Looking to go lighter still

[Kenneth Jacobs]

Isn't minimum 7? 3 on the back (sides & center), 4 on the front (Base & Fly)?

[michael levi]

6-7 stakes then, I use a UL1 and im at 31.9 oz (just a hair under 2 pounds). The Ul2 is 4 oz heavier.

I would probally keep the UL2 and use the money for a lighter pack and drop some serious ounces. Look into a Zpacks blast, do this last though.

If you do want to get another shelter get something sub – 1 pound where you will actually notice the weight savings, like a cuben shelter.

[Jason Darby]

I believe the non-hooded version is the Hadron Down Cardigan, and I think the fill weight is 2.0oz of 850 fill down.
As far as fit goes, I usually wear a Large in outer layers, and the Hadron Anorak fits as I would expect it to. With only a t-shirt on underneath it's not too baggy, yet I can still fit it over a t-shirt and fleece (Patagonia R1 Hoody) easily with room to spare. The wrist cuffs are elastic, so it gets tight in the wrists with multiple layers, but everywhere else it is rather comfy.
The company (Stoic) describes the fit as 3D Ergonomic which doesn't really mean anything to me. I would describe it as "regular fit" as opposed to "slim fit" or "loose fit" if that helps any.

[Remington Roth]

I saw your comment about being a tank.

For your reference, and others should correct me if I'm wrong, ultralight (UL) is classified as below ten pounds as a base weight; super ultralight (SUL) is below five pounds base weight; for the chosen few, extremely ultralight (XUL) is below three pounds base weight.

Now my two cents:

I think you'll find that after going on your trip you can reflect on what you actually used. For instance, I initially had a hard time bringing only one set of clothes. Then I realized I only ever used one set anyways. Take a hard look at what you really need. Question and weigh everything. Count ounces (or tenths of ounces if you're especially motivated), not pounds. Try and develop your gear list over time. I don't know about you, but I'm not made of money. Budget and chip away at your base weight. Focus on making smart purchases and maybe even dabble in making your own gear if it's cost effective (and you have the talent). Also, take full advantage of this site and read reviews, look at gear lists, and use gear swap before buying anything – you'll save yourself a lot of time and money by buying the right gear the first time. When I first started to lower my weight, I made a few purchases only to realize I bought the wrong things (and had to try and sell them later on). I'm new to this site too (I joined a month ago); I really wish I had been fortunate enough to find it sooner.

For context, my base weight progression (specifically for a March AT trip in VA):
2010 – 34 lbs
2011 – 10 lbs
2012 – 6.5 lbs

Don't feel too bad about 18 pounds as a base weight (34 is embarrassing), but try not to dwell there…

[David Ure]

What base weight is Super Duper Really Super Duper Ultralight or SDRSDU?

[michael levi]

That would be a grocery bag flapping in the wind.

[Andy F]

Ken,

Make two gear lists. One of them is what you need to survive without breaking laws or putting yourself in danger. The other is extras–what you like to have with you on a trip. Go on two day hikes, carrying all of your survive + extras gear on the first, and then carry only your bare essential overnight gear on the second.

If those hikes aren't very insightful, then go on a longer overnight trip (or car camp?) with each set of gear.

[Jake D]

Yep, I can't advise shake down hikes enough. I did a bunch of hiking before I did my long trip.. a few weekend trips and a 4 day section hike. It does a lot to show you what you need/like and what you don't.

It also helps you build a routine that makes you efficient. Especially if you have gear you haven't used much before.

[Dena Kelley]

Remington's advice (as well as other's) is very sound. OP mentioned being raised with a "Be Prepared" mentality and I was as well. Which generally resulted in me having 3 cutting tools, 5 ways to start fire, an emergency shelter as well as my tent, 2 sets of spare clothes, etc. My initial attempt to move to a more UL style involved extreme psychological discomfort as I reduced my redundant gear. And the reality is, I never used more than one blade. I never used more than one fire starting method. I never used my space blanket. Etc. I won't leave an item behind that would affect my safety- IE I carry a first aid kit- but I have considerably reduced it from the gigantic expedition FAK to a small FAK that focuses on having the stuff I really need and none of the stuff I don't. I'm not UL yet. My base weight is 15 lbs. But considering I used to have a base weight of 40, I feel like I've made progress. :)

The best advice outside of this forum I've found is Mike Clelland's YouTube vids and Andy Skurka's blog site. I have Andy Skurka's book as well, and plan to buy Mike Clelland's book. Hikelight.com has a good (free) online book (PDF) you can download, and sample gear lists as well.

