Jun 14, 2012 at 9:43 pm #1291048
Finally the long wait is over and we received our new Cuben Haven today. So what was the first thing my wife and I did after work? Yes, you guessed correct, we set up the new tent and skipped dinner. The tent is amazingly light for a two person tent.
The set-up was straight forward and easy. This photo is of the very first pitch with no corrections for better tautness.
It has plenty of space for our two full-size NeoAirs. My wife loves that it has two doors and we can each get out on our own side. The doors can be rolled up and are held by a snap. I'm a little skeptical of the snap button and wonder how it will work in the long run.
We then set up the Haven NetTent under the CubenHaven. It was again very easy and there is lots of head room to sit and change.
It will take a while before I can report about condensation and and other things. We will take the CubenHaven this summer on the JMT. That should give us enough experience with this tent. As of now we are very happy – no more two trekking poles between us – no more climbing over each other during the night to get to the front door – and saving quite some weight along the way. What more can you ask for? Yes, dinner …Jun 14, 2012 at 10:07 pm #1887100
Very cool….thanks for posting.Jun 14, 2012 at 10:15 pm #1887104
Thanks for sharing.Jun 14, 2012 at 10:17 pm #1887105
@traumaheadLocale: Cen Cal
What shelter were you using prior?Jun 14, 2012 at 10:31 pm #1887108
It has surprisingly steep angles for being such a larger shelter.
Enjoy that shelter!!Jun 15, 2012 at 8:08 am #1887200
Our other tarptent is a Black Diamond BetaLight. It weighs 19 oz and uses a design similar to the Shangri-La 2 and others, with a front door and 2 poles in the middle of the tent between the two people.
The Cuben Haven cuts the weight bascially in half, gives us two doors, way more room and has the two poles out of the way.
We also have a Big Agnes FlyCreek UL2.
ManfredJun 15, 2012 at 8:58 am #1887215
@clbowdenLocale: Berkeley Hills
9.9 oz for the cuben fly
how much does the inner weigh?Jun 15, 2012 at 10:21 am #1887228
The spec for the Cuben Haven states 10 oz and it weighs 9.85 oz on my scale. The spec for the Haven NetTent states 14 oz and it weighs 16.15 oz on my scale. I contacted Ron at SMD yesterday via email to find out what to do about my NetTent that is slightly more than 15% over spec weight.
I hope it will be resolved and I will end up with a 1.5 lbs double walled tent.
ManfredJun 15, 2012 at 10:42 am #1887240
I doubt much could be done to change the weight of the inner NetTent. SMD could amend the published weight spec to reflect the reality.Jun 15, 2012 at 11:37 am #1887255
We may be just seeing some manufacturing variability.
Manfred, let us know what Ron says.
My Cuben Haven arrived yesterday. It weighs 10.1 oz on my scale
and my Haven NetTent weighs 13.9 oz on my scale.
So both are pretty close to the spec weight and together 24 oz.
Can't wait to try it out this weekend.
AlJun 16, 2012 at 8:32 am #1887493
Here is a picture showing details of how the tie outs and
net tent attach.
Here is a front view that helps give a sense of just how much
width you have under this 10 oz Haven tarp.Jun 18, 2012 at 9:43 am #1887949
you were right. There is some manufacturing variability.
Below you can see the reply I received today from SMD.
I must say I'm disappointed. I paid $550 for a tent ($400 for outer + $150 for inner) mainly for its "published" weight.
I'm not sure how to interpret "Weight of our gear is not specified as fixed value" – after all the SMD website states clearly "14 oz" everywhere the Haven NetTent is shown.
I understand that there is some manufacturing variability. I looked on the forum and found two people who recently purchased a Haven NetTent and published its weight. George's Haven NetTent weighs 13.9 oz. Mina's Haven NetTent weighs 14.1 oz (in its bag with strings attached). Mine weighs 16.75 oz in its bag with strings and 16.15 oz without bag and without strings.
