Lacing to help heel slippage?

[Andrew DiMicelli]

I learned from my last shoe purchase that I need to get bigger shoes to deal with foot swelling and leaving enough room for my toes on downhills.

I've been trying 12 and 12.5 in Terroc 330, La Sportiva Wildcats, and Brooks Cascadia 7. I like the Wildcat and Cascadia more than the 330's but I'm having trouble keeping my heel locked without making my laces so tight that they cut circulation. Part of the problem might be my blue superfeet which lift heel a bit higher out of the shoe. I will be using these for backpacking (20-30lbs pack) with a thin wool sock.

Any suggestions how to stop the heel slippage, maybe a different lacing pattern?

[Jake D]

http://doitandhow.com/2012/08/15/running-shoe-lacing-tips/

my tip for looser toes but tighter ankle is more convenient with boots.. you do the normal lacing then up to the flex point and tight an overhand knot. then lace up the hooks as tight as you want.

less convenient but you might be able to do it with the Wildcats with the loop style "holes" especially if you don't need to take them off much during the day.

http://www.backpacker.com/media/originals/CorrectiveBootTying3445x298.jpg

[Andrew DiMicelli]

I'm trying the first one right now. It helps a bit but there's still a very tiny bit of slip which will probably cause blisters. I was planning on just wearing a thin merino liner for breathability and quick drying for my trip. I have some other liners, would it make any sense to wear 2 liners to help stop blisters from friction with the same idea of using a liner and thick wool sock?

[Stephen Barber]

You might try a pair of New Balance shoes made with a narrow heel last.

http://www.newbalance.com/shoe-last-chart/shoe-last-chart,default,pg.html

[Jake D]

I agree with Stephen, adding more socks is trying to adjust your foot to the shoe and it could work or will just result in more blisters from so many layers moving. Sounds like they do not match your feet.

[Hiking Malto]

On what Jake described (much better than I did by the way.).

[M B]

When I started wearing 330s, they felt strange, like my heel was going to come out.

But it doesnt. My foot just wasnt used to the very slightly lower cut around the ankle.

After a few miles my feet got used to the new feeling, and it became the new "normal"

If its slipping bad, thats a problem. If it feels like it could slip, thats different.

Personally, my shoes are pretty loose with no issues.

Innov8 (i think) used to have a thing on their website with different ways to lace, for different purposes, but doesnt seem to be there now.

[Roger Caffin]

Basically, it sounds like you have shoes which do not match your feet. There is a reason why the big shoe companies have so many different lasts.

The Blue Superfeet will be part of the problem imho. I question whether you even need them.

You could try New Balance: they have a very big range of models, sizes and lasts. They also have a page which explains the difference between the lasts. My own personal opinion is that they are infinitely better than Nike, and that they make some really good walking and mountain trail shoes.

(Disclosure: I have field-tested and reviewed quite a range of their shoes here on BPL – because they have wide 4E models which the smaller companies do not.)

Cheers

[Sam Farrington]

Andrew,
I've been battling the same thing with the lowest mids I can find.
If there is an arch built into the mid sole of the shoe (the surface underneath the insole or footbed that you remove before installing the Superfeet), then the stiffer orthotic rear portion of the Superfeet may rock a bit over the slight arch. If that is happening, I think that heel slip is inevitable. The only cure I've found is to buy boots with inside bottoms that are flat enough to not rock my orthotic footbeds.

Even without the rocker, the Superfeet may be causing the slipping. Some podiatrists offer orthotics, particularly for running shoes, that do not project so far forward in the shoe and interfere with its flex.

Despite all that, I agree with Roger that it can be just a question of whether the last agrees with your foot. I use a full orthotic footbed with Wildcats and have never had a problem with heel slip like I do with the mids. Go figure. I think the time spent finding the right fitting footwear is well worth avoiding the effects of overly tight lacing.

[Jason Elsworth]

http://www.inov-8.co.nz/lacing-systems.html

You can also soften the heel cup in Inov-8s with steam and then mold them to fit. well in theory.

[Andrew DiMicelli]

Thanks for the responses.

The reason I use Superfeet is because I over pronate and also thought it would help with ground protection in these shoes without rock plates

I'll try out some New Balance, although I leave in 10 days so I don't have much time to figure this out. I've seen the MT1110 recommended, I'll try those in wide.

Any other shoe recommendations? I have a wide foot and would like a good amount of toe room ( having problems with possible ingrown toenails, I think keeping pressure off them would be a good idea)

[Roger Caffin]

> because I over pronate
Crap. That's a Nike marketing myth. Whatever you do, do not try to alter how your knee and ankle biomechanics work. That way lies pain and suffering.

