Bacpacker Magazine award to Big Sky

[Scott Peterson]

I appreciate Brian's view on this. He is a craftsman and I enjoy his product a great deal.

I appreciate PJ's diplomatic/comedic point of view as well.

I appreciate guys like Shawn who fight the good fight too. I have been present for a knowledgable sales person's pitch at REI to a single mother and her son's need to get something for Scouting use. In that light I suppose there are still a good deal of people who either do not have time or the inclination to get on the internet (the great equalizer of all info.)! I suppose too it is where you shop. While in Berkley or some of the Bay Area environs, more consumers seem to be savvy about what they want. I also wonder if you do not know what you don't know, can you really decide a piece of equipment is functioning up to snuff after using it? My guess is, the 13 year old whose mother bought him a pack or tent on a BPM recco., would be none the wiser if it was trash or not.

I still forgive BPM even if they chanced it on the review. They clearly had nothing to gain and only something to lose. I sense they are understaffed in a relatively underpaid part of the publishing world. I reveiwed a GPS phone for them at one point and could tell the writers were also admin's and shipping clerks…and well, you get the idea. I imagine that is why "Jonathan Dorn", a relatively basic writer with seemingly average skills seems to increase his presence within the pages month after month, based primarily I'm sure on his rank rather than qualifications.

I just like to think this community avoids bashing REI, or Backpacker, or what we now percieve as "basic" just because we might be more advanced…and it gets me a little riled.

[Ken Bennett]

deleted

[kristin hostetter]

Dear Mitchell,

You beat me to the punch. After reading through this thread, I was going to upload my response to you …thanks for taking care of it for me!

You asked how we will be able to stay on top of BS's track record. Pretty easily, I think, by continuing to monitor this thread and others like it to gauge customer satisfaction. Just keeping our eyes and ears open. Isn't that how you gauge customer DIS-satisfaction? I'm always grateful when I get letters, like yours, that share information like that.

By the way, I can't resist responding to some of the comments about Backpacker editorial being ad driven: That is simply not true. In fact, Big Sky has never advertised with us at all. Neither have a number of other Editors' Choice Awards winners from this year: Harmony House Foods, Celestron, or SheildZone. (I had to go back and look through the mags, because who advertises and who doesn't is not something I pay attention to.)

Our gear testing and editorial is driven by one thing only: to find the best stuff out there, regardless of how small or unknown a company might be. Obviously, many of the people on this forum have lots of experience, and they certainly like sharing their opinions. In that, at least, you folks are a lot like us at Backpacker.

Cheers,
Kristin Hostetter
Gear Editor
Backpacker

[EndoftheTrail]

Hi Kristin:

Thank you for sharing your "insider perspective" with us. This is very helpful.

We are not (or at least I am not) purposely picking on BS at all. The reason for our continued posting, however, is simply because BS is practically alone in the way it habitually strings buyers along — after collecting the money upfront. Just recently, a poster (Brad Russell) wrote on this forum that he got his tent on 2/27/07 — even though he paid up over a year ago (12/27/05)! BS' website, however, mentions absolutely nothing about delays — but only a vague "deadline" of 4-6 weeks delivery time — or the recently changed but equally vague "late Spring".

I believe that Backpacker will monitor this company. But I feel that a company that has jerked its customers so much worse than any other company around — should not have made it to your magazine at all! Too late now, of course, but hopefully, this will serve as future reference…

[Gene .]

Kristen, Let's see Backpacker magazine do a couple of exposes' on the likes of Ron Moak, Henry Shires, ULA packs; these folks make gear, and deliver above and beyond in the areas of quality gear and customer service without any hype!With some level of care all of this gear is as 'bomber' as anything on the market, 'user error' isn't 'product failure' IMO.

The other thing is that the majority of Backpacker's reader's are'nt undertaking 'epic' journeys'; rather, most are just going out every few months for a week or less IME. Any of the manufacturers mentioned above sell suitable gear for such endeavors.

