what lines work with the Lineloc 3 ladder?

[Roger Caffin]

Having looked at the photos and thought about it for a little while, I have to say I find the idea of relying on one of those Linelocs for a tent guy rope in a storm is a bit scary.

Cheers

[Michael Cheifetz]

some updates – i made a bit more testing with some weight and indeed some lines slipped (by no means comprehensive testing) – specifically the zpacks 100% dyneema slips – this is maybe to be expected (i emailed joe and he revised the blurb in the website to reflect this – very good of him IMO)
triptease didnt slip in my 20KG test…but i do start to wonder if some more serious testing isnt in place.
Ron@MLD says he tested wet loading and non of the light lines he used worked well enough so he stuck with the yellow 3mm for the TS….

Maybe someone here can do some serious testing (specifically several kinds of line, wet static load and wet hammering mode)

RE roger – why is it specifically that you are worried?

ps – rog – one plus for this system is that you can tighten it form the tent…so ostensibly you could in a storm hold all the lines yourself during the night ;)

Mike

[Roger Caffin]

> why is it specifically that you are worried?
Hum … OK, good Q.

A trivial answer would be that once I go to bed I don't want to have to get up again until it's breakfast time. Especially in bad weather.

A more serious answer would be that Sue and I really rely on some of our gear, and we do rely on the tent to shelter us when the weather is bad. We are often out for a week or so, without recourse to bail-outs. If the gear is prone to failure, and guy ropes which don't hold are a failure, then I am definitely going to worry. Especially as that is something I can fix – replace with something better at home.

Some of the places we go are not visited very often (once every 5 years?), and in some places I doubt we would be found. Yeah, people do just dissappear.

Cheers

[Michael Cheifetz]

I assume you were toying w us :)

to re phrase what i asked: what in the technical design or such of the lineloc3 (as opposed to say the regular linelocs that IIRC you use) made you stop and think this would not make a good tensioning solution for a tent

M

[Ken Thompson]

No comment on Roger being sacred?

Too scared to say?

Beware the wrath.

[Roger Caffin]

> what in the technical design or such of the lineloc3 (as opposed to say the regular
> linelocs that IIRC you use) made you stop and think this would not make a good
> tensioning solution for a tent
Well, that general design works OK with webbing, although it needs a bit more of a wrap or bend to be really effective, but for string … I think there is just too much room for the free end of the cord to get out from under the tensioned end. Once that happens, goodbye to any holding power. Too much of a gamble imho for anything dynamic.

Some people find them OK when used with narrow ribbon or fat soft string. Yes, that is likely, because the 'string' is making a transition to 'webbing', which is handled muh better by this (generic) design. But thin hard round cord – no thanks.

I use ClamCleats (R) rope cleats, the smallest ones, called CL-266, found at http://www.clamcleats.com/ . They work very well in my experience because the string gets jammed in harder when there is tension. Mind you, while they are specified for string down to 1 mm, I think I would prefer to start at about 1.5 mm. Nylon or Dacron is usually better than one of the really hard fibres like Spectra, as the softer weave and fibre locks in better.

Btw, the glow-in-the-dark ones are kinda cute. They glow for quite some time.

You might like to note that these are actually sold by many other places (eg tent vendors) under different names, but afaik they all come from this source. (Patents…) The company does sell from their web site too, at US$4.63/12 for the CL-266s, which I reckon is pretty good. P&P extra I imagine. There are bigger ones too. The glow ones are a little dearer.

Cheers

[Sam Farrington]

If it fails, you can run the line through the web loop to which it is secured, and secure the line with a tautline hitch. For my pack frame, I'd have to remove the pack, and tie knots in the cord, but at least it would be daylight. With the tent or tarp, it could be in the middle of the night. Either way, a PITA in a storm.

If there have been failures with 3 mm non-slick cord, it would be nice to know.
It is a great little device to save weight and space in numerious applications, but if there's a good chance of failure, I agree with Roger – not worth it.

But those tiny half inch and smaller ladderlock web buckles don't impress me as being very strong either. I had a tiny little acetal loop on a Zamberlan boot hook break the other day in a place where the material was just as large as some of the cross pieces on those tiny little buckles. The temporary cure for the boot was the same, to temporarily use the web loop behind the hook thingy to hold the lace.
Fortunately, there was no storm going on.

Maybe these acetal connectors should be tested to failure at a certain number of pounds of force, with other things being equal, like the webbing, tape or cord and degree of dampness.

[Ron Bell / MLD]

The great thing about Linelocs- if you like them, great, if not- it's So Easy to cut off and go retro.

fyi- the one linelock in the pics above is from a big batch that were mis-sized from one big 2010/2011 production run. I think it has a # 2 stamped/cast on the back- ITW had 4-8 different dies for that part and one was damaged and this one is from that die- you can see the small horizontal indent on the cross bar from the top. (We were the ones to first notify ITW of the issue.)

That effectively made the front hole smaller and allowed slightly smaller like to work ok but made slightly larger line a pain to thread. Only about 1 in 8 were that smaller size hole and the rest had the standard smaller smooth round cross bars. ( We noted this and sorted through about 10,000 of them on the big table for a few hours one day in 2011- 1 in 8 were the small size-details, details…)

This may account for some folks noting a 2mm line works well. BUT- I know that every rope mfgr measures thier small line a bit differently so one guys 2mm is another's 2.5- so just stating a small line size has little meaning except for comparison within the same rope company/product group.

We are working with ITW on a true 2mm size but it may be quite a ways off, until then my opinion is bigger 3mm ish line is better for the correct size linelocs and if you want smaller then maybe a 1.5mm and small clamcleat camlocks are better.

[Daryl and Daryl]

Ron,

Thanks for the update.

This is getting interesting.

Lets see:

*several different versions of linelocs
*many many versions of cord
*several versions of cords even with same spec
*infinite # of in-field variations
*subjective input from user
*etc.

I think one of us should set up a controlled testing of all possible combos (or maybe just the first 1000) and report back.

[cat in grass]

> "On the bottom were the cord converges its a U shape and it should of been a V shape."

Not V but T-shape slit as in Clamcleats would be much much better.
I have no camera to make a photo, sorry,
but if you look at them you will see an excellent design, especially on the larger one for 3-6mm cord (#CL260) with a sophisticated shape which is even different at both sides… This is how all sings should be designed.
I also wish that someone (let's assign Ron@MLD as a ''guilty'') forced Clamcleats to make a perfect size for the cords all tent makers use the most – middle size between micro CL266 and the giant CL260.

[Fred eric]

When i first saw the cord provided by MLD for my trailstar i thought it was overkill and heavy and that i could use lighter.

I replaced them with a 2.3mm lighter one, all went well for about 50 nights a few off them on Scotland TGO 2012 with strong winds.
I dont know if the cord was less rough with some use or what, but on the 2013 TGO i had during 2 nights with high winds first the rear linerloc then another one that let the cord slip.

No damage to the shelter i just had to stake directly through the webbings, but i am going back to thicker cord asap.

[Author]

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