Camping in the Snow

[Stephanie Jordan]

Companion forum thread to:

Camping in the Snow

[Michael Gillenwater]

Just found these guys online for Al sheet. Not sure if it will work for what Roger describes, but worth a few dollars to try. And after filling out the shipping info, it turns out they are only a short bike ride from my house.

https://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=12657&step=4&id=916&top_cat=60

[Jim Colten]

Roger,

Regarding your aluminum scraper … yes shovels are heavier but after using a scraper tool without a handle (SnowClaw) I'm sticking with a shovel.

But I'm wondering about the consistency of the snow in your location. Relatively dense perhaps?

In my locale, mid winter snow might average 10% water content. That's not fluffy by northern rocky mountain standards but very fluffy by Sierra Nevada standards (from what I hear).

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Michael

OnLineMetals – yes indeed. One of the more available sources, but HORRIBLY expensive. Never mind: a single 12×12" bit for $7.62 will make two very fine scrapers.

Remember to bend around a curve rather than trying to make a sharp bend.

Cheers
(And a photo would be nice)

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Jim

> the consistency of the snow in your location. Relatively dense perhaps?
What do you expect when the daily temperature oscillates between 5 C and -5 C?

Yes, a small scraper like the photo showed might be a bit too small for dry powder snow. I still wouldn't go to a shovel myself; I would just make a bigger scraper. I tried something like a Snow Claw once and didn't like it. That may be a function of the snow consistency of course.

But what I did not mention in the article is something else you can do with my simple scraper. You can easily cut snow blocks. By holding the scraper sideways and plunging it into the snow (fold is now vertical), I can chop out blocks from quite hard icy snow very fast. Doing this with a shovel or a Snow Claw is much harder.

And when I have finished making camp, I can use the scraper as a stove base too.

Ah well, to each his own snow patch!

Cheers

[Michael Gillenwater]

Thanks for the reminder Roger. Bend around a curve.

And I the idea of triple use. cutting blocks of snow as well as a stove platform. Sounds like the shovel is off my gear list for sure.

[Paul McLaughlin]

Slightly OT, but just out of curiosity: Roger, how thick is the typical snowpack that you are traveling over in Oz?

[Jerry Adams]

Great article Roger, good replies

I don't do a lot of snow camping but I sometimes take this folding saw, Corona, from the big box store, blade maybe 8 inches long, maybe 12 ounces weight.

Mostly I use it for cutting branches that have grown across the trail

This also works as a snow saw. I can cut blocks that are 8 inches x 8 inches x whatever. Just lift them with my hands.

Mostly I just remove snow from the ground to make a bare spot to pitch tent, which shows my normal extreme of snow camping. You could make an igloo or whatever I suppose.

Maybe a saw is a better tool than a shovel for snow.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Paul

> how thick is the typical snowpack that you are traveling over in Oz?
Variable, very variable. It depends on the season, the time of year, and the position. But in general we would regard 1 metre thickness out on the windswept plains as being quite good.
That said, there have been years when anything that covers the grass is considered good!

On the other hand, the option of clearing the snow away to the grass is never a good one. The snow is far too heavy and consolidated.

Cheers

[Paul McLaughlin]

Roger – interesting. For comparison, in the Sierra we usually see about 4-6 feet in most areas where the touring is good, though 8-10 feet is not uncommon, and on one trip I took during a big snow year, we happened to pass very close to a snow survey location, where the snowpack was measured at just over 14 feet a day or so after we passed by. I can see that some strategies would be different depending on depth of snowpack. For instance, it is very rare that we can dig down to find a stream unless it pretty late in the spring, when it may be exposed despite still having 4-6 feet of snow adjacent. So one of our tricks is knowing how to get water from an exposed stream that has 6 foot high , vertical (or overhanging) banks without going for an icy swim.

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Paul

> 8-10 feet is not uncommon
snark, snark, snark … sigh.
Terrible thing, jealosy! :-)

> knowing how to get water from an exposed stream that has 6 foot high , vertical (or
> overhanging) banks without going for an icy swim.
Oh, we do get that as well where there is a lot of water. The Snowy River can have snow banks several metres high (drift snow), it is fast, and if you fall in you are not likely to survive. It has happened. So we seek elsewhere.

Cheers

[Eric Blumensaadt]

Roger,

Thanks for the excellent winter camping photo/word essay. Lots of good pointers.

As a backcountry skier I'm thinking of buying and modding a Tarptent Scarp 2 just because I like the basic design. (Ripstop nylon interior, natch.)