[Anonymous]

So Kristen, is BPM going to print an addendum in a coming issue warning subscribers of the widespread difficulty customers have had with delivery of BS tents? It was mentioned in several replies above that some people make purchasing decisions on BPM reviews, particularly with products that have received your award. You can bet BS will be using this award to take orders on tents. Posters to this forum have said that he charges their credit card upon the order and does not wait until shipping. Now that you have this knowledge don’t you think it would be the responsible course for your magazine to let subscribers and readers know they run the risk of not receiving expected delivery until over a year after they have paid for the order? I wonder if BPM has any liability on the basis of “failure to inform” subscribers of it’s knowledge of this risk while letting the record stand that BS is the recipient of your "Editor's Choice Award?"

[Shawn Basil]

To Ms. Hostetter,

Thanks for the response. Another forum where you can see more discussion on Big Sky's issues is posted on The Lightweight Backpacker at Backpacking.net. The administrator sold Big Sky advertising space last Winter for a year and couldn't legally delete the link. However, as the complaints about Big Sky's service piled over the 150 post mark, Packlite (the admin) placed a very visible link to the concerned thread underneath Big Sky's advertising link so that forum members would be informed to the "buyer beware" nature of Big Sky's business practices. So there are clearly multiple backpacking forums where you can gain an insight over the next few months as to how well Big Sky is keeping up their promises.

To Scott,

I appreciate your candor and point of view. Normally, I'm the one saying "Let's all take a minute to calm down." so I understand where you're coming from . Yes, I too read Backpacker for the trip reports, commentary, and memories and feelings it sometimes evokes. I'll always dabble through the pages and find something I like. But since I noticed you're not a BPL member, I would make a suggestion. If you don't want to subscribe to the online magazine, consider the quarterly print magazine. It tends to be different in focus from the online magazine. It is not so technical, but offers wonderful trips reports and photos, commentaries and philosophy of backpacking in general, and great photos and artwork, with an occasional gear review. It makes me feel like a teenager reading Backpacker Magazine for the first time again.

If I came off as bashing Backpacker, that wasn't my intent. I was more concerned about the general public getting the word about Big Sky. I certainly wouldn't bash REI. I work there!;-) And please don't get flustered and avoid the forums. I had a bad experience here early on and avoided the forums for nearly a year. And I feel like I really missed out. Thanks for sharing Scott.

[Mitchell Keil]

Dear Kristen:
Thanks for responding in this forum to both my concerns and the concerns expressed by the many knowledgeable posters on this thread.

You state the following:
"Our gear testing and editorial is driven by one thing only: to find the best stuff out there, regardless of how small or unknown a company might be."

"Best" implies many things but I would consider the customer service of a company to be amoung the top criteria to be considered "The Best" in any evaluation process. Nordstrums comes to mind As an example. Promises of service, good thoughts and a new and improved policy really don't count in the real world. Mollen may have promised that his company has turned the corner on the many problems he has been plagued with in delivering on his product, but BPM should not offer him your top Gear Award based on a promise. Yes, I am sure you tested a tent delivered in a timely fashion to your offices for testing, but I am wondering how you would have responded as a customer if you had to wait 14 months for delivery of your tent while he had the use of your money for the entire 14 months? I can't quite believe that you would have given him an award of any kind.

Please understand, BPM's recommendations carry enormous weight with the casual Backpacking crowd. Your imprimatur and a very bad experience with a recommendation do not spell good things for the many cottage manufacturers looking to attract customers over the internet.

Do our community a favor and revisit your review in a month or two. Also do us all a further favor and only review products that are really available to purchase or state that they are not yet available: e.g. The Guyot Design Squishy Bowls.

[Denis Hazlewood]

Dear Kristen,

After giving Bob Molen my credit card data I waited 373 days for my tent. After 365 days I emailed Bob that I was going to cancel my order and requested a refund. He sent my tent within one week. Until then I had gotten many promises but no satisfaction. What if we dissatisfied customers wrote letters to the editor of your magazine regarding our personal experiences with Big Sky? Do they publish letters?

