20 degree wet weather clothing, again?

[James holden]

Fleece is great for on the move, but its pretty ineffifcient from an insulation standpoint compared to even synth

If you can find a good deal on a synth, id go for it personally …

The advantage of synth is that its decently light these days an with an exl you dont need to worry about anything … You can have full confidence that no matter how screeewed you are your system will keep you alive

[Jerry Adams]

"is why I recommend layering scheme using a mid layer like Power Stretch or R1 with a windshirt and higher loft insulation with 100g or greater synthetc fill, or down in drier climates."

But, just doing the arithmetic, fleece or fabric have much lower warmth per weight.

Better to have base layer, insulation layer, jacket – and that's it.

When hiking, just base layer and jacket – that works for me down to 20 F but just barely, I have to hike briskly to stay warm. If that isn't enough to stay warm in a particular condition, then I concede mid layer is good.

Having a warm hat and/or hood can sometimes keep you warm with just base layer and jacket, and you can easily remove when you get too warm.

To put it another way, rather than carrying a mid layer that weighs 10 ounces, have an insulation layer that weighs 2 ounces more than you would have otherwise.

[David Ure]

"You can have full confidence that no matter how screeewed you are your system will keep you alive"

How so? At what temps? In what conditions? Where?

[Jerry Adams]

I went out for a couple nights.

Weather report said only a slight chance of a sprinkle so I left my tent behind.

It rained about 1 inch and got my sleeping bag quite wet. It was about 40 F.

Since it was synthetic rather than down I was much more comfortable although not life or death situation.

I think that's the point – it is possible to keep down dry, but if you screw up, which most people occasionally do, it can get wet. In this case you're better off with synthetic.

[James holden]

like that time yr bivy soaked through yr down bag david, but yr synth clothing saved ya ;)

[David Chenault]

The idea of base-raincoat-puffy has a lot of appeal, but in execution I think it too often costs more in calories and mental energy than an additional layer or two.

[Dale Wambaugh]

Jerry wrote, "…..But, just doing the arithmetic, fleece or fabric have much lower warmth per weight.

Better to have base layer, insulation layer, jacket – and that's it."

I assume you mean rain shell when you say "jacket."

My layering scheme is aimed at three season hiking and camping at 2500-6000 feet in the Olympics and Western Cascades. I think there is more to it than arithmetic and practical/operational and personal needs factor in. I think many UL clothing lists don't include enough insulation for shoulder season and wet weather use.

I'm recommending both the mid layer/windshirt and 100g puffy for colder weather. All my layering schemes include a windshirt and rain shell or poncho and assume that there will be some precipitation during the trip.

[Diplomatic Mike]

"I went out for a couple nights.

Weather report said only a slight chance of a sprinkle so I left my tent behind."

That statement shows that you don't hike in a climate where you understand the value of fleece, Jerry.

[David Ure]

Oh yes, Eric. That was an uncomfortable night. But not life and death (or maybe it was….). It wasn't the down bags fault. Instead it was the dam bivy.

I guess we all make choices and at some point, we have to ask ourselves if we have completely over thought the process. You know – this idea that we will die out there. Down is still way lighter and last longer, warmer, and compressible and with some understanding of how to use it effectively, there are no real world benefits to synthetics for most backpacking ventures. Not to mention that after a couple of years of use, synthetics are generally flat and have degraded sufficiently to be much less warm when first used.

Synthetics retain very little warmth when wet although more than down. But ironically, synthetics take longer to dry out when soaked (see BPL study on the effects of wet insulation. Too lazy to look it up).

[Jerry Adams]

"That statement shows that you don't hike in a climate where you understand the value of fleece, Jerry."

No, that statement shows that even though I know better I screwed up : )

[Nick Brown]

Boy this thread has gotten exciting! Thanks all.

It's amazing how much disagreement there still is on this subject. I expected to get a few replies saying go synthetic idiot, which was my general understanding. It seems each scenario and environment may be unique leading to a lack of consensus. After all of the charts, BPL tests and input from members I still feel there is no right choice. Thanks again for all of your time. I'll be re-reading all of this many times for certain.

[James holden]

Synth dry out faster than down when damp … Hopefully you wont get truly soaked

Wasnt the bpl test done on thin light down jackets vs synth in a low humidity environmen?… I can tell you that my heavier down jackets take forever to dry if i hang em … Vs my 180g/m synth … We can even do a test once i get back from climbing

Tons of very experienced people on bpl use synth for various things … They are obviously clueless ;)

[Jerry Adams]

"Down is still way lighter" (than synthetic)

I hate that their is so little direct comparison data

My crude data says with synthetic you need 60% more weight for the same warmth.

I am debating whether to make my next sleeping bag out of down or synthetic.

I have a vest with 1.5 yd2 of 4 oz Apex = 6 ounces. 4 ounces of down would be the same warmth. So down would save 2 ounces. Doesn't really matter that much.

Sleeping bag is more like 4 yd2 – Apex = 16 ounce – down = 10 ounces – saving 6 ounces is a little more significant

[David Ure]

Here is the link to the article I was referring too. Guess I am not as lazy as I thought…

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/wet_weather_performance_down_vs_synth_vests.html

[James holden]

The most fundamental properties of down and synthetic insulation were reinforced by these results.

