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External Frame Packs?
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Feb 25, 2013 at 2:34 pm #1958599
Our favourite Mod Roger Caffin uses a MYOG external frame pack that weighs under 1kg (~2.2lb).
He has even has a page showing his design
Feb 25, 2013 at 2:43 pm #1958603Here's an option for those of you who like to make your own gear.
Feb 25, 2013 at 2:46 pm #1958606pff just go packboard Hut Croo style.. (do repeated resupply loads for 3-6 months.. become a beast)
Feb 25, 2013 at 3:21 pm #1958620and no waist belts. like movers they like to keep the weight on their shoulders.
Feb 25, 2013 at 3:32 pm #1958623From what i've seen they tend to hike like they are posing there.. hands on the bottom rails to help take some of the load. regularly do 50-80lbs with 100lb load being a prized accomplishment.
Feb 25, 2013 at 4:10 pm #1958636I would like to see a leaner smaller external frame sized for modern UL loads. The pack bags can be changed and canisters and other things cold be strapped to it. The size of traditional externals seem too big for lighter loads and more compact gear. Would love to see what some modern external deigns would be like.
Feb 25, 2013 at 4:46 pm #1958647Brian:
Like Mr. Fowler, I am also working on a UL external frame, although, you are likely to see his before mine. I think there is a lot of potential for UL externals. Time, and the market, will tell I suppose.Feb 25, 2013 at 4:51 pm #1958651What I have done is used an old but beautiful Trailwise external frame that weighs 2 lbs 8 ozs. with just the frame, shoulder straps, waist belt and back mesh but no packbag. Laid down my silnylon Rayway tarp and put all my gear in it. And then wrapped it up neatly and tied it to the frame using a diamond hitch. I haven't used this set up often. Kind of just an experiment. I realize it puts my shelter at risk being used as the packbag/wrap. I've thought about sewing a lighter pack bag or using a silnylon ground cloth as a substitute for the tarp. But I haven't done that yet. It's not ultra light but it is very comfortable. I think I could carry quite a bit with it–but I don't want to.
Diamond hitch video
Feb 25, 2013 at 4:56 pm #1958657My kelty has a MUCH higher center of gravity than my Lowe internal, which causes me to work more on rocky ”stair step like” trails. I think if the pack bag was attached 12” lower it would probably fix this problem.
The Kelty is also a lot wider, causing it to catch lots of branches on the trail, which almost pulls me over backwards sometimes. I think making the frame and pack bag 9-12” narrower, and mounting the bag lower would fix this.
The frame bars hit my shoulders when I swing my arms when walking naturally but quickly. I think making the frame narrower would fix this.
The many extra pockets were always ” not quite big enough to fit my filter, bowl, wind shell, etc, and I could never remember which pocket had which small item – so I ended up packing everything in the main compartment, and 1 big (lid sized) pocket.
The external pack swayed around when I walked. It didn't pull me around on rocky trails but an internal frame pack was much easier to hike with through rock / boulder fields.
The internal frame pack fit much better in a canoe or inside a tent, or in my car.
Feb 25, 2013 at 4:59 pm #1958660Thanks for the input. if I got the Kelty, it wouldn't be for moving fast or bushwhacking. Still, as you're not the first person to say this, I am giving more consideration.
I think I'll try one of the school Kelty's out for a weekend trip.
Feb 25, 2013 at 5:25 pm #1958669Max:
if you are undecided, check out Craigslist and eBay. You should be able to find an old jansport or kelty for $20. Cheap way to find out if you like it before buying a new model. Unless of course you can borrow one for a weekend.Feb 25, 2013 at 6:30 pm #1958697I like the following features of an external frame pack because they allow me to experiment with and fine tune the fit and use of the pack:
(1) Frame can be adjusted upward or downward on waist belt.
(2) Bag can be adjusted upward or downward on the frame.
(3) Waist belt, shoulder straps frame and bag can be replaced independently because they typically aren't sewn to each other.Feb 25, 2013 at 6:35 pm #1958699Some classics on Craigslist up here.
Really on trail they are fine.
Feb 25, 2013 at 9:50 pm #1958755Started with external frame packs way back when (no-name Boy Scout, REI, Trailwise). Switched to internal frame in the 1980s – MUCH more comfortable, and smaller volume meant I had to carry less, enforcing a kind of lightweight discipline.