[Doug Latimer]

I ordered the Evolution 2P2D2V tent with granite fly 3/31/06. As I have other tents and could afford to wait, I did. I received the tent last Wednesday and I have to admit I’m very happy with it. I can't wait to test it out in various conditions.

[Russell Swanson]

Denis,

Like most magazines, Backpacker does publish letters to the editor, possibly edited and/or condensed.

I seem to recall Backpacker featuring Big Sky's Evolution tent in a previous magazine…possibly last year's gear issue. Perhaps someone will correct me if I'm mistaken. If I am remembering correctly, I find myself questioning the decision to give them the award this year, after the all the difficulties Big Sky had in 2006. They would have had to have some idea of the severe delivery delay issues as Big Sky was already on thier radar.

As a reader of Backpacker for years, I do agree with previous posters' comments about novices giving the magazine's recommendations favorable consideration. I've bought gear I saw featured there. I quickly came to accept that "Editor's Choice" for backpacker didn't equate to "Best Option" in any way. But this is my take. As we all know, many experienced backpackers do not consider lighter weight to be better.

I do think the suggestion to have a feature on cottage industry manufacturers would be a great idea. I'd even expand it to a series of articles. Who wouldn't love to see Backpacker visit some of these shops and give us an expose on how they design and produce their products? It certainly would beat another article on how to survive lightning stirkes.

[Dennis Thompson]

Ok, so what are the issues with Big Sky? I am looking at getting a new tent and am considering the double wall 2 person at 3.5 lbs.

Are there quality issues as well as delivery and or customer service?

Dennis T- Calif

[Russell Swanson]

"Ok, so what are the issues with Big Sky? I am looking at getting a new tent and am considering the double wall 2 person at 3.5 lbs.

Are there quality issues as well as delivery and or customer service?

Dennis T- Calif"

Everything I've read about the quality and performance of the Evolution tents has been very positive. I don't own one myself. But I think one can safely say that the sample size of Big Sky tents being used on a consistant basis is relatively small so it might not be possible to get a good read on this. Additionally, if Big Sky is indeed switching manufacturing facilities, this might have a quality effect as well.

Maybe of bigger concern is that if you do have an issue, counting on Big Sky to follow up might be problematic in and of itself.

[Shawn Basil]

Currently the biggest issue is that most customers have had to wait for about a year to get one. This isn't an exaggeration at all. Dozens of posters on multiple forums have experienced this.

As for service once you get your tent, there is none. There are no facilities for repairs that any one can point to, and there is certainly no long-term warranty.

That being said, the folks who HAVE gotten them have had universally positive first impressions (at least from the handful I've seen posts from). So far it doesn't seem like there are enough folks with long-term field experience with this tent to know about durability, though with normal reasonable UL-style care, I don't get the feeling there are any immediate concerns.

[Denis Hazlewood]

Big Sky Evolution 2P 2D2V rel.E Tent: As far as the quality of the tent is concerned, mine is first rate. The finish is very good, the seam work is well done, the panels set up taut, and the fly fits perfectly. I used the tent two nights in the rain and it didn't leak a drop. The humidity was probably 100%, with heavy fog and rain. There was very little, if any wind. The vents in the fly worked very well and there was very little condensation on the under side of the fly. In the morning, before climbing out of my bag, I shook the tent vigourously and no water droplets appeared on the tent body netting. The only thing I'll be modifying is the fly tie-outs that come standard. I'll be redoing them so they are adjustable without resetting the stakes. As with all Silnylon the fly sags when damp and, after a rainy night, the fly was touching the tent body in a few places. I got one of Bob's Silnylon footprints and they are just too delicate and easily punctured or scuffed. I want something tougher protecting the tent floor. I've cut a piece of Tyvek and will try that. If it doesn't work to my satisfaction I'll use some PU coated nylon and add light weight nylon tape with grommets. At the cost of these tents, the long wait for delivery, and the probable lack of any aftermarket repair by Big Sky, I want to protect my investment.