So what do you expect in regard to published weights when you buy ultralight gear and spend huge amounts of money to lighten your load? What kind of manufacturing variability do you find acceptable? Do you hold cottage manufacturers to different standards than big manufacturers?
P.S.: I still like my Cuben Haven with its NetTent and think it is a great tent.
We'll be glad to fix the clip on the Haven NetTent that was sewn incorrectly.
Exchanging a tent because it is not the same as the published weight is a
different matter. Weight of our gear is not specified as fixed value.
Weights will fluctuate depending upon the materials used. The application
of various coatings used in the production of materials is not an exact
science and will vary from run to run.
While we also purchase materials in large quantities, it often the case
where a production run of a particular product may utilize materials that
were ordered at different times and even from different suppliers. This
can result with differences in weight in products.
Because we're ultralight We try to be as accurate with our weights as
possible. But, even we are at the mercy of a complex supply chain.
We appreciate your understanding.
Six Moon Designs
Innovative Ultralight Adventure Gear
503.430.2303Jun 18, 2012 at 11:03 am #1887978
That is more like 20% overweight and to me its not acceptable 10% maybe but not 20% I think that they should spec a range or the high weight of a product. You paid alot for that cuban setup you paid for light weight.Jun 18, 2012 at 11:04 am #1887979
I just got another reply from Ron that sheds some more light on this. So it seems this is not a case of manufacturing variability, but a case of changed materials. You were "lucky" to get your NetTent from the old batch with weights of 14 oz. Mine weighs over 15% more, but hopefully will be "more robust and less subject to fraying and running". Now SMD just need to update their website to make sure other customers are not as surprised & disappointed as I was.
A while back, we made a change in the mesh being used. We were using two
kinds of mesh but as they were similar, it was causing confusion in the
production. To stabilize production and ensure consistency, we opted for a
single mesh. The new mesh is slightly heavier but is more robust and less
subject to fraying and running.
If we ever find a suitable lighter weight mesh that has the
characteristics that we want, we may adopt it. We didn't update the
website because the decision to make the change was done months before the
production of the Haven NetTents and by the time we received the
production run, we'd simply forgotten.
The website will be updated to reflect the changes. However, due to the
number of changes that are required in all of our product literature, both
printed and online. It's not likely to happen until we do our next round
of updates for the 2013 season.
We apologize for any inconvenience but at the moment we simply don't have
any of the older stock available.
Six Moon Designs
Innovative Ultralight Adventure Gear
503.430.2303Jun 18, 2012 at 12:17 pm #1888000
Darn, I just ordered a cuban haven with net tent last night, and was expecting based on the SMD website that the net tent would be about 14 oz instead of 16+! I will just to wait and see, I guess …Jun 18, 2012 at 12:39 pm #1888008
Please let us know how much your NetTent weighs when you receive it. I tried to exchange mine, but was told that none of the "old" batch are left. So I'm interested to see how much yours weighs. It is disappointing that the website doesn't reflect the change in weight.
ManfredJun 18, 2012 at 1:22 pm #1888030
I am quite dissapointed that SMD know the new net tents weigh 2oz more than the advertised weight, but yet arent going to change the website right now because it is "too difficult".
That is BS, and that is poor business practice, as well as fraudulent. Changing printed hang tags, maybe. But definitely not the website. A disclaimer should immediately be posted on the website. They are a UL mfg, with a UL customer base. IF they arent aware how important that weight accuracy is, they shouldnt be in the business anymore.Jun 18, 2012 at 2:42 pm #1888054
@ewh100Locale: SF Bay Area
Ron and team have been producing gear for many years now and this is the first time I've ever heard of a problem with their weight specs. His message indicates that they simply forgot to update their website and I can buy that. They've been extremely busy this year. I know it sucks when items come in heavier than expected and understand everyones disappointment. I just don't think we need to bring out the torches just yet. If you are totally dissatisfied you should be able to return it.
