NEW Patagonia Encapsil (“Dry Down”) Parka

[Richard Nisley]

Michael,

Down analysis of both simulated and real conditions tells me the following:

-Moisture-regain is a function of the intrinsic material reaction to water as a gas. Untreated down at 100% RH has a maximum moisture regain of ~15%. Tests conducted on DriDown show a 33% improvement in moisture regain to ~10%. In contrast, PET (synthetics) average 2%. All of the conventional down fluorocarbon treatments should yield similar results to DriDown. The Encapsil product treatment should THEORECTICALLY yield moisture regain similar to PET. This is because the coating is more uniform in a plasma chamber.

-Conventional DWR uses fluorocarbon spikes that can lie down in as little as a year just from the pollution in the air. Smoke, water, dirt, etc. accelerate the process. Reactivation is similar to the surface treatments on WPB jackets. The silicone in Encapsil is inert and shouldn’t degrade for the life of the product.

-Total garment/quilt/bag liquid water absorption is directly proportional to the thickness (interstice volume) regardless of the insulation type. This same phenomenon applies to PET as well as all down.

-The demos of down floating in a beaker of water indicate that waterproof down will make you invincible to water but the tests indicate a modest improvement, with the potential exception of Encapsil.

Most of the above is just summary statements from more detailed posts I have made previously. When the price of Encapsil comes down, it will be a significant advancement. The other treatments are currently affordable but offer more modest improvements.

[Brett Peugh]

I am with you and think quite a bit of this is BS from BPL, one of the reasons why I did not renew my membership.

[Michael Gillenwater]

Richard,

Thank you. Super helpful information. And for those not familiar (I had to look it up), "moisture regain" is defined as: "The weight of moisture on a textile given as a percentage of the oven-dry weight." Given how little down weighs, that is not much moisture retention.

A big take away here seems to be that the Encapsil process (or at least a Silicon-based plasma process) is superior to the alternative coating processes, which is good to know. But it also sounds like then Patagonia might have a monopoly here and plan on extracting monopoly rents for awhile. I did a quick patent search, but lacked the right key words to find anything useful.

Alternative might be for Patagonia to license the technology to other manufacturers, which will still make it more expensive, but probably less than if Patagonia tries to keep it exclusive. Given that Patagonia does not currently make sleeping bags (unless I am forgetting something…although maybe that is their plan now), it will probably have to wait for patents to run out before the price really comes down. Depending on what the key patents are, this could take some time.

[Colin Krusor]

I turn 34 this year. I wonder if down siliconized with this technology will become available in small quantities to the MYOG crowd before I turn 50. Any wagers?

I'm not in the habit of complaining that technological advances don't come fast enough, I believe in intellectual property rights, and I don't feel entitled to the products of other people's innovations. But it is agonizing to watch new materials technologies very gradually trickle down, over decades, from corporate supply chains to small businesses and hobbyists.

[Nick Gatel]

Supply and demand. If it works, the owners are entitled to make as much profit as possible. But it will be up to the market place to decide the price. If Patagonia can sell a ton of parkas at $700, they will. They might sell more goods at a lower price and maximize profits — total dollars. But they are not going to sell anything cheap :)

However…

If smart people see an opportunity and can develop a another technology with the same results, the market (competition) will push prices down.

[Michael Gillenwater]

Spoken like true free marketeer. But the reality is that patents are a government creation. In a truly free market, intellectual property would only take the form of what you can keep secret from your competitors. Why should patents be 14 years versus 5 or 50? Or even exist at all? Or should they last forever? Of course, patents work so well in the IT and smartphone industry right now, we would never want to question them. I would no argue against patent protection in general. I am only pointing out that the issue is more complex than what sounds like a libertarian talking point.

[Nick Gatel]

In a free market property rights are the foundation.

The value of a new product is not in the product itself, but in the mind of the person who created it — the intellectual property.

Unlike real property, which can be physically transferred, IP is not physically transferable. The owner of IP should have ownership of patents and copyrights until death.

Physical property they can transfer, IP is not real property than can be physically transferred. Government protects all propert rights. Govt should not have the authorization to take away the IP property rights of the creater during their lifetime and distribute it to the public domain.

[Jerry Adams]

The government doesn't take away Intelectual Property and distribute to the public

The government enables and enforces lawsuits by one company against another company that's making some product

If you had a free market, the 2nd company would also make the product and the price would come down

[Michael Gillenwater]

We are off topic now, but since this is fun…

So Nick are you arguing for patents to last forever? I don't think the life of the person is a feasible option, as corporations have patents too and they can "live" forever. You might want to rethink that position, for its implications are wildly radical, not just for the progression of technology and innovation for for the entire economic development of society. What if Edison had a perpetual patent on the use of electricity for lighting? I am going to drop it here, but there are plenty of free market arguments for and against patents, see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patents#Criticism

[Charles P]

Great review! And a great scoop, seems to me you're well within your right to post it here. Sadly, it seems the gear makers have the power to stifle conversations here. Too bad.

This is the youtube review:

[Michael Cheifetz]

Jerry

If there was no IPR and no enforcement then indeed RnD spend would drop, companies would only do theings they can protect through secrecy (many things cannot be protected this way) and the world would create less knowledge. The whole point of IPR is that you need to fully disclose the information to gain a patent – thus enabling other people to gain from it.

i agree that the length of time for a patent might not be relevant anymore – it makes a lot of sense in Pharma or automotive where Rnd costs are through the roof and time to market is also very long…but in internet/SW…..