Skipping ahead to early 2000s, tried a variety of internal frame packs that handled traditional weights poorly. Tried the Luxurylite, but I hated the fit and the rigid frame (other people love them). So went back to internal frame and learned to pack much lighter! I can tolerate occasional overloads to 35 lbs (e.g. long water carries), YMMV.
I sweat like a pig with either internal or external frames, no major difference for me. A good synthetic t-shirt works wonders.
HMG Windrider is my current pack of choice.
Generally speaking, if you want light weight and comfort, internal frames work best. If you want or need to carry a lot of weight, check out external frames.
Feb 26, 2013 at 6:22 am #1958799Generally speaking, if you want light and narrow at the expense of comfort and ventilation, the internal- or frameless-backpacks and rucksacks are better.
If you want comfort, ventilation, high-placement of your load and/or the ability to carry more load, an external-framed pack will be better.
If you want what's most trendy, the last few decades give you an internal frame and these days you need some translucent, disco material to really make the grade. All the cool kids have it. The link to Roger's home-built, UL external-frame backpack with UL materials crosses all boundaries and must therefore somehow be immoral and likely illegal in Australia. :)
"Generally Speaking", implies the existence of exceptions and acknowledges that we might all be "more comfortable" with the product(s) we've invested in.
The largest-capacity packs one can buy are internal-framed rigs with far more capacity than any commercially-available, external-framed packbag. I think back to a couple we met on the PCT a few years ago, he with a giant, blue cordura internal-frame that must have been 40" tall and which he reported to be 80lb for their 7-day trek. when he set it down, I think I felt it thump the earth… His comment at my Kelty was that he used to have one, but it couldn't carry enough stuff! All I could think was how that entire load rode right on his back. Nuts, man. Probably very comfortable!
Noting the absence of UL-Externals on the commercial market, it's also notable that the typical internal-framed backpack, say at REI, weighs far more than an external-framed pack of similar volume capacity. They're heavier, less comfortable, more expensive and cantilever the load out off the back with a narrow profile. This is another reason why the reliable, light, comfortable, ventilated external-frame packs are still preferred by many youth and adults that care (and that carry higher-than UL load weights). Go with the stuff that weighs less and works better. How cool would it be to have external-framed, commercial packs with UL-quality packbags? VERY.
Feb 26, 2013 at 10:35 am #1958895How about this as a comparison?
External frame packs are like pickups and Honda Fits.
Internal frame packs are like BMWs and Porsches.
Feb 26, 2013 at 12:12 pm #1958934external frame packs work just fine. We did the JMT using them in 1971. Of course there were no internal frame packs them. Part of our route was over a cross country pass, and over snow.
We also used external frame packs in all other situations: going cross country, going through brush, with heavy loads, ski mountaineering, with irregular or strap on loads. They are definitely better for heavy loads, like 60 lbs plus, and they work fine in the other situations.
That being said, I still have my Kelty Tioga, but use an REI Flash 65. My current gear fits in it perfectly, and its compact.
Feb 26, 2013 at 2:26 pm #1958981Bob,
The 2nd guy from the bottom looks like his pack is working against him :)
In general, I agree with you. But a properly fitted internal works better in the kind of terrain in your picture and in cross country travel where tree branches and shrubs are likely to be obstacles.
On advantage of a quality internal is the ability to bend the stays to match the shape of your back. A quality internal can carry big loads just like an external. A McHale hip belt is more comfortable than anything on the market — past or present, and his larger packs can carry anything an external can with more comfort.
When both styles were plentiful, externals cost a lot less. Externals aren't the best choice for bushwacking or Class 3 and above travel. My Kelty D4 only weighs 3lbs 9oz, and my Kelty Serac tips the scale at just under 5lbs. An internal that can comfortably carry the same weight as these externals weigh more and have all sorts of adjusting mechanisms. I find it is much easier to "live out of" an external frame pack. I still use my externals occasionally, but my McHale packs are my "go to" packs. A properly fitted internal frame pack is going to be more comfortable than an external, assuming you have a quality internal pack.
As to why did externals become nearly extinct?
Colin Fletcher caused the change. In the Complete Walker III, published in the early 80's, Fletcher had switched from an external Trailwise to a Gregory Cassin (which was heavier) and extolled the virtues of internal frames. The "backpacking faithful" dumped their external packs and rushed out to get an internal. Gregory owes his success to Fletcher, and Trailwise no longer exists. Also the gear retailers saw a great opportunity. Most internals cost at least twice as much as an external, so there was more money to be made on an internal pack — and thus the salesperson would recommend an internal. Some of us old farts just kept using our externals.