[Kenneth Jacobs]

Thank you to everyone for all their input thus far! This is all great information you are providing. I keep working on my gear lists daily and doing more research…and most importantly, questioning myself a LOT on my "wants vs needs".

[Remington Roth]

SDRSDU = nude trail running

[Kenneth Jacobs]

Current base pack weight is now down to 18.563lbs. from 19.650lbs. with some removals and modifications.

[michael levi]

Your goal now should be to cut that weight in half.

[Erik Basil]

For reference, my kit is heavier than yours and I also carry redundancy in fire-starting, medical supplies and water treatment. I have had to use all three in different situations.

I see a couple of places you can shave a little, for a little:

–Compass. You've got a nice one, but check out the 24-gram Brunton Trooper. There's a thread on it in Gear Deals and I can vouch for it as an effective tool for map and XC use (also becomes your e-mirror).

–Knife/Multitool. That Mora you mention above is a cool idea, but so is a carbon or stainless-bladed Opinel #8. Large blade, under two ounces. Leathermans are beefy/heavy for what you get. I love'em, just not in my backpack.

–Folding Bucket. Okay, I carry one of these when I'm in groups, and also what you can replace it with: 2-gallon ziploc. That's large enough to fill, suds, shake and rinse with for laundry. Ounces saved.

–Tent Footprint. Personally, I don't want to buy a new tent or have a leaker, so I use one…just not the BA version. Some 2-mil painters plastic is beefy enough to last on your trip, but lighter by maybe an ounce.

To me, you have a solid kit with reliable products.

[Remington Roth]

Michael is right. It's absolutely possible for you to cut that weight in half.

I noticed that you've planned to carry 1.5 lbs of food per day. I realize that food needs vary between people, but if you're planning to hike a lot, then that probably won't be enough (someone please correct me if I'm wrong!) I've taken that amount of food on a five-day AT trip over 110 miles, but that was a planned calorie deficit. I wanted to experiment with how that might feel. I purposefully gained weight in advance. Over the course of the trip, I lost six pounds. I learned that I definitely wanted to carry more food in the future. For reference, I'm 5'10 and 155-160 lbs. I imagine nine days would have been especially unhealthy for me (more so than the five days already were.)

Also, it's important to realize that the weight of packaged food is not equal to the weight of food one might have. It always surprises me how much packaging weighs (so you'll want to repackage everything.)

Perhaps you've already considered this food conversation. but there's a lot more to it. Here's a helpful link if you're interested:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/pounds_per_person_per_day_ppppd.html

[Ken Thompson]

Marmot Super Mica 8.7 Gorillapod
3 Grey Chinese Buff 1.1 Doubles as pillowcase 12.8oz – GoalZERO Solar Charger
4 Lands End Beanie 1.5 10oz? – Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS20?
5 Nike Pro Combat Leggings 5.6 Look for lighter option? iPhone charger
6 Arcteryx Phase SL Crew LS 3.7 4oz? – Possible trimmed CCF mat for sitting/napping on
7 Liner Socks Get weight
8 Tall REI Organic Merino Wool Socks 2.8 6.3oz – GoalZERO Battery Charger
9 Marmot Zeus Jacket 14.3 Replace w/ Marmot Variant – 12.8oz Timelapse App
10 Nike Pro Combat LS Shirt 8.3 Look for lighter option?
11 Outdoor Research Ultra Trail Gaiters 3.0
12 Patagonia Houdini (S) 3.5
13 Vivobarefoot Ultra Pures 6.5
14 Bison Designs CF Belt 2.1
15 HEAD Running Gloves 1.4 Total Clothing: 62.5 oz

Too much clothes…

16
17 General Equipment: oz
18 Sea To Summit Bug Head Net w/ Bag (Insect Sheild) 1.0
19 ~29ft Dyneema Cord 1.1 Measure actual length left
20 Petzl Headlamp w/ Lithum Batteries in Ziploc 1.9 2.3oz with alkaline batteries
21 Potty Bag w/ 2 Full TP Mini Rolls & GSI Cathole Trowel 5.2
22 Sea to Summit Netting Bag (M – 9.0L) 0.5 Contains all smaller items
23 M-Shades Sunglasses In Soft (Black M-Shades Bag) 1.1
24 Bag of Misc (Sunscreen, Bug Spray, Chapstick, BA Stuff, etc.) 10.5 May want to add some kind of moisturizer (scent free) & swap for smaller hand sanitiser bottle this is way too much of everything. repackage.

