Jan 29, 2013 at 9:27 pm #1298609
At long last "My Precious" is finished! pre-bent winter pole next to original." width=eight="640">"550" height="413">="550" height="413">
And that's it.
>I may add four more Velcro cable wraps at the top reinforcement circles. All wraps are sewn to the Hypalon exterior reinforcements for the X-ing pole straps.
>All seams and hand stitching are sealed inside and out.
>The corner grommets put the outward stress on the triangulated CF corner poles. Thanks for that inspired corner support design Henry.
>the X-ing poles are pulled up a bit at the center top by 10 mm. webbing and a QR buckle. This gives adequate clearance for the inner tent attatchment and also partially spreads X-ing poles tension to the main pole.
The next set of photos will show it in the mountains in a true winter setting, complete with all side and end extra guylines set for extreme weather.
This may not be everyone's cup of tea but it answers my needs for better (IMHO) canopy support.
The extra weight of the heavier main pole was almost exactly offset by the weight lost in shortening the X-ing poles. I actually lightened total pole weight by a whopping 0.02 ounces. :o)Jan 30, 2013 at 8:08 pm #1949121
@joshuaLocale: Santa Cruz,Ca
Looks good. Did you ever have the tent in heavy snow before the mod? ( I am assuming you did this for the snow) Did you feel that the material might rip or did you actually experience it before the mod? What was the main reason for doing this? I have a scarp 1 but haven't taken it out in the snow yet. Do you think that the scarp 1 would be subject to the same stresses that the larger tent has? Thanks. JoshJan 30, 2013 at 8:13 pm #1949125
@woodenwizardLocale: Greater Mt Tabor
Eric that looks amazing!
I have one too and have to admit thats pretty sweet.Jan 30, 2013 at 11:43 pm #1949172
Never had it in the snow, never even slept in it yet. Just got it in Dec. Can't wait for a good storm forecast. Then I'll head for an exposed ridge at 10,000 ft. in 'Vegas nearby Spring Mountains.
I always felt the Scarp design was a very good one that only needed some minor tweaking for full-on winter duty. That's why I bought it instead of a Hilleberg.
Thanks, glad you like it. The mods were not really "extensive" and W/O crossing poles the only giveaways of the modding are the Velcro cable wraps and corner grommets. The interior X-ing poles still allow the Scarp 2 to be freestanding.
** I can leave the inner tent attatched to the fly everywhere but the roof for packing purposes. That way I have enough working room to attatch the X-ing poles first.
I'll use the lighter main pole in 3 season camping.
It's likely I will sew on tent stake loops around the fly bottom hem for even more "gription". I'll use the original light 10 mm. webbing from the X-ing pole tiedowns, as I did on my TT Moment. Belt-and-suspenders mentality, fer sure.
Gotta say that I feel the winterized Scarp 2 will hold up very well in high winds WITH 4 tie-outs (sides & ends). If not then back to the drawing board (or CAD program).Jan 31, 2013 at 12:35 am #1949182
The "Kocheda" version I did was just something that I had in my mind when Henry was designing the Scarp.
(mostly because I had used and seam sealed several Bibler tents…)
as it happens the first night I had the tent I woke up sometime after midnight thinking about that mod so I set the Scarp up in my backyard and did that mod.
I had to use the poles on hand (the std x poles), so for that to work I had to insert the pole tip on one corner and finish on the opposite corner on the same size.
Having done that and then played around a bit I lost interest mostly because it was a bit fiddly but also because I just used the Moment for my winter trips.
having the poles crossing in the center is obviously less fiddly and allows the use of the existing bases for the pole attachments so yes not too much work involved.
Well done .
here is the original Kocheda (New snow) :Jan 31, 2013 at 7:02 am #1949230
@cadyakLocale: southwest georgia
Nice work Eric and Franco.Jan 31, 2013 at 8:38 am #1949261
@stephen-mLocale: Way up North
Well done Eric :-)Jan 31, 2013 at 10:35 am #1949299
Franco, your solution is interesting in that it requires no sewing but still gives internal support.