Personally I have purchased the Lunar Solo, Lunar Duo, Wild Oasis shelters and the Starlite and Traveler backpacks from SMD. All of them have come in close to advertised for weight and I've been very happy with all my purchases. There's a good chance I'll be adding the Cuben Haven to my collection as well.Jun 18, 2012 at 3:43 pm #1888070
More praise for SMD and their products…
I have a Lunar Duo, a Gatewood Cape, a Starlight and a Swift and have encouraged three of my friends to buy Lunar Solos.
I had a problem with the strap on my Starlight (after using it for a year) and SMD repaired it for free – no questions asked. They've always been very responsive to emails.Jun 19, 2012 at 11:04 am #1888297
I had an email exchange with SMD and it sounds like I will be getting the heavier newer netting material. I'll post an update with my measured weight when I receive it. Based on the input from all the others about the quality of the SMD (this is my first SMD purchase) I am willing to try it out even though it is heavier than indicated on the website.
We recently switched the netting on all of our NetTents to a netting
that is stronger and less prone to tearing and snagging on velcro. The
netting only weights a little bit more per yard but with a large NetTent
like the Haven a little weight increase can add up to a couple ounces.
The NetTent that you will receive will be the slightly heavier one.
Please let us know now if you are interested in canceling part of your
Brandon Moak"Jun 19, 2012 at 11:19 am #1888302
no one is bringing out the torches. I too own severeal pieces of SMD gear and have been very happy with those products. I'm also very happy with the Cuben Haven.
My question was what weight variation is acceptable based on Ron's first reply "Weight of our gear is not specified as fixed value. Weights will fluctuate depending upon the materials used."
Many of us publish their gear lists in grams. Many vendors publish their gear also in grams (for example "Hexamid Twin Tent w/ Screen – 11.2 oz (318 grams)"). Thus I believe there is a justified expectation towards UL gear manufacturers to stay within a couple of grams of the published weight. My Haven Net Tent is by over 60 grams off. That is over 15% more than the published weight.
So my question to the wider community — independent of vendor — is how much variability do you find acceptable. 1%, 2%, 5% or even 10%? Or do you even accept 15% and 20% variability? What is reasonable? Should the vendors publish ranges if they don't mean the published weights to be fixed values? Or should they publish maximum weights? How far should a vendor go when publishing weights?
Just to reiterate. I like SMD products and this is the first time I have this kind of issue with any of the UL manufacturers I have bought from (SMD, GG, MLD, Lawson, Trail Designs, Zpacks etc.). So please no torches, just a sensible discussion about reasonable expectations.
ManfredJun 19, 2012 at 12:35 pm #1888323
> So my question to the wider community — independent of vendor —
> is how much variability do you find acceptable. 1%, 2%, 5% or even 10%?
I had a chance to use the Cuben Haven over the past weekend
and I'm really very happy with it. By using the SMD "L" stakes
rather than my groundhog stakes I saved 2oz, which would make
up for the Haven nettent weight difference.
As for variability. My experience is that the UL cottage guys
(and I have bought from most of them) have been always been
within an ounce of their specs. I think we have now established that
the Haven nettent is not manufacturing variability but rather
a change to a more durable netting. I expect that all the latest
batch of nettents will be very close to the same weight.
How much variability I would find acceptable varies by the absolute
weight. For example an item that is supposed to be 5 grams but
weighs 8 grams – I'm not going to care. That is way below what I
can feel even although the percent difference is huge.
On the other hand a 1 pound item, I would expect to be within an oz,
And a 5 pound item to be within a couple ounces of spec.Jun 19, 2012 at 2:21 pm #1888348
Sometimes when you've been around a longtime you forget that there are lots of new people who've not experienced the rough and tumble world that characterized the early days of ultralight gear. Also in recent years materials has become more consistent in weight. In the early days of SMD we'd get a supply of tents in two colors where one color was often as much as two ounces heaver than the other. Simply because the application of silicone could vary significantly between production runs.
