Anyone Practice Trail Communism?

[EndoftheTrail]

"stepping up to do one's share based on ability and care for one's brethren..Hey, buddy, let me take the extra waters today."

That is not just American, buddy. "From each according to his ability; to each according to his needs" was taught to generations of communist youths!

So what's the problem? The quickest way to turn any sweet gesture into an awful chore is to demand it. Now imagine having to repeat your 'sweet old school American way" every friggin' day — or face consequences. Would you still stick your neck out and let folks know the true maximum of your abilities? I don't think so.

[spelt with a t]

Or foot-in-mouth if my read on the OP's tone was wrong, but the premise here is ridiculous. Joy shared is doubled; misery shared is halved. Presumably the overarching aim of any group trip is the maximizing of enjoyment for all participants. Whether pack weight distribution is equalized should depend on the stated purpose of the trip, the abilities of inidividual members, and a hopefully shared definition of "enjoyment." That's not "communism;" it's "rational." If someone is letting their pride or interpersonal politics dictate their willingness to carry more or less weight, then that's a person I don't want to be hiking with.

[Erik Basil]

Spelt, I think you spalt it all out, nicely.

"Spaseeba"!

[Dena Kelley]

Spelt – Re your comment "Or foot-in-mouth if my read on the OP's tone was wrong, but the premise here is ridiculous. Joy shared is doubled; misery shared is halved. Presumably the overarching aim of any group trip is the maximizing of enjoyment for all participants. Whether pack weight distribution is equalized should depend on the stated purpose of the trip, the abilities of inidividual members, and a hopefully shared definition of "enjoyment." That's not "communism;" it's "rational." If someone is letting their pride or interpersonal politics dictate their willingness to carry more or less weight, then that's a person I don't want to be hiking with."

Most people assumed the definition of communism in the communal sense, not the political sense, based off the responses. I did. It doesn't change the fact that I believe in personal responsibility. I'll help someone if they are injured or ill, but I'm not going to carry their load for them if they exercised poor judgment on their packing. That would merely be enabling them to do it again next time. Better they learn not to do that again. To me, that's rational. Conversely, if I'm the one who overpacked, I don't expect anyone to carry my load. I'll learn from it, and do better next time. If that means there are people that wouldn't want to hike with me, I'm good with that, because it doesn't sound like we would have compatible personalities.

[Greg F]

I have no problems carrying some extra gear or food if others are struggling. But then my trips I go on are comnumal tent and stove and food sharing trips. On the last trip I went on this summer my buddys pack for a trip must have weighed 50lbs. He was struggling for the last half of the day. We didn't really realalize what was in there until he got to camp that night and pulled out is heavy sandles, 4 shirts, a few pairs of shorts, a pair of underwear for each day, etc, etc, Nothing in his pack was ridiculous he just had mulitples of everything. The previous day we had offered repeatedly if he wanted us to carry more weight. My pack was around 20 and my brothers 25 but he refused. I think ego was the main reason he didn't want us to carry his gear. So the next morning we stole his food and portion of the group gear taking around 10lbs out of his pack. He didn't realize it until lunch but wasn't too happy about it but it did improve his hiking pace.

On a group trip you want to keep the group moving and happy so you do whats best for the group. If that means I carry a little more food or gear to lighten the loads of everyone else thats fine.

To get my wife to come backpacking we agreed that all she has to carry is her food, water and clothes and I will sherpa the rest. So if my pack ends up at 30 and hers is less than 10 and we have an enjoyable trip that is all that matters.

[BlackHatGuy]

"On a group trip you want to keep the group moving and happy so you do whats best for the group. If that means I carry a little more food or gear to lighten the loads of everyone else thats fine."

Of course, setting realistic expectations ahead of time and ensuring no one in the group is carrying a significantly heavier load than the rest (unless they simply choose to) works too……

[Pete Acker]

I'm surprised this bunch or granola-eaters contains so many hiking capitalists! ;) No, I don't frequently carry others' gear (except my wife's), but with my UL elk hunting buddies, when we hunt together, it makes sense. We can be more effective as a group, and they understand not to overpack, and we share a strong common goal (meat!).

When my brother-in-law struggled up to camp with a 50-lb load of pots and pans, crazy creek chair, and 4 changes of clothes, I in no way felt obligated to share THAT load.

Also, I certainly don't mean to make this post political. Just wanted to make that clear – these references to communism are absolutely tongue in cheek. I know on the internet sometimes one just has to come out and say that.