For on-snow use you'd need pole pockets sewn at the hem to recieve the X-ing pole ends and prevent them from sinking into the snow. What I like is that with your "Kocheda" setup you can use the crossing poles inside or outside. Cool.Jan 31, 2013 at 10:42 am #1949302
Just a thought: given the lowish hydrostatic head of silnylon, is there any concern that the pressure of the internal pole against the silnylon fly could cause some leaking at the points at which the pole presses against the fabric?
I suspect this could be remedied by simply applying some silnet where the fly and poles touch. On the other hand, it may not be an issue at all.Jan 31, 2013 at 10:44 am #1949304
@ngatelLocale: Southern California
It looks like your poles terminate just above the V-Struts. Franco's go to the ground. Question is, how well does the load transfer to the struts. Would you have gotten more, less, same structure by eliminating the struts and going to the ground. Would removing the struts affected other design features; positively or negatively?Jan 31, 2013 at 1:45 pm #1949394
My Kocheda mod would also need some sewing if put into actual use.
You need to keep the poles in place. Possibly wind and most likely snow would move them out of position so they do need some internal clips.
Yes, that reminded me of another reason I did not follow through with my mod.
Silnylon in contact with another surface can wet out and leak.(the fabric inner can handle that)
I cannot remember now if I tested that or not but that was part of the problem with the BD shelters that have poles against the fabric. That design worked well (for me…) with the ToddTex(PTFE) in the Bilblers not so much with Epic.
Those PitchLock corners are in my mind the best idea that Henry has ever come up with.
They offer a lot of support and leverage for the very minimal weight.
I don't know of any other corner support that is even close to that , so no I would definitely not touch/modify that.Jan 31, 2013 at 6:03 pm #1949470
USA Duane HallParticipant
@hikerduaneLocale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
Eric, if you bring that to Desolation, could see some wind at Gilmore. Looks very nice, great thinking.
DuaneJan 31, 2013 at 8:44 pm #1949521
I coated the entire top of the fly with a 5:1 ratio (by volume) of odorless mineral spirits to GE silicone caulk then wiped it down for application uniformity and to remove excess coating. I doubt it I'll have any problem with leaking at the pole contact areas. I think the hydrostatic head is now likely doubled.
If I do have any leakage I'll coat the inner side of the fly in those areas only. In fact I may do it anyway to reduce wear from chafing. But I rcall the pole sleeve for my Moment hasn't shown wear so I'm not too concerned.
Believe me, by the time any wear might happen I'll surely be on to a newer design with "Unobtanium" poles.
If you look closely at the outside view you can tell the X-ing poles push down a bit
on the triangulated CF corner struts. That's as it should be since the apex of a triangle is a very strong load bearing point. Henry's clever design aided my modification. As also mentioned, some of that load is relieved by the 10 mm. webbing W/ QR buckle I used at the top where the poles crossed. This raised the X-ing poles a bit to give room for the inner tent ceiling. PM me if you want the webbing attatchment details. It was dead simple.Feb 2, 2013 at 1:01 am #1949939
That is truly awesome. Don't know if you posted the photos before, but thank you for doing so now. It is some serendipitous what you and Franco have been able to do with a tent that began its life with a much different shape.
Since the tent is fully pitchable without the long poles, it looks like you can get into it easily afterward to add the long poles – not like the BD HiLite type tents that you have to crawl under on the ground.
Any interest in long carbon poles of equal strength and around half the weight? PM me if you like.
Can't wait for the next set of photos.Feb 2, 2013 at 2:04 am #1949949
Looking again at my version I remembered another reason why I did not follow that up.
That is because the two poles double crossed like that cause an almost flat area around the vents.
But again it was something I did under the full moon at around two AM just so I could see if it could be done.
Then I kind of lost interest…Dec 1, 2013 at 8:55 pm #2049846
These are awesome mods. Thanks again for the idea and photos, Eric!