When dry, down garments provide much higher loft per weight than even the best synthetic-fill garments.
Synthetic insulation is far superior to down when both are fully saturated.
When saturated, Polarguard Delta maintains loft better than Primaloft One insulation.
All garments, both down and synthetic, will offer less warmth after absorbing significant moisture.
But a few other interesting insights were revealed.

The design of the Western Mountaineering Flash vest helps it to recover quickly after soaking. Even holding moderate moisture its warmth will be superior to a synthetic fill garment. The Flash may be a good choice if you can avoid completely saturating it in rain or if the rain may be interrupted by short drying opportunities.
Most other down-filled products will not recover from becoming wet as quickly as the Flash vest due to more down mass in relation to surface drying area.
Water absorbing trim slows the overall drying rate of a garment and will make the garment less comfortable to wear after significant moisture absorption.

and …

The Patagonia Micropuff Pullover vest is my choice on short trips where I use it as an outer layer, on warm weather trips where it serves as my primary insulation piece, and as emergency insulation on alpine climbs where violent thunderstorms are a possibility and my ability to protect myself from the elements is limited by terrain.

you are basically testing lightish down vest … like i said im willing to give my heavier weight jackets a good wash and see how long they take to dry … last time i did this the down took forever to dry … to make it truly authentic though we should wait for a period of famous BC no sun and all drizzle for a week so i can hang them under my porch =P

seems like the author still uses synth despite having the fastest drying down jacket in the west ;)

[David Ure]

Inconclusive? Indeed. But it does not confirm any real world benefits of synthetic insulation. Really. Just don't swim with your down jacket on and you should be okay…enjoying higher loft, more warmth, less weight, and a longer lasting product. I trek every year on Vancouver Island and it is very wet there. I always take down.

Of course, if waterproof down does what it claims, any synthetic will be completely, and utterly obsolete.

Hopefully they can be recycled.

[James holden]

anybody can screw up as you found out last year ;)

as to waterproof down .. one does have to remember that down aint getting any warmer, eventually synthetics will catch up … i dont know about you but i have a few holes through the shell of my synth right now, if it was down id be a mess of feathers

course i am the destroyer of gnarly gear … well actually an ember or two put the holes there =(

would you care to measure the drying times of a 20F rated down bag vs a synth one … as the author noted, more down that is less exposed may tell a different story …

i am still willing to test my heavier down and synth jackets … they need a good wash anyways

[David Ure]

"anybody can screw up as you found out last year ;)"

Once again, it was due to my bivy. The condensation was unbearable. Once I removed the bivy, the condensation on the bag began to evaporate. Anyhoo….

Serious though, why invest in coming up with synthetic unobtanium instead of just using the dry down that is available now with apparently (and subject to much scrutiny), none of the downsides to synthetic. There are many downsides to synthetic insulation and only one, arguable, benefit. Otherwise down is superior in every way.

[Nick Brown]

That would be great if you guys did a wash and dry test in humid conditions. I think everyone would benefit from beta like that.

If I go synthetic out of THESE options what would you choose?

100gm Primaloft 1 throughout, NO hood

or

133gm Primaloft Eco in body, 60gm PL Eco sleeves and hood

This would be with a MB EXLight under.

Seems to me the torso would be a wash and the PL1 throughout would be warmer in the sleeves. The lack of hood could be mitigated by my a hat and all the hoods on my hoody, windshirt and rain coat. Sounds as though a PL1 vest wouldn't cut it with only a MB Exl accompanying it.

Thanks!

[David Ure]

I find the benefits of a hood outweight the additional weight. The hood prevents heat loss around the neck. At least this has been my experience.

One experiences the greatest effect of heat loss through the torso so I would go with the jacket that has more insulation around the torso and less in the arms.

[James holden]

seriously … why worry about what other people are using … didnt skurka use a synth quilt, and mr jordan as well …

i really dont get why people on BPL are all crazed about what other people are using …

tons of very good people use synth especially in the alpine …

but then the intrawebs aint HYOH anyways ;)

[James holden]

hood … hands down … you should have a hood for yr primary puffy at 20F

[David Ure]

My point has always been that using your head is more important than the gear. Maybe we can fully agree with this. I have used the BMW Cocoon very successfully in the past with my ID PLQ pants and I am NOT Ryan Jordan.

"didnt skurka use a synth quilt, and mr jordan as well"

No to the first. Yes to the second but he is on extended vacation so don't expect a reply….; ) (I will ignore the fact that he 'used' what he sold through these forums so take that with a grain of salt)

[Lars Laird Iversen]

Sorry if this is a noob contribution, but isn't this just the kind of conditions where Paramo stuff has something to offer? Cold enough for the heavy material to usefully replace a midlayer, you get damp, but not wet due to the capilliary action, and it breathes beautifully…

[James holden]

Skurka used a mld spirit quilt on his great alaska trek … Ill post it up when im not on my iphone at the crag ;)

But ill just say that people can use whudda evah they want … Its not like what people use, many who do crazier things than me, affect me any which way

But then i must always be rightand argue to the death on the intrawebs

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