Pete

[EndoftheTrail]

Pete:

I certainly didn't think you were espousing communism. I know it was 'tongue in cheek'. I am sure we all do. But some of us (me) can't help pitching in a couple of two-cents anyway. :)

[spelt with a t]

Dena–Most people assumed the definition of communism in the communal sense, not the political sense, based off the responses. I did. It doesn't change the fact that I believe in personal responsibility. I'll help someone if they are injured or ill, but I'm not going to carry their load for them if they exercised poor judgment on their packing. That would merely be enabling them to do it again next time. Better they learn not to do that again. To me, that's rational. Conversely, if I'm the one who overpacked, I don't expect anyone to carry my load. I'll learn from it, and do better next time. If that means there are people that wouldn't want to hike with me, I'm good with that, because it doesn't sound like we would have compatible personalities.

If we were hiking together and you overpacked and didn't want help, I certainly wouldn't push the issue. But if you said to me you exercised poor judgement and were struggling, or if I asked b/c you seemed to be having difficulty and you admitted your error, I would absolutely offer. If a person is miserable from too much weight I think they've learned the lesson. I don't see where it's teaching personal responsibility to let someone else's trip be significantly compromised or ruined from something that is easily remedied. The only exception would be if this person were a repeat offender, in which case I still offer, but afterward decline to hike with that person again and tell them why if they ask.

If I'm with a group it's for sharing the experience with others (if I don't want that, I just go by myself) and it's no fun if someone is miserable.

[spelt with a t]

Pete, I did suspect it was tongue-in-cheek, but it's a loaded word and can prime the responses a bit. :)

[Ryan Smith]

Some folks are cold blooded! If I'm hiking with my friends and someone has a heavy load for whatever reason, if I can help, I will. Who cares if it's their own fault, ignorance, or poor decision making. They're my friend. What kind of friend would I be if I couldn't do this small thing for them? Heck, even if it's a stranger I meet along the trail. Do unto others…yada yada.

Ryan

[Hikin’ Jim]

Interesting question.

If someone were deliberately slacking or taking inappropriately taking heavy gear, then I'd probably let them suffer, but if it's a friend and I know they are being self responsible, heck yes I'll take on some extra gear to help them out and get everyone's pace matched. I've also helped out noobs in the middle of nowhere who were in over their heads (with a Thunderstorm bearing down on them at 12,000'/3650m elevation)

With my wife, we have a simple division of labor: I carry everything. :) But my wife is 98# (45kg) and 4' 11" (150cm) whereas I'm 220# (100kg) and 6'0" (183cm), and I hike somewhat regularly whereas my wife does not.

Some good friends of mine have stopped hiking with me because I've gotten so slow. Sigh. No "trail communism" there.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

Since you feel so strongly you have an open invite to carry my 30+ lb 2 year old on your back (him and his pack are around 45 lbs) and my 20 lb 6 month old on your front at the same time. Please, don't hesitate!

What? No takers? And yes, I have carried them both on my 5 foot 4 inch body. I don't expect anyone to carry them but me or my husband. It isn't being cold blooded, it is sheer reality. I chose to have large Scottish-descent children with a man a foot taller than me, rather than sire a couple of small, waif-like children with a tiny man. So …. to me it is like that – if you like heavy gear, carry it. Don't expect others to haul it. ;-)

Footnotes:
Expect for in the case of handmade fudge and other items. I am happy to make it, someone else is carrying that 2 lb brick for me ;-) For some reason I have no issues finding takers to do just that. Although wether or not there will be any left in camp is never known.
I nearly strangled Hoosierdaddy in 2009 when we got to camp and I found out why my pack felt heavier than I thought. In my quest to pee before we started he took the time to shove a freaking 6 pack of beer in my pack that I then carried the whole way. He thought it was hil-a-rious. I hate beer and was pregnant. Lol……..

[Kattt]

"I chose to have large Scottish-descent children with a man a foot taller than me, rather than sire a couple of small, waif-like children with a tiny man."

Wow.

[Ryan Smith]

Hi Sarah,

Of course, you shouldn't *expect* anyone else to carry your load. That's not really my point. Sometimes people make mistakes or misjudge their capabilities. That doesn't make them stupid, that makes them human. It's gonna happen and "teaching them a lesson" doesn't somehow make me a better person. To me, carrying 5 lbs for someone is not a big deal. Opinions vary obviously.

So to answer your question – Yeah, if you're having a hard time, pass the kiddos. I'm one of those Scottish-descent kids all grown up at 6'4" 220lbs. That's my 5'5" wife in my avatar who was lucky enough to sire our two healthy 9lbs kids. She's a trooper.

Ryan

[Sarah Kirkconnell]

I think it is better to help the person at the trailhead to lower their pack weight…or help them pick better gear. I have a friend whose girlfriend doesn't have gear. She was using one of his packs for dayhiking. Hearing that I realized I had a brand new Osprey day pack I had won last year. Tags on, never used. It fit her perfectly. Better than her having his lumpy old pack on her back :-)

And to anyone off-en-ded by my statement above? Pfffttttt…I know plenty of ladies who picked husbands similar in height to them so they wouldn't have big kids :-P One of my hiking partners is ever so proud of her dainty little girl. And never lets it pass that her baby is so light to carry (remind anyone of UL Froot-Loops bragging about how small their pack is??)