25 Exped Skrink Bag 6.4 Clothes Storage, Pad and Pillow Inflation, Waterproof Storage of Everything Kept in Tent
26 TarpTent Moment w/ Polycryo Ground Cloth 33.6
27 Granite Gear Blaze A.C. Pack 47.0 See about trimming straps and reweigh bag with pockets

28 Gregory Pack Cover (M) 4.9 ditch, dead weight with you using waterproof sacks

29 Granite Gear Uberlight Dry Sack 0.7 Waterproof Clothes Bag
30 MicroBiners X 3 0.3
31 Black Diamond Trail Ergo Cork Trekking Poles 19.4
32 White Bandana 1.2
33 Mora Classic 2/0 Knife 1.8
34
35 Emergency Equipment: oz
36 Suunto MC-2G Navigator Compass 2.6
37 REI Tripower Whistle – Gutted 0.6
38 Fully aLOKSAK'd First Aid Kit w /SAK SwissCard 9.3 Rewatch Gossimer Gear video and determine what is really needed

You could easily cut this in half, at least.

39 8 – Water Purification Tabs 0.2
40
41 Repair Equipment: oz
42 Mattress/Air Pillow Repair Kit & Clothes Bag Repair Kit 0.5
43 Gear Aid Tenacious Tape 0.7
44 50" Duct Tape Roll 0.0 0.8 – Figure out if really needed in addition to Gear Aid Tape NO!

45 Sewing Kit w/ Velcro Strap in Film Can 0.5 Double check this weight
46
47 Sleeping Equipment: oz
48 Exped Schnozzle 0.6
49 Exped Air Pillow UL (L) 2.2
50 Exped SynMat UL 7 (M) 16.8
51 ZPacks 20deg. 17.1
52
53 Water Storage andPurification Equipment: oz
54 Platypus Platy Bottle – 70 fl. Oz 1.3
55 Aquafina 1L Bottle w/ Sport Cap 1.3
56 Squeeze w/ 1 Evnw. (30oz) and 1 Swyr. Bag (32oz) & Cleaner 6.3
57
58 Fire and Cooking Equipment: oz
59 Evnw 0.6L + LiteMax + 4oz. Canister + MSR Spork + Zpack Bag 13.6 21.5 – Figure out if both fuel cans are needed
60 Light My Fire Fire Steel w/ Dyneema Cord 0.9
61 Bic Mini Lighter (De-Childproofed) 0.4
62 8 Fire Starter Pellets in a Ziploc 0.0 0.6 – Consider removing after improving fire building skills
63 LightLoad Towel 0.3
64 3 Wetfire Tinders and Emergency Ti ESBIT Stove in Bag 1.3 17.222 lbs
65
66 Luxury Equipment: oz
67 Sea to Summit Netting Bag (XL – 20L) 0.7 For hanging clothes on bag to dry
68 Golite Chrome Dome 8.0
69 SpongeScratch Free Scrubber in Ziploc Bag 0.3
70 Sea To Summit Ultra-Sil® Dry Daypack 3.2
71 LRI Photon Freedom Kit in Plastic Can (Red) 0.8 To preserve night vision 18.034 lbs
72
73 JMT Equipment: oz
74 iPhone 4S in aLOKSAK 6.0
75 Tom Harrison Maps in Map Case 3.7
76 MSR Pack Towl Nano L w/ Trimmed ShamWOW Wash Rag 1.4
77 10L Folding Bucket w/o Case & w/ Velcro Strap 2.9 For washing clothes unneeded
78 Bearikade Expedition 37.0
79
80 TOTAL: 339.6 21.221875 lbs
81 With Full Aquafina 1L & 2.0L Platypus: 27.71625 lbs
82 With water and food for 9 days (1.5lbs/day of food): 41.21625 lbs
83
84 Worn Clothing: oz
85 Kuhl Liberator Convertible Pants 13.9
86 Tall REI Organic Merino Wool Socks 2.8
87 Maxis Tub Hat 3.3
88 Phase SL Crew SS T-Shirt 2.6
89 Timex Expedition Watch 0.8
90

[Aaron Sorensen]

Ken,

How much lighter are you looking in to getting?

The only piece of gear I would get are some lighter treking poles.
The rest of the list is just double of "everything" you need.

Check out the list bellow and see what it adds up to.
Everything else you are bringing is just another of something you will have no use of it (or don't need it)while on the trail.