There have also been times in our existence when we made changes to a product between production runs which lead to as much as 1.5 ounce weight savings. Yet, we maintained the heavier weight on our product pages for over a year. Funny no one accused us of running a fraudulent business when that happened.
I realize that many people associate weight as an absolute specification. The reality is that final weight is culmination of a number of processes. It can and does vary even between different products in the same production run. From a design aspect, we don't and can't specify a weight. We do set weight targets or goals we're trying to reach. Then we try and work with all of the various components to achieve the goal. This frequently means shaving a bit off here adding a bit there in the design phase.
Even then weights can alter when moving from design to production. So when issuing a new product, we generally delay publication of the weight until after we've received production items. Then a number of items are weighted, the average is generated and published.
Things start getting far more complex when doing subsequent production runs. Then add in buying large quantities of materials for multiple production runs of different items of gear that may share common fabrics and notions. Things occasionally get tweaked to respond to customer complaints or suggestions. Gear gets assembled differently as techniques improve, parts change if a style is no longer available or a better part is available at a lower cost.
Once a product is designed and added to our product mix, there are any number of places where weights are posted. These include numerous locations on the website, catalog, flyers, price list, hang tags, etc. Invariably if someone comes along a spots a discrepancy in the weights listed in any one of the possible locations, we'll get multiple emails from people happy to point out our failings. As such we try to maintain some handle on things by limiting our updates to times when we're dealing with our entire product and marketing literature at one go. It's easier and it ensures more accuracy in the end.
Believe me, there's no one who hates increasing the weight of gear as much as I do. Most of my thoughts are on reducing weight, not increasing it. So if we do need to occasionally increase the weight on an item it's done because it makes the product the better.Jun 19, 2012 at 2:43 pm #1888356
Ron, thank you very much for your prompt explanations. It all sounds very reasonable to me. I'm very much looking forward to the new tent. I've been using a Zpacks Hexamid Twin mostly for solo use and a Tarptent Double Rainbow for two person. I'm hoping the cuben haven with the net tent will take the place of the double rainbow for two person trips at significant weight savings. Thanks again. -Bill.Jun 20, 2012 at 11:36 am #1888692
Thanks for starting this post Manfred. I just noticed it last night so I'm a little late joining in. I also ordered a Cuben Haven with the Net Tent. It was mailed out on schedule (June 12th).
I weighed both when they arrived and my first impression was that these are high quality ultralight products with the innovative design typical of SMD.
The tarp weighs 10 ozs without the stuff sack. The net tent weighs 16.7 ozs with the stuff sack and 16.1 without it.
I haven't setup the tarp because I noticed some of the seams were not taped and it looked like the stitching was stretching the material.
Ron took my call yesterday and spent a lot of time thoroughly explaining the reasons for the difference between the advertised weight and the actual weight of the net tent. The variation in the weight of the newer material was described in his post.
Ron also explained that all of the load bearing seams have been taped and that the few seams that have not can be sealed with a silicon based sealer (like other tarps) or with the use of cuben tape. He mentioned that the tape used on the tarp is for structural reinforcement and the water tightness is not the primary benefit.
Considering the total price for the tarp and net tent I was impressed with the cuben tarp, but disappointed by the weight variation in the net tent.
My only experience with industry variations is in the residential and commercial real estate appraisal industry. We typically accept a 10% range as acceptable. This 10% range means 5% above or 5% below an indicated value. In the appraisal industry an acceptable range for a 14 ozs piece of gear would be from 13.3 ozs to 14.7 ozs.
Is this applicable to ultralight gear manufactured by a designer with decades of experience in the cottage industry? Probably not. It's important for me to remember that UL gear is for recreation, not a federally insured financial transaction.
Although I wish I had one of the lighter weight net tents from the previous batch, I'm still psyched to get out on the trail with my wife and use this new gear. I'm a gear head. I weigh all my stuff. This gear is extremely cool.
I'm glad that designing, manufacturing and delivering innovative high quality gear when promised are the top priorities, although having the advertised and actual weights match would be appreciated when deciding what gear to buy in the future.
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