Max,You might find these interesting
Feb 26, 2013 at 4:33 pm #1959030Most of the scouts in my area use externals, but its because they are half the price, very sturdy, and more adjustable – which is important for parents who want a pack that will fit a 12 year old, and still fit a 16 year old later after they grow.
The scouts who can afford to, switch to internal frame packs after they get close to an adult height (and their parents are pretty sure they won't have to buy another pack next year). Part of the motivation may be to look cooler, but they do remark on how much easier they are to hike with on our trails (which are rocky, sawtooth hills with overhanging tree branches everywhere. Ie: big green tunnel :-) ).
In general, I would buy externals for a youth group like a college because you can adjust the width between the shoulder straps, torso length, swap out straps or hip belts when they get worn out or to fit different sized people, and they are more durable in a rental environment.
However, internals took over the market for a reason. Even though the externals were half the price, and are much easier to pack / live out of due to the big wide opening. ”Coolness” wears off quickly when something else works better, so I don't think internals were just more fashionable.
I personally think externals are great for hunters or people taking supplies to a remote cabin. Ie: who have to carry lots of weight. But for regular backpacking, I like internals a lot better. If I lived where trails were gently sloped, and didn't have lots of trees, then I might prefer the ventilation of an external.
That said, I did a lot backpacking over steep rocky trails with lots of trees with an external. So, if cost is a issue, get an external, drop the pack bag to its lowest setting if there are lots of trees or steep rocky trails – and enjoy your hike ;-)
Feb 26, 2013 at 5:54 pm #1959062I will agree that old school externals are not the best for scrambling terrain, however for pure load hauling and efficiency of performance to weight, they win hands down. The reason a heavy duty Mchale carries well is because it has many of the external design features added to an more internal style design, but it is heavy by comparison.
I haven't carried a 100 lbs on my back as often as some I know, but i have carried weights above 75 a lot of times, and 100 a few times, on steep terrain without trails, and every time the external wins. I recently did a 90 lb test load on an external that was under 2 lbs. The base design flat works. The internal design when it comes to heavy loads , is mostly one band aid placed on another IMO.
I tend to think the actual range where an internal has much of an advantage is very small. If I'm going super light, I go frameless and use a sleeping pad, if I'm going somewhat heavy , I go external. The internal really wins in the 15 -30 lb range.
There are some sports where an internal has an advantage (XC skiing and climbing) but the advantage is mostly about the profile of the external, and not the design itself. I will admit, I wouldn't want to take a long fall with a an external on, but the reality is I don't want to take a long fall with any pack and if I took a long fall, the pack I'm wearing is probably the least of my problems at that moment.
Feb 27, 2013 at 3:59 am #1959158My hiking buddy still uses his external even on some bushwhacks; at 65, he's a year older than I am and both of us have shed a lot of excess carry weight in the last few years from "the old days." For some time I have been looking at my old Tioga and planning on biting the bullet and pulling it out to join him, and this fall we will have the 3-day trip to do it on: no base camp and fairly flat. However, one big reason why I plan on using it is the accessibility of my gear: I love the many pockets and storage places. I am looking forward to not needing to undo everything to get to what I foolishly put near the bottom of the GoLite I would otherwise be using. I may even try it out before the fall even though our current plans for earlier hikes include significant bushwhacking.
Feb 27, 2013 at 5:43 am #1959162Jim, if you pull out that old dinosaur Tioga, check out the shoulder straps. Mine hardened after 30 years and, when I called Kelty to see about ordering some just like those on my son's newer pack, they comped them out to me after I sent a photo. Now the new straps… ahhhh, better than the older ones ever were. They're contoured and slightly breathable.
I stuck with the waist band, mostly out of lazy but also because the Cam-Lok is so simple (and programmed into my head) compared to the newer clickers. It's heavier, of course, but so it goes.
I've left my extension bar in the pack, mostly because I use it for a handle when I spin the pack on or off, but you can obviously shave weight by eliminating it. Depending on the era and size of the Tioga, it might be just under 4lb of pack weight and 50 gallons of "cool". :)
Feb 27, 2013 at 8:48 am #1959220Erik,
You're absolutely shoving me into using it. Great ideas! Looking forward to playing with it on the trail — and in the bush. Thanks.
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