Lands End Beanie 1.5
Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS20?
iPhone & charger
Nike Pro Combat LS Shirt 8.3
Replace w/ Marmot Variant – 12.8oz
Patagonia Houdini (S) 3.5
Outdoor Research Ultra Trail Gaiters 3.0
M-Shades Sunglasses In Soft (Black M-Shades Bag) 1.1
HEAD Running Gloves 1.4
Tall REI Organic Merino Wool Socks 2.8
Bag of Misc (Sunscreen, Bug Spray, Chapstick, BA Stuff, etc.) (cut weight in half)

Petzl Headlamp w/ Lithum Batteries in Ziploc 1.9 2.3oz with alkaline batteries
Treking poles (lighter)
Bic Mini Lighter
Evnw 0.6L + LiteMax + 4oz. Canister + MSR Spork + Zpack Bag 13.6
Sea To Summit Ultra-Sil® Dry Daypack 3.2 + trashbag 1.1
Tom Harrison Maps in Map Case 3.7
Trimmed ShamWOW Wash Rag 1.4

Bearikade Expedition 37.0
Platypus Platy Bottle – 70 fl. Oz 1.3
Aquafina 1L Bottle w/ Sport Cap 1.3

Exped Air Pillow UL (L) 2.2
Exped SynMat UL 7 (M) 16.8
ZPacks 20deg. 17.1

Kuhl Liberator Convertible Pants 13.9
Tall REI Organic Merino Wool Socks 2.8
Maxis Tub Hat 3.3
Phase SL Crew SS T-Shirt 2.6
Timex Expedition Watch 0.8

You can ditch everything else.

[Kenneth Jacobs]

Aaron

I'm looking to get just below 15 lbs. within a year. After that it would be great to get just below 10 lbs. I feel that will take some personal adjustment on my end.

I will try to figure out how to upload my latest spreadsheets (current and desired weigh) so people are able to see some of the changes I've already made. I've already cut down my FAK to 6.5oz while making it even more functional. I could probably cut it down another 0.5oz, but am not super confident that an unprotected aLOKSAK in my pack will survive without acquiring a hole, defeating it's function. It is currently in a gutted simple nylon zip pocket that fits the aLOKSAK exactly…I kinda view it not only as protection but a platform on which I can place FAK supplies as I take them out of the aLOKSAK, and a holder of used/dirty medical supplies. I could switch to a custom cuben one perhaps and chop 0.4oz.

KJ

[michael levi]

An extra half ounce here and there at this point is meaningless. I'm not sure why your goal is only a 15 pound baseweight, maybe its because you don't get out hiking much. A 15 pound baseweight before liquids sounds like agony.

With all of the lightweight companies out there today you should be able to pick and choose the lightest options you can. And I might add that you can do this with virtually no loss of comfort or practicality.

As far as your clothing plan on bringing the clothes on your back plus a few very lightweight needs, like a poncho and an extra pair of socks.

I'm sorry but when this thread was made I knew people were going to scrutinize you for your current weight and target weight. That said there is no reason why you would want to carry that much weight unless it's because you font get out much, or do not cover many miles.

[Kenneth Jacobs]

I did just fine covering 33 miles in three days this past July in CO up on the divide, with 36 lbs. on my back and zero conditioning…and then another 9 mile hike the following day with my girl. To each their own I suppose. HYOH. I have no problem having my equipment lists scrutinized (I thought that was the point in posting your list here??). I do have a problem when people CHOOSE to be rude or assumptive.

I understand that there is plenty lightweight equipment and plenty lightweight equipment companies out there to choose from. Not everyone can afford to buy their way into lightness. I'm taking this one step at a time. I'd rather consider the benefits, multiple uses and use scenarios of everything before I just go buying things. If I didn't do that I probably would have wasted a bunch of money on tents and such that didn't really fit my needs. Rome wasn't built in a day and a lightweight MINDSET is not something that is acquired overnight.

I appreciate everyone's input. I respect those that chose to use manners.

Is this not a place for people starting out?

[Kenneth Jacobs]

Understand on the clothes. I kinda just have all my clothes in there as a "worst case, everything you might need to carry during a winter trip" kinda thing. Doesn't mean that's everything I bring with me every time.

I will be going through the misc bag soon and seeing how I can minimize it. Please note that this also includes all my "bathroom stuff" and some other things not listed in the short detail. Either way, agree that that needs to get smaller along with me getting a better understanding of how much of everything I really need for any given amount of time.

Pack cover will either be ditched or replaced with a Zpacks Cuben Pack Cover (L) – 1.4oz down the road. What is your viewpoint on putting my tent (pole and stakes excluded of course) in the shrink bag with my sleeping bag and air pillow? You see any negatives to doing this?

The duct tape roll has already exited the equipment since starting this thread.

Don't know if you caught the header the bucket was under, but that equipment is only for my JMT trip I'm planning for next year. Do you still feel it is unneeded? If so how do you suggest cleaning my clothes away from water sources? I just don't want to pollute the water…even if it is just Dr. Bronners.