1. I'll cut down the "crossing poles" and run them inside the fly, sewing in small Cordura in pockets at the apex of the CF corner struts to recieve the pole ends. Velcro cable ties hold the poles in place at the center top. Much better canopy support for wind and snow load with the poles inside the fly.

2. A heavier main pole in the sleeve is also a must for winter.

3. As with my TT Moment I'll have pre-made guylines (end clips and LineLoc tensioners) that I can quickly clip in place when winds are expected.

4.> Possibly eight to ten small grossgrain nylon loops sewn to the fly bottom hem for stakeout points if wind might be extreme.

Thoughts?

UPDATE: (1-22-'14)

DONE! Got the Scarp 2 and modded it. (See photos and text in BPL's "Winter Hiking" page.) The main thing was to buy a heavier duty main pole and move the X-ing poles inside for excellent fly support.

[Mary D]

Average April 1 snow depth at the snow test site at 5400 feet (~1650 m) elevation on the south side of Mt. Hood, our local volcano, is 140 inches. That's close to 12 feet or, for you metric folks, 355 cm. or 3.6 m. Of course this can vary widely from year to year.

In some storms, the daily snowfall can be measured in feet rather than inches, and more often than not it's heavy, soggy snow (aka Cascade concrete). Could be rather hard on almost any tent unless removed frequently during the night!

Shovels are required for those venturing into avalanche territory. In a lot of places around here, avalanche safety is really important.

[Confused Newbie]

I just found this thread…and would love to start winter or shoulder season backpacking. I hope you will pardon some novice questions:

1) Years ago I took a snowcamping class in Oregon. It was fun, but I was chilled the whole time. When you wintercamping folks are in your tent, are you chilled (not dangerously so, but just uncomfortable)? I'm wondering if I just need a warmer sleeping system, or warmer clothing.

2) Do you find bivy sacks useful to help keep warm?

3) Do you worry about gloves and shoelaces freezing? Do the tents keep them warm enough?

4) I live near the northern Colorado Rockies, and one thing that happens when a cold front comes in is that, depending on conditions, topography can cause 20F variations in temperature, so a cold front that brings in 0F (-17F) to some areas can cause -30F (-34) in certain valleys. While this might happen only once or twice a year, is this something that you experienced folks think about, ending up in conditions where cold pools in a valley (not small topographic variations like being near a tarn, but over larger regions).

5) At what temperature do you decide it isn't fun? Not that I am going to go out as a novice in really cold conditions, I'm just curious.

Thanks, Bobb.

[Bob Gross]

Some of your questions might be answered with this one rule about winter camping.

If you can stay absolutely dry, it isn't that hard to stay warm. As soon as you start getting wet from rain, from snow, from sweat, or falling in the stream, you are in trouble unless you can recover and dry out in a hurry.

For some folks, that means bringing a wider variety of clothing until you understand exactly what works and what doesn't.

–B.G.–

[Eric Lundquist]

I recently spent my first night winter camping with a few fellow BPLers. To answer a few of your questions:

1. In your tent or shelter you might be cold, it is mostly blocking some/all of the wind and precipitation. You should not be chilled when inside your sleep system, however.

2. I also tried a bivy for the first time during my winter outing, it may have been warmer (they're often stated at adding 5-15* to a sleep system), but I found it invaluable in blocking the spindrift under my tarp.

3. Keep your insulating/liner gloves dry and with you in your sleeping bag if they get a little damp during the day, they should dry out from your body head overnight. You can place a nalgene bottle of hot/boiling water in your boots in the morning to soften them up if frozen/stiff.

4/5. If I had the proper insulating equipment (-20* bag, parka, pants, etc.), I would not hesitate to go camping in such cold weather. Blowing wind, heavy snow, and whiteout conditions are my fears when winter camping. If the temperature is going to be really cold, you might consider building a snow cave or quinzee. The interior temperature in these shelters can be at or near freezing (32*).

[Paul McLaughlin]

Bobb – here are my thoughts:
1) You should not be cold like that. My feeling is that If am ever cold while I am out in the mountains, one of two things is going on: I've blown it; Or I'm in a transition between activity levels and amounts of clothing and haven't quite adjusted yet (like when you start out a little cold because you took off a layer knowing you're about to go up a big hill and you'll warm up soon). If you are hanging out in camp and you are cold, you're not wearing the right clothing for the conditions.

2) Bivy sacks add a little warmth, but not much, except for when you are actually sleeping outside a shelter and the bivy sack is cutting the wind – then it can be significant. If, instead of carrying a bivy sack,you carry a sleeping bag with added insulation, that will give you more added warmth than the bivy sack for the same added weight, assuming you ar in some sort of shelter (tent/cave/igloo, etc).