Btw – @richard…can you point me to some of your posts talking about the WPdown tech and testing

Mike

[Jerry Adams]

Michael

What the other Michael said is pretty good – limited time patent protection

Pharma patents are ridiculous – most of the basic research is government, the pharmaceutical companies do minor tweaks

Then they do phony studies that show a medicine is marginally better (even if they have to discard all the studies that show their medicine is not effective)

Then they do heavy marketing on TV or whatever and make huge profits

I'de say the "free market" has run amok

[Trill Daddy]

Friends,

I've been talking with Patagonia, and have decided to take down the video until the jacket's launch.

They've asked me to keep the jacket underwaps to the public until then. That means, not wearing it in public.

As Richard said- this jacket just might be the warmest jacket for its weight. By being so innovative, I feel somewhat bad for so zealously blowing the lid off of this exciting new product.

This also scratches my plans to have brought this jacket with me at OR in a few weeks (plus, it's WAAAY too warm)

I noticed a few more things:

1) regardless of its country of origin, this is truly the most well made piece of outerwear that I have ever seen. Not single loose thread, all stitching is perfect. WM, Arcteryx (Canada) status…. I think each jacket might be handmade.

2) it is very compressible and very lightweight, which makes me think that Patagonia is indeed listening to the BPL community.

Maybe you can catch a glimpse of it around the hills in my (disappointingly popular) town.

[Jeffs Eleven]

So you paid $700 for a jacket FROM THE MANUFACTURER (!) and now they won't let you wear it in public??

EH?

Obviously, I have the story wrong.

Please tell me I have this wrong.

[Stephen M]

Hi Babak,

Maybe I missed a part of the thread but how did you manage to purchase the Parka if its not due for release until March.

Cheers,

Stephen

[Ryan Smith]

Babak,

I wouldnt feel bad for posting details of this jacket in the least. You don't owe Patagonia anything as far as I know. They didn't want it "released" yet? Who cares. Welcome to the real world Patagonia. Then they ask you to not past anymore details nor wear the $700 jacket you purchased? I think I'm missing something here.

At the very least, this situation puts Patagonia and BPL in a bad light.

Ryan

[Trill Daddy]

Although the folks at Patagonia haven't really explained, it appears that there was a miscommunication between folks who deal with customers and folks who deal with marketing…….

I have the receipt, complete with the little photo of the product (as is customary in all Patagonia online orders)….. I'll be writing a (very) extensive and thorough review of this jacket come launch, courtesy of the friends at Patagonia.

Pretty big product leak, IMO.

Good thing thing for them that I don't work for MHW, TNF, or any of those other companies that rejected my applications a few years back….

[Jeffs Eleven]

Well man, you definitely are in a rare spot. FWIW I think you are being extremely classy. I don't think I'd be so caring with a huge corp making a 'whoopsie' like selling a prototype. (LOFNL)

Who knows, maybe they'll give you a job. That would be paying it forward for them. … Or giving you your money back and you becoming a tester. (at least for this jacket)

[James holden]

Theyll get to ya

Its not like they sent it to u for free to review

You paid full price …

Its not like were living in a police state ;)

[Brett Peugh]

I say either do the reviews you want and wear it around or ask for your money back.

[Trill Daddy]

I hope they do both :). Either way, more power to Patagonia for pushing the envelope.

Also, is Patagonia even a corporation? Last I heard, it was a privately owned company.

There is a video on Encapsil currently on the Internet, watch it – it does not seem like a very "inexpensive" treatment, given the scale.

This jacket, it appears, is a BPL "wet dream"- hollere at Richard for the lclo and weight- really impressive. Kind of blows the MHW Nilas out of the water, IMO, in terms of performance- then again, it's used a bit differently. Pockets on the Patagonia are insulated in a very "neat" way.

Dane Burns would love this jacket….

[Peter Fokkinga]

Speaking of reviews, I would really like to see a BPL state of the marked report about the various "dry down" offerings. From Nikwax Down Proof to Encapsil and everything in between. Published in three parts would be best IMO.

The first part is all about inventarization: what products are (soon) available? And for each product information from the manufacturer. For example: in what quality (cuin) available, whether (or when) available to cottage industries, which companies are (planning) to use it in their garments/sleeping bags etc. And if laboratory tests are available (like the PDF on the zpacks website) by all means include them!

Methinks this part could be written quite quickly if BPL has good relations with those manufacturers.

The second part should be all about how this stuff performs in the real world. Yes, it is impressive to see the difference between treated and untreated down when added to water, but I am not in the habit to go swimming in a down vest… Probably difficult to test objectively, but having a "don't bother / noticeable effect / impressive" verdict compared to regular down (per treatment) from the BPL staff after actually using it would be good enough for me (how's that for a vote of confidence ;-))

This report would take months, for starters you need to acquire jackets, quilts and whatnot using the stuff…

A third part would be about durability of the treatments, but that's a long way off (18 months at least).

How about it, would this be worthwhile and feasible?

[Eugene Smith]

This circus story just gets better and better.

Be careful, Patagonia might put a hit on you….

[Stephen M]

It would Definitely perk things up for folks Peter.

My wife worked on this technology a couple of year ago and she explained to me how it works.

[Jacob Smith]

Babak has gotten a sneak peak, and some sob probably is now unemployed.

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