I've updated (locally) the spreadsheet you pulled that from and now have a target base weight of 14.994 lbs not including the "Luxury Equipment:" and "JMT Equipment:".

One step at a time.

[Dena Kelley]

Ken-

Despite the occasional judgmental remark from someone here, I do think this is a good place for us beginners. I've learned a lot in the short time I've been on this site. Asking for gear list scrutiny seems to be one of the quickest ways to get brutal honesty out of people, so it's best to just expect that and let it roll off if they're a little more blunt than what you wanted.

As to getting into light weight stuff at a decent price, keep an eye on the gear sales/swap on this forum. I've seen some screaming good deals on there, and wish I'd known to look there FIRST as I bought a Big Agnes Fly Creek UL2 on ebay that I could have gotten cheaper here and have seen at least 3 for sale in the past month or so. I am keeping an eye on the threads for a good 0 degree down bag, and did recently buy a pack from a member here. This is also a superb place to read gear reviews to ensure that the piece of gear you're interested in doesn't have any drawbacks you aren't already aware of.

~D

[Mary D]

Please note that on this forum you're among a majority of people whose base pack weight (everything but fuel, food, water and clothing worn) is 10 lbs. or less. In other words, from the point of view of most folks here, you have a long way to go. If you put up a 20 lb. base weight gear list asking for help and then reject nearly all the recommendations, you have to expect folks to become a bit impatient!

I didn't think it was possible either 7 years ago. I'm still rather a heavyweight around here as my base weight is 12.0 lbs., although that includes my camera (omitted from most gear lists, even when photos of the trip are included!) and fishing gear. It also includes everything I need for comfort and safety in a high alpine environment, where it can snow or go down to 15*F even in the middle of summer. Being an old lady, I get cold easily and need a lot of padding for my creaky old bones and joints, one reason I'm in the "heavyweight" portion of this group.

If I did it, you can, too! I'd also like to point out that it was only with the last three pounds (i.e. getting under 15 lbs. base weight) that I had to spend any significant money. I got down to 15 lbs. spending $190 total to replace heavy tent and pack (eliminating 3 lbs. for each item) (I did luck onto some sales, which you should watch for). Only the sleeping bag involved a large expense–that was because I decided to go for the "Cadillac" of sleeping bags, Western Mountaineering, as much for comfort as for weight savings. The rest of my weight reduction–well over half– was primarily through eliminating duplicate or unneeded items.

Suggested reading:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00034.html
Many of the gear items are outdated, but the basic principles definitely are not. The last chapter describes how to lighten up on a budget.

http://topshotsystems.com/Lightweight_Scouting_Dissertation.pdf
For Scouts, but works for the rest of us, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YflSOY91uS4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoQrFW_3zPs&feature=relmfu
A two-part video showing a pack makeover by Grant Sible of Gossamer Gear. Note that in this 18 minutes, Grant cut 10 lbs. from the Scout leader's pack–with her full agreement and without any purchase of new gear.

[Tjaard Breeuwer]

Hi Ken,

Would you post your updated list? I am having a hard time understanding what exactly you are bringing.

Please post a list for one trip, the different options for different trips are confusing to me. Make sure you include clothing worn/ items carried as well, it all counts!

I would suggest getting Andrew Skurka's book, as he has some very good and clear packlists. Chris Townsend and Justin Lichter also have good books, but their gear lists are not very clear. By the way, they are both guys who DO hike alot, yet don't have terribly light packs.
(Here is a list from Chris Townsend: http://www.tgomagazine.co.uk/home/news/gearnews/Chriss-gear-list)

As far as the clothes washing:
1- You are right, never wash clothes in the lake/river
2- As Jake? mentioned, how often will you actually wash anything but socks?
3- Do it in a drybag you are already carrying instead of bringing a special bucket.

I agree it is often hard to dig a cathole. How about getting a Ti V stake and sharpening the edge, then using it as a non structural stake, don't want your tent to fall down when you go out to take a dump!

I would not suggest skimping on stakes! Stakes only way between 0.2 and 0.4 oz each. Penny wise, pound foolish! If you save 0.5 oz of stakes and then your shelter collapses, you might as well have brought no shelter to begin with.

[Kenneth Jacobs]

Mary, Tjaard & Dena

Thanks for the tips! I will look into the stuff you posted.

Tjaard, I will post a bit more clear spreadsheets shortly that don't include all my other gear and such. I also like your insight of just using one of my dry bags to wash clothes in! That's the type of tips I feel I need more than anything.

Dena, I've been watching the Gear Swap. Already nabbed myself a brand new Stoic Hadron Andorak.

[Author]

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