I'm most of the way through doing these to my Scarp 2. I've done the grommet tabs and the velcro. Somehow, I was able to machine sew all of these without sewing the fly together accidentally! I still need to add the center pole lifting strap and cut the poles. I also coated the top and floor and added slightly longer and extra guylines when I first received the tent, so that's done. I suppose I ought to get the heavier main pole too.
I've got the procedure down, just need to find the time now.Dec 2, 2013 at 12:08 am #2049865
@ryanLocale: Northern Rockies
These mods make the Scarp better. Good work, men.
But if Henry had just used two end hoops instead of the little patent pending call-em-techno-struts-but-they're-still-just-sticks-things he could've offered a real winter tent at less weight, easier setup, and prettier aesthetics than the two honkin' crossing poles. It woulda been a serious 3-hoop tunnel with good fabric tension, which is what we need for snow and real wind loads.
Ah well.Dec 2, 2013 at 1:42 am #2049873
"But if Henry had just used two end hoops instead of the little patent pending call-em-techno-struts-but-they're-still-just-sticks-things"
They do indeed look just like two sticks, however :
BTW, note that the single 8" Easton peg is holding my 150lbs.
Just in case…
There is no trick there but don't try it or you may impale yourself.
Just a mild push with one hand will squash most tents, no need to lean on them.Dec 2, 2013 at 11:08 pm #2050223
Some sloppy math says that Ryan's end hoops, at 6 feet (each), would be as long as the the 6 feet total of TT's carbon tube, around two times the weight using the best Easton prebent alloy tube, and would not provide nearly as much head and foot space at the end walls as the Scarp. On the plus side, agree with the point about the 3-hoops on aesthetics, maybe more wind stability, and a need for only one stake at each end for conical end covers. When GoLite got into a similar three hoop design a few years ago, though, the weight went off the charts, a bad precedent.
The problem seems to be the diminished end space using low hoops, and how small a radius carbon, as distinguished from prebent alloy, can be bent to without breaking when the wind adds additional stress. This is a problem Roger Caffin faced with his tents, and may be why he elected to use the elbows for his carbon stick-things, to create more head and shoulder space without over stressing the carbon. Has anyone tried to intersperse prebent alloy sections with straight carbon ones in order to get an almost hoop shape at lighter weight than all alloy?
One question may be how Ryan would like mini versions of Roger's penta hoops at the head and foot ends. Somehow can't see Ryan or TT going for that. Maybe the aesthetic thing at work again. If they ever figure it out and start making filament wound curved carbon tubes of high quality, game over. Form and function would meet.
EDIT: Oops, forgot about the additional stick-thingy (carbon tube strut) that goes in the center of each end of the Scarp. Adding that brings the strut weight up closer to the weight of an alloy hoop. Using prebent Easton nanolite 344 tube instead of 340 would lower the hoop weight, further reducing the weight difference. The small hoops could be lightened still further by using carbon sections at the center and ends of each, and using two prebent alloy sections between them, so the hoop would be skewed a bit outward at about 12" height, and provide more space for head and feet to move sideways. We can make our own prebent alloy sections, using packed fine sand, but they will not be as durable as a section prebent by Easton before tempering. Whatever the issues might be with this approach, the final product would be better than the use of straight struts used in many configurations on the many versions of the center hoop, side entry tents that abound. So agree with Ryan's disfavor of the sticky-things.
Reflecting on what configuration of sticks might work best on the ends of an Akto is kind of fun, but smaller end hoops with conical end covers that both tension the tent and provide well-protected venting, always seemed like a better approach.Dec 3, 2013 at 8:27 pm #2050581
And if Ryan actually knew anything about tent design we would all perk up and genuflect at his billowing ego. But then again, he doesn't and no one cares.
Ah well..Dec 3, 2013 at 9:31 pm #2050600
@ryanLocale: Northern Rockies
I certainly don't have the tent design experience that you have, Henry. Thank you for your humble reminder ;)
I really like the Scarp. I just really want it to be a 4-season tent that can handle snow loading without the unsupported fabric between the sticks sagging.