3) Gloves go in the sleeping bag with me at night. Shoelaces – well, this no longer applies for me since my skis boots have buckles and not laces, but when I did have boots with laces I used them as underlayment for my pillow or placed them between my tentmate and myself, and never had frozen laces.

4) This happens all the time, and it's pretty much habit for me to pick campsites that up of the valley bottom a ways to avoid it. It doesn't usually take much to make a difference.

5) It isn't fun anytime the conditions are beyond what you are equipped for and prepared for in terms of experience. So the real trick is to know what temperatures are too low for your gear.

[Confused Newbie]

Thanks for all the insight. Looks like my snowcamping experience was misleading. I think it might be worthwhile to peruse some of the gearlists to get a feel for what equipment is needed.

[Elliott Wolin]

No chance to read the entire thread, maybe someone said this already:

In a winter camping course in 1973 I was told to try to be comfortably cool the entire time. Cool to avoid sweating, but never cold. Exceptions have been noted earlier, e.g. just after a big change in activity level and in the middle of adjusting clothing.

I've camped many times in the winter, -15F the coldest I recall (or was it -20F), but I was never cold for any length of time, neither during the day or in my sleeping bag. This is an easy goal to achieve. If you are cold for than a few moments then you are doing something wrong.

[Steven Vilter]

A study looking at climbers during a season on Denali/ Mt. Mc Kinley asked for a blood sample on the way up and on the way out. They asked one question, "Did you cook in your tent?". Everyone who cooked in the tent had elevated carbon monoxide levels as compared to those who didn't. Even in the windiest conditions, and I think Denali qualifies, it is risky to cook in your vestibule. Even if you don't die, you risk illness and decreased performance. I build a kitchen with a pit and snow blocks and wait for a relative lull to cook.

[Eric Blumensaadt]

As I've mentioned many times here in BPL, my solution for keeping my feet warm all day is to use:

1.boots with REMOVABLE LINERS (they go insie your sleeping bag overnight)

2. VAPOR BARRIER LINERS (I much prefer seam sealed thin neoprene diver's socks with thin poly liner socks. Even thin 1/8" Neoprene is waterproof AND very warm.)
Change out sweaty poly liners every night and turn the neoprene VBLs inside out to dry at night and warm up in your bag.

[Roger Caffin]

> Everyone who cooked in the tent had elevated carbon monoxide levels as compared to
> those who didn't.
I understand the point of the quote, but I have to reply that the data is almost meaningless if the types of stoves used is not known and the amount of ventilation used is unknown. And what about the weather?

For instance, if every climber was using an MSR Reactor, the result is to be expected. The Reactor emits an almost lethal amount of CO, as measured in our series on CO levels: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/stoves_tents_carbon_monoxide_pt_3.html

If the climbers had their stove wound up to full power and were melting lots of snow, then there could be a lot of flame quenching and a fair bit of CO emitted as well (depending on the stove and the pot). If this was done with inadequate ventilation, then the tent is going to hold a bit of CO. Fair enough, but that's not the fault of the stove: it's the fault of the user.

Why blame the user? If someone travels in avalanche territory without taking the appropriate precautions we would have no trouble saying they were stupid. The same applies to using a stove (or driving a car).

I don't think a blanket statement like 'it is risky to cook in your vestibule' is either useful or even relevant. Knowing what the hazards are and taking appropriate precautions is far better (like, don't set out in a howling storm). Cooking in the vestibule with adequate ventilation means you are out of the wind and able to rug up with your quilt or SB: that may be far safer than sitting out in the wind and going hypothermic. Experienced snow travellers and climbers cook in the vestibule all the time, quite safely.

As for the suggestion to 'wait for a relative lull to cook' – sorry, but that is farcical. What do you do when the storm lasts 36 hours? Or several weeks, as can happen in the Antarctic? OK, the idea might work under some conditions, but not where I ski.

Cheers

[Roger Caffin]

> boots with REMOVABLE LINERS (they go inside your sleeping bag overnight)
CAUTION: all the moisture from the liners will end up inside the down in your SB. After a few days you may have a rather heavy soggy SB. I am not keen on this idea. OK, for 1 or 2 nights it is probably safe.

Cheers

[Mobile Calculator]

…

[BlackHatGuy]

"I propose donating each expedition member donate $1 to the future widow fund, and … his wife will be well compensated."

Boy do we ever have a different idea of well compensated…..

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