It may be that Bob Molen is getting his act together but the only way to find out is to purchase a tent. If you get the tent instead of months and months of excuses (or complete silence) you will probably like the tent. It took me 53 weeks to get my tent and there is a post here that took 14 months.

Good luck

Evolution 2P at Sky Camp, Point Reyes National Seashore, California February 23, 2007

[Robert Molen]

Kristin et al,

I really apologize for the heat Backpacker magazine and all of you at Backpacker are taking because of Big Sky’s delayed deliveries…

Yes, we have had long delays from order date until shipment… we are working very hard to correct that… I have been practically living in Asia since early fall 2006 fixing this problem… in fact, I am Asia right now pushing our factory to get orders out and working with another factory getting them up to speed so Big Sky has dual factory sources to avoid this problem in the future… it is a long and costly process bringing another factory online… we have a world-class product and we will not accept anything less than world-class quality…

We shipped some Evolution 2Ps last month, and will ship some more this month… not as many as we would like, but better to ship some than none… we expect to have a good supply of our best seller, Big Sky’s Evolution 2P, by at least May/June (hopefully sooner) from two different factories… but I am not prepared to declare victory until all of Big Sky orders are filled and we have world-class products “in-stock” to sell…

As a side note, some on BackpackingLight’s forum incorrectly state that Big Sky bills a customer’s credit card when the order is taken… we stopped that practice in May 2006… our current practice is to bill a customer’s credit card when an order ships… when we first started, we used PayPal, which does not allow delayed billing… all but a very few of those PayPal orders have been shipped or refunded… also, this past December we did offer an “End-of-Year Sale – 20% discount for Spring Shipping – pay 100% Jan 1”… we expect to deliver these orders on time, but if the customer wants a refund, we will provide one…

While many of the customers that placed orders with Big Sky waited a long time, we also rewarded them for their patience by upgrading them to the current version for free… some paying less than $200 for a shelter that sells for over $300 when it was shipped to them…

Also, some customers that pre-paid for their order were given loaners at no charge to use while they were waiting for their order and/or discounts on other merchandise… we have tried to do what we can to make it right with our customers that have had their orders delayed…

Again, we apologize,
Bob Molen

Big Sky International
http://www.BigSkyInternational.com
online store: http://www.BigSkyProducts.com
[email protected]

[EndoftheTrail]

Robert:

Can you please explain what caused upwards of 14-month delays in making tents and your very long periods of silence during all this time? Many of your buyers were at their wits end — as attested by the numerous postings here and in all other forums, which you no doubt have read, although not responded to!

As I expected, you responded extremely quickly with an apology to Kristin of Backpacker Magazine. This actually puts you in a rather bad light — given that you have NOT responded to any of our postings on this forum or on any of the other backpacking forums in the last six months or more! (Kristin can easily verify this by just looking for Bob's postings — of which she will find none in the last six months — the period when numerous buyers were fretting — and posting — all to no avail).

Robert, I should not have to remind you that your buyers — not Backpacker Magazine — are your true customers! Indeed, most of us here are also customers/readers of said magazine. You can hardly expect to score with the magazine while treating your customers as shabbily and evasively as you have. While apologizing to Kristin above for the heat you caused, you couldn't even be bothered to apologize even a little to your customers???

[Robert Ebel]

What I find surprising is that people are surprised that the cons at Backpacker did this. It's always been about the money and big egos – just like everywhere else!

You watch, Big Sky will go on to rule the world. I can see it now, and all of you will buy their crap.

[Denis Hazlewood]

Bob,

Your loaner tent and 20% discounts to me notwithstanding:

It's been obvious for some time that you moniter this site fairly closely. I imagine you know even more sites that post complaints about Big Sky.

Some time ago, on this site, I suggested that you insert a "News" section on your website where you do a running post on the difficulties you encounter in trying to get your very fine product to market. A paragraph or so every couple of days or certainly once a week, telling the truth about your problems. As I see it the biggest complaint is your seemingly automatic and very generic "I'm at our factory in Asia" emails.

When I don't meet deadlines my clients really don't like to hear my excuses. But I always tell it like it is. They know they can trust my word.