> other shoe recommendations? I have a wide foot and would like a good amount of toe room
I don't like recommending shoes, but you could try the New Balance MO889 shoes in a 4E width. They have a narrow heel cup which might suit; the rest is 'standard'.

The MT1110 are the inverse: wider heel and smaller everywhere else. Not sure that's what you need.

Cheers

[Andrew DiMicelli]

Thanks Roger, I'll try out the MO889.

I see what you're saying about changing biomechanics, but won't the different designs of the shoes do that anyway? If an orthotic is designed to help a problem I supposedly have (which I don't know, really), wouldn't it be better to use it?

[Mark Andrews]

I have had good luck dealing with the same scenario using the MO889s.

They can be picked up at Amazon or Famous Footwear (typical strip mall discount chain) for ~$65.

Good luck…

-Mark

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Andrew

> I see what you're saying about changing biomechanics, but won't the different designs
> of the shoes do that anyway?
Yes and no. If you are wearing some of Nike's stranger pronation control creations then the shoe will doubtless do strange things to you. But GOOD walking shoes are strictly neutral, and do not try to push your feet around.

The MO889 shoes have a flat footbed – no contouring at all, and the 'floor' of the shoe under the footbed is quite flat as well. This is how boots used to be made, and for very good reason too.

> If an orthotic is designed to help a problem I supposedly have (which I don't know,
> really), wouldn't it be better to use it?
Someone once wrote (here at BPL), that every podiatrist he had been too had labeled every orthotic prescribed by 'the others' as rubbish, and substituted his own.

A crutch may be good at keeping the weight off your foot while it heals, but no crutch will ever get your foot back to fitness. Me, I would get some seriously neutral footwear (or go barefoot), and work on getting my feet back to fitness. There were no such things as 'orthotics' 5,000 (or even 500) years ago.

Cheers

[jscott]

Yeah but Roger the average life expectancy 5000 years ago was about 30. OK I'm guessing but you get my point. Is it possible to take the whole paleo thing too far? Throw the baby dinosaur out with the cold bath water?

[Andrew DiMicelli]

I've put all of the regular insoles back in the shoes because of the superfeet and this has helped the heel slippage a bit (I think the superfeet are just too thick and raise my heel up too much). There is still some of slippage when I just wear my smartwool merino liner. However, I bought darn tough socks (http://www.darntough.com/hike-trek-1905.html) and somehow they seemed to have pretty much stopped most slippage in a bunch of the shoes I've been trying. Although, they are kind of thick and seem like they'll be hot and there's kind of a thick seam or something sitting almost on my pinky toe which might cause blisters so this isn't a great solution..

I understand what you're saying, Roger, however I have barely have time to even find a pair I like and try it. I leave in 8 days on a 5 month trip which includes several treks. I doubt my feet in trail runners without support and carrying a 30lbs pack will be able to handle this without any training, especially when they're used to being on superfeet for the past 5 months

Any recommendations on exercises/stretches I can do before I leave and during my trip to help my feet (though I doubt in this small amount of time I can accomplish anything)?

And about the MO899's, they only come in D and 4E. 4E is too wide for me, 2E would suit me best. D seems to be okay if shoes are sized up enough though I am still worried about the snugness of the Brook's cascadia and inov8's I have.

I went to a New Balance store today and they put me on this scanner. I have a high arch, right foot is an 11, left is a 10.5 although all the trail runners I'm trying at home right now are 12 and 12.5, and the New Balance I tried in the store ranged from 11-12 depending on the model.. The employee that was working with me said I was an SL-1 if that helps at all

Sorry for my babbling. I just don't know how you can help me nor do I know how to figure this out myself, especially in 7 days.. The shoe people in EMS, Rei, etc don't seem to know anything, I might go to this custom fit place that will measure foot volume and all that stuff, although it's over an hour away from me..

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Andrew

> I leave in 8 days on a 5 month trip which includes several treks.
Ah, well, bit of a problem there.
Let me wish you good luck anyhow.

> I have a high arch, right foot is an 11, left is a 10.5
This is NOT uncommon! Yeah, it does make life difficult.
Me, I would go for the bigger size and fine tune with thick wool socks. Darn Tough Vermont are definitely my favorites. Two socks on one foot and one sock on the other?

> The shoe people in EMS, Rei, etc don't seem to know anything,
Harsh, very harsh. I am sure they did a 1 hour training course on shoe fitting. Some of them may have remembered some of it too.

Cheers

[Sam Farrington]

Roger and Andrew,
I tried all the mass-market orthotics and got nowhere until i found a good podiatrist who made me orthotics. It was like a miracle, from pain to no pain.
So please don't write off podiatry altogether.