Also — I'm sorry for the patent-stick jab. It was meant in good fun and not a sincere criticism. It's clear the sticks add a lot to your designs.
Also re: end hoops, noted about the tight radius…
All this is motivated by my current immersion in a winter tent testing project and general frustration by people calling tents 4-season tents but with unsupportive fabric panels that sag a lot under even low (a few inches) snow loads.
Tent designer I'm not, so I'll stand down on my grand ideas for redesigning TarpTents!
Winter tent user I am, so I'll try to keep to keep the ego billowed small enough so that it remains contained in the vestibule!Dec 4, 2013 at 8:13 pm #2050944
As a publicist, or whatever Ryan calls his work, he has to try to please all of the people all of the time. A hopeless task, of course. I used to have to do that also, but not anymore. Ain't it great!Dec 4, 2013 at 9:39 pm #2050978
Yes and as tent designer Henry needs to obey the laws of physics.
The "sticks" that form the Pitch Lock corner (plus the two mid ones) of the Scarp are 10x 18" Carbon Fiber tubes weighing a total of 3.5 oz.
Now see if you can make two arch poles that can hold up a foot or two of snow for less than that ,even using pre-bent tubes.
Do keep in mind also the Scarp footprint.Dec 5, 2013 at 3:56 pm #2051236
If you mean applying force directly to the end of the carbon strut, and thus along its length as in your photo, OK. Indeed, an acrobat could probably stand balanced on the tops of the struts. But the snow will also land on the fabric spanning between the top tips of the struts.
I understood Ryan's point to be that the small hoop would spread the weight of the snow over the entire hoop, thus keeping the fabric from sinking all along the length of the hoop. Sure, you could not stand on the hoop without breaking it. But the weight of the snow will be spread over a greater length than the width of your foot.
I have break-tested a bunch of carbon struts, and the ones I chose, in conjunction with a prebent Nanolite in the center, would easily hold up under a foot of snow.
The problem would be with the fabric span from the end hoops up to the larger center hoop. The tension on the tent would have to be enormous to hold up the snow where the fabric is unsupported. That's why I don't like hoop tents in the first place.
But they do save pole weight, and perform well in heavy winds and rain.
In addition to the loss of some space, another issue with a hooped end, as opposed to a box-shaped end like the Scarp's, is being able to open the door without loosening the canopy and making the tent vulnerable to nasty weather. The top points of the pitch-locks act as the point of a partial cone, keeping the canopy taut no matter how far the door is opened. It is very difficult to come up with a design to do this between two hoops, rather than a boxed end. That may be another advantage of the Scarp.
Googling the Golite Eden brings up some photos down the page of Ryan's suggested tent:
It is difficult to tell from the Eden photos how taut the canopy remains as the door is opened, but I think it can be a problem. Looseness in the canopy can create a lot more havoc than imagined when rain is pouring onto it and the wind is flapping it about. I never saw one of the Eden tents in person, so don't know if Golite addressed the problem. That's the issue I was thinking about avoiding when referring to daydreaming about different ways to use struts to support the ends of an Akto, a tent with an end more boxed like the Scarp's.Dec 5, 2013 at 4:59 pm #2051266
@kbugLocale: NW New Mexico
Isn't the TT Cloudburst 3 closer to the tent RJ is imagining? Its got additional guy lines to solve the door-open tension problem mentioned above, and already a tunnel tent.
If the CB3 was smaller in all dimensions, had a true sleeve for the 3rd pole, and a true double-wall interior I bet it would be a popular UL winter tent. Probably at half the ballpark cost of the Caffin tunnels when they're finally available.
@Franco (and HS) why hasn't TT jumped into the 4-season market beyond the Moment DW and Scarp 2 (ie. A true winter tunnel tent)? Seems like you could sell a ton at a higher price point than most of your gear (say $400 ish) and still be a fair bit lighter than the $500-600 tents in that category.
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