Perhaps honest communication is a way to get people on your side in this "fight" to get your business off the ground. I certainly hope that Big Sky suceeds. Someday I'd like to get one of your Revolution 1P 1D0V bivy tents. The orange one you had at last year's ADZPCTKO was sharp.

[Lawton G]

well, i don't have one of these tents, but the latest round of excuses and "apologies" is just so ridiculous.

what's wrong with being honest about availability of your product? isn't that the easiest thing you can do? if situations change, update your customers. rapid response to squeaky wheels and big magazines, and ignoring calls for refunds and plaintive emails for 6 months from customers just wanting a product, isn't not honest or fair.

glad i have a tarptent contrail from an honest and fair businessman, not episode 18 in a littany of excuses and silence.

p.s. i imagine it's not lost of most people that the acronym for the company is "BS"

[Franco Darioli]

The Tarptent Rainbow was my first purchase on line. I am not a Luddite, I was involved in setting up the first site in Australia to sell cameras directly on the Net. I am still working there. After that positive experience I purchased from ULA, twice, Jacks R Better, White Box stoves,and BackpackingLight , also with a friend again from Tarptent,Backpackinglight,Mini Bull stoves, Gossamer Gear (twice) and ULA. ALL of the above proved to be very positive experiences, with Henry,Brian and the two Jacks it was a very personal and very satisfying event.
Now if I had sent my money to Big Sky ( not so coincidentally referred to as BS) very likely it would have been an end to my overseas buying. We have here, in Melbourne, some very good shops and excellent brands also.
I have chastised others for commenting on products that they have not seen or tried,and I fit into this slot regarding BS, however the product is not in question, the service is the crux of the matter.
What BS as shipped out so far are samples, there is no evidence of a production line being in place. Nothing wrong with that if the aim was to test market a product, but to pretend that orders could be fulfilled on demand it was naive at best, fraud at worst.
Ben has correctly pointed out that there has been no satisfying or concrete answer from Bob till Backpacker became involved.
There is not that much that is relevant to me in Backpacker ( I love your parks but I am over here…), , but I still buy it because I like to read something before I go to sleep and I am a gear freak ( loved the safety issue and as usual the annual gear roundup). If I did not know better, I would have assumed that a product featured in there not as "in development" or "vapor hardware" should be available and regardless of what the editors think, you ( Backpacker Magazine ) are giving credibility to a load of BS.
Franco
Not to sure if I got my point across, please ask for a clarification if needed.
,

[Denis Hazlewood]

Bob's doing it again. He's still not communicating. Let's hear from you Bob. What have you got to say for yourself. Your public awaits "The Word". Give us the straight p*o*o*p*. What's the real deal with Big Sky. Why do you have so much trouble meeting demand for your superior products? What sort of production problems have you experienced? Are you a one man show, doing everything yourself? What is your orders to deliveries ratio? What is your average delivery time? What are your plans to improve the situation? Talk to us. We implore you.

[Gene .]

Robert Ebel, in reference to your post above; you won't catch me buying a 'DeLoren tent' either! LOL

I edited this post after reading your post Eric; you are correct, this thread needs to stay focused, point taken.

[Eric Noble]

Gene, don't take it too hard. BPLRank seems to be all about membership and the amount of participation, not about quality. We've beaten this to death in one of the members only forums. I wish it were made more clear what the BPLRank is. I think we all know the quality of your posts. For example, your travel advice for Hawaii was awesome! I don't want this thread to veer into another discussion of BPLRank but didn't want to miss an opportunity to ask that it be clarified. The thread needs to stay on BPM and Mr. Molen so they have an opportunity to answer to their customers.

[Donna C]

I just don't understand how a factory in China…now 2 factories in China…can't produce more than a handful of tents. Seems odd to me. Please don't say switching to another factory was the reason. I don't care how good that durn tent is…at 3.5 lbs, get a Hubba Hubba. At least if it tears, or falls apart, MSR will stand by it. Will BS stand by theirs?

[Author]

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