After some torturous experiences, I vowed never to start a long trek with new footwear, or even new insoles. Maybe this is not so true if you are using low trail shoes. Andrew, maybe you could spend a few of those seven days trying on footwear to find out what feels really good right out of the box. A store with a ramp to see if your foot slides too far forward is good. And try to spend a day, or at least a few hours hiking in your first choice on rough terrain to see if the really good feel survives rough use.

After narrowing it down to a couple pairs, you might be able to keep one available as a back-up, using bounce boxes or whatever.

Hope you have a good journey.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Sam

The words 'mass market' and 'orthotics' do not fit in the same sentence. :-)

I think LW joggers are much easier to fit, but get the width right. Ultimately, go with what feels right!

Cheers

[Andrew DiMicelli]

I bought the MT1110 in size 12, 2E. I think they're a bit long, when I come out of my step the extra part of the shoe that extends past my toe bends and hits the front of my toe. I don't think this is necessarily bad but I could see it causing problems. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like they make the MT1110 in 11.5, 2E…

2E running shoes seem to feet me much better than any of these trail runners. I tried the brooks adrenaline ( a road/trail hybrid) yesterday and liked those.
http://www.brooksrunning.com/Brooks-Adrenaline-ASR-9-Mens-Trail-Running-Shoe/110123,default,pd.html
I did talk to one BPL member who has used them but I'm still afraid that the tread is not rugged enough and that they are too flexible and not offer enough protection.

I think I definitely need a 2E, everything else is just a bit narrow. But there are very few trail runners made in 2E, or at least I can't find more than a couple. I'm going to try the MT610 and MT710. Does anyone have any recommendations for trail runners that come in 2E or maybe there are more options in the low cut hiking shoes?

[Sam Farrington]

Has anyone tried "heel liners?"
They are foam filled strips several inches long that go into the shoe horizontally, just above the heel. They are said to prevent both up-and-down and side-to-side heel slippage. Dr. Scholl's seems popular on the web, for sticking power and a leather outer. Found out about them reading a backpackinggeartest review of the newest Chaco mid.

Roger, I'd consider Superfeet to be mass market orthotic footbeds, or were you just kidding me? Before going to the foot doctor, I even bought the ones that you put in the oven for a bit and then step on. Please hurry and send me that info about the bridge you have for sale.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Sam

No, I don't think I was kidding you. What I meant is a bit complex, but let me try to explain.

One does not need special shoes or footbeds or medical assistance for any foot shape within the ordinary human range – which can be very broad. Our ancestors managed very well thank you for hundreds of thousands of years without even any shoes. Arch supports, pronation control, orthotics – they are creations of the spin doctors in the last ten or twenty years.

The word 'orthotic' does imply some sort of significant medical intervention. The dictionary definition is thus:
'(Medicine) the provision and use of artificial or mechanical aids, such as braces, to prevent or assist movement of weak or injured joints or muscles.
[From New Latin orthsis, ortht-, artificial support, brace, from Greek, a straightening, from orthoun, to straighten, from orthos, straight.]'

So when the word is used properly it means that some rather serious injury to the foot is being remediated – like maybe it got crushed under a ton of bricks or similar. But every one of those injuries is going to be unique to the person involved.

Trying to change however your feet behave to conform to some sort of idealistic perfect average both misunderstands the nature of normal human variation and risks serious injury to your feet. In fact, the idea of a 'perfect average' is really just a triumph of marketing spin and snake oil. It's gibberish. Sadly, Nike are responsible for three of the worst spins in this direction. Popular 'orthotics' are a fourth.

Follow all that through and you can see why I said that 'mass-market' and 'orthotics' do not belong in the same sentence – except as opposites. Yes, I know some companies claim to sell 'mass-market orthotics', but they also sell glass pyramids, magnetic healing bracelets based on quantum mechanics, and the Brooklyn Bridge.

Cheers

[Sam Farrington]

Thanks, Roger, for elaborating a bit. As always, very informative.
My sense is that you may not see much value in the "orthotics" (doctor's word, not mine) that are prescribed by podiatrists, or foot doctors (licensed ones).

I can only tell you that both personally, and from others who travel on foot in the backcountry, including a surveyor, our experience with prescription orthotics from good podiatrists is the ONLY thing that has enabled us to keep out there.

I'll grant you that there are just as many worthless podiatrists as there are in any other profession; but the better ones have been very helpful. This is experience that we cannot ignore. True, one has to hunt around a bit to find a good one. The one who has helped me was the only one who is also a successful foot surgeon, asked me to bring in all the boots I use, and regularly asks me to walk around in them so he can observe.

As regards, our forebears, someone pointed out here recently that they did not live anywhere near long enough to have many of the issues we develop in later years. I'll bet that like me, you would also accept these folks if they could prolong your ability to go backpacking about.

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