were needed for a lantern in the cabin. I got my socks wet on a stream crossing on the way in, and used my spare pair to get warm in the frozen cabin before the fire warmed us up. After arrival, we still had to find water in the dark, and get a fire started; I was pretty happy to have my extra socks and Woolies to change into while setting up.

And there  are no rangers, and we saw no one until our last day out, and then only two parties. Could have been no one, easily, so no counting on help. No cell service. Maybe I’m just as lean as I can get given my location.

[James Marco]

Well, you are talking about winter weather. Generally, I get snow at 30F, it usually melts on my rain jacket. In winter, of course you need more warmth, I bring a couple pair of long johns, extra socks, an extra jacket, and a fleece sweater. Most of these are in a size large so they don’t get too tight. And my old Go-Lite bag (~60L.) No, I do not fool with cold weather. The old Northern Lites work pretty well. As does larger shoes extra kneelength socks over my regular hiking socks, Smartwool/merino wool base layers (one light synthetic one and one heavy at 10F.) My winter sweater is heavy and wool, too. The rain jacket tries to keep me from getting too wet in a snow shower and mostly closes off the pores in the sweater. My biggest problem used to be sweating. I usually just used my rain jacket partially zipped.

But, I was talking about travel at 30-45F down to 20F at night. Not winter travel. It gets down to -30F around here in the winter in the hills. I think they had -90 at Whiteface this year. No, I wasn’t out then. As I said, my UL gear is good to about 20F, maybe a couple degrees colder. If the nights are going to be colder I bring the extra gear. Often, a MontBel 0 (actually a 10F bag) for starters.

The human body only produces about ~70Watts of heat. You need well insulated clothing to keep this heat in winter. That is all you have…

Using everything in your pack is good. This indicates you don’t need anything else. Good luck and have fun!

[Author]

Posts