My mission in life apparently is to offend people. Or something.

[BlackHatGuy]

"I chose to have large Scottish-descent children with a man a foot taller than me, rather than sire a couple of small, waif-like children with a tiny man."

That must have been one heck of a Match.com add – Wanted, large man to sire large children. Scottish descent a plus. Must like backpacking. UL on your back is fine, UL anywhere else on you is not…. ;-)

"My mission in life apparently is to offend people."

I wish I knew what my mission in life was. And that I was so well suited to it…… ;-)

[Dena Kelley]

"I think it is better to help the person at the trailhead to lower their pack weight…or help them pick better gear."

I 100% agree with this. If I was going out with a group and saw one person grossly over-packed we would have that discussion in the parking lot before we hit the trail. That's a much better time to address that issue than to later add a bunch of weight to your own pack, if it will even fit. My pack is just large enough to accept my load out- I don't have any extra space.

[Erik Basil]

:) When someone plans to benefit from group gear and claims they just don't have enough space in their pack… that's when bust out my collection of straps, bungies and string. It's cool, you don't HAVE to fit it. We'll just tie it on there for you. Complaining? Ah, turns out we do need the Coleman 2-burner…

Enjoi'!

OF COURSE, it's better to adjust loads and ditch surplusage before departing the trailhead. And, while at that trailhead or the shakedown meeting, and once it's established that absolutely nobody is carrying more underwear or layers than the PC crowd have determined is correct, and the crowd has overcome the blame game for those who didn't buy the Western Mountaineering sleeping bag that weighs only 15 ounces in the midget size, and the discussion over whether that 9-inch Rambo knife is really gonna be of use has been completed, and someone's come into acceptance that "some people" might have sleeping pads weighing more than 114 grams, then there may come a time where allocation of group gear might properly involve some allocations and acceptances beyond "divide the weight by the number of people".

At least it does among those I'm willing to backpack with. No PrimaCommieDonnas need apply.

[Ike Jutkowitz]

I always divide up all essential gear among members of my party.

'course I always hike alone.

[Gary Dunckel]

This guy wins the prize for helping carry extra gear (for his girlfriend with a new heel blister).

On another note, at Morningstar Lake in GNP a few weeks ago, there were 3 parties, myself (solo), 2 guys, and three ladies in the 3 tent sites (plus 3 huge male moose that bedded down nearby after dark). Everybody was rocking a Tarptent, something I'd never seen before. The others did carry a few things that were a bit heavy, but not their tents.

My Contrail, sagging in the morning from heavy condensation, due to proximity to the lake and zero breeze:

The two dudes and their Double Rainbow:

The shy ladies hiding inside their Hogback:

The youngest moose, paying me a visit in the afternoon:

[Franco Darioli]

Gary
Please add (and or use) the apex guyline to your Contrail.
Pretty please…
Franco

[Gary Dunckel]

Busted from down under! Dang it, Franco, I figured you'd be asleep when I posted that. So another guy line, another stake? You trying to set me up with gram-creep, or what? But since you said "pretty please," I'll do it next time.

[Kevin Babione]

It probably helps that I "taught" my backpacking buddies how to backpack and they've come to understand that extra grams become extra ounces which, in turn, become extra pounds.

Before each trip I initiate a lot of communication with everyone – telling them specifically what I will be providing them (with weights) as well as making them tell me exactly what they're planning on bringing.

If someone brings something that was not "pre-approved" it's not a problem, but they know they're expected to carry it. For example, I have a group first aid kit (and probably the most training in how to use it). If someone wants to bring their own first aid kit that's fine, but they'll carry it.

One of the things that keeps my buddies "in line" is that they know that we'll have a start of trip weigh-in where each pack, just before we hit the trail (so that it has all water and food in it) will be weighed and the weights recorded. It helps that we never have anyone with a pack that starts much above 20 pounds.

[Alpo Kuusisto]

Anecdote tells of a not so young doctor who was concerned the employees in his hospital didn't get enough workout during the day to stay healthy.
As he spotted young nurses approaching elevators on the ground floor, he rushed to open the door for them as a gentleman. He then noted the button they pressed, and ran stairs to the corresponding floor, to open the door as a gentleman for the astonished ladies.

Gentleman's behavior, with a touch of humour perhaps, might be a good way of making the point of a lightweight pack. Has lightening the pack lost it's original idea and become a goal in itself, when a backpacker is not willing to share the load of a friend?

[Author]

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