Best practice consensus: adding a frame for Jam?

[Sam Sockwell]

The first question of course is do I pause to look up the spelling of consensus?

I carry a Synmat so mat for stabilization is out.

I started reading through some posts, using real estate signs etc on BPL, but:
Is there a simple way that most people address this concern, if indeed they choose to go the modification route?

[Gary Dunckel]

I picked up a couple of aluminum frame stays when Brendan Swihart kindly offered them last winter. One was used to replace the delrin rods in my Osprey Hornet prototype pack. I wasn't sure what to do with the other one. I was down in my war room, making those titanium pot supports for you guys, my hands needed a rest, and I was just staring at some gear strewn about the room. I happened to notice the frame stay sitting next to my Jam 2, and I saw the light. Here's what I did:

I sewed loops in the pack's compression straps, using kevlar thread, and also a tubular webbing section into the seam where the hip belt connected to the pack body. I sewed closed the bottom of the tubular webbing. The inverted U- shaped frame width happened to be exactly right to fit into the two hydration ports of the pack.

This photo shows the back view, where the aluminum frame exits the hydration ports, and also the load lifters that I sewed into the pack seam (the bottom ends are attached to the tops of the shoulder straps as you can see in the photo above).

This shows the inside of the top of the pack. I added two loops of Velcro to hold the frame firmly in place. These were sewn directly through the pack seam and connected to the load lifter straps on the outside. This secured the load lifters to the frame.

The frame stay and load lifters added maybe 1.75 ounces to the pack. I had already removed the stock frame sheet and hydration sleeve, and I place a GG Sitlite pad inside against my back (I always carry one, as a multi-use item–part of my pillow system, for a comfortable seat on a log, etc.). My Jam now weighs 1# 11 oz., and it carries 25# more comfortably than before. I'm thinking of adding another ounce or so to beef up the shoulder straps, as that's now the weak link for me.

[MFR]

Awesome mod Gary! I had the same idea a little while back, but I ultimately decided to get a pack with a removable frame (Granite Gear Crown). Honestly, after I came up with the idea, then decided it wasn't worth the trouble, I wondered why GoLite has never added this as a removable component to the Jam. For the weight, it is incredibly functional. Making it removable would just increase the Jam's draw as multifunctional.

Sam–do you carry a thin CCF to protect your inflatable? I just fold up a 1/8" Gossamer Gear Thinlight and use it as a frame for light loads (up to 20-25 pounds) and then use it to protect my NeoAir. Just a thought.

[Sam Sockwell]

Gary- nice work and photos.
Clayton- had not thought inflatable needed protection but if a thin pad adds structure too might be a good idea. Will look into your GG idea.

More thoughts anyone?
Sam.

[MFR]

Sam, I'm not sure if they do, but it is something I have done to protect the investment. A lot of inflatable users do the same (I certainly wasn't original).

[Warren Greer]

Posts started by David Chenault. He has a different idea than Garys, which by the way is pretty awesome. Either idea will provide support for extending the comfort of that pack. Good luck.

[Sam Sockwell]

will check for thread Sam

[David Chenault]

That's some great work Gary.

My idea, which I've yet to actually execute, is to sew/glue a sleeve into the stock backpad for a stay. A bit more flexible and easier to do, but I would imagine not as supportive as Gary's mod (which would be harder to do with the newer hipbelts). I rather expect GoLite to offer something like this stock within the next few years.

[Mike M]

concur on the great work Gary! looks like something from the factory

were these frames one offs that he was offering, or are these something that can still be sourced? that's exactly what I'm looking at for my Pinnacle :)

thanks

Mike

[Gary Dunckel]

Thanks for the nice words. everyone. It was a case where everything lined up by chance–the frame just happened to be the exact shape and size for the Jam. The sewing part was easy and minimal, and the hydration ports allowed it to work as you see it. I thought I might take it the Skurka presentation at the Boulder GoLite store, and show it to Coup. But then I remembered when the GL management guys just humored me a year ago when I proudly showed them the Ion that I had extensively modified, and I decided to blow it off.

Mike, why don't you contact Brendan Swihart to see if he has any more of that frame tubing. He's a great guy, and he didn't charge much for these. I just told him how wide and how long I wanted them to be, and I asked him if he would do the bending for me (which was nice thing for him to do).

[Brendan Swihart]

I have 3 left. Mike, you can have dibs on one if you want.

$15 each shipped. PM me if interested.

[Mike M]

pm sent :)

[Daniel Tekiela]

So this mod looks pretty awesome for how simple it is. One question, How did you create the "sheath" that the bottom of the sides of the stay slide into? I would love to get my hands on one of those frame stays!

[Mike M]

received my frame, looks like it's going to work- have to find someone who can sew though :)

I did have one question- there are small loops formed where the load lifter straps attach to the pack, instead of going through the hydration ports, is there any reason you couldn't go through these loops? there would be no need to add the velcro tabs at the top would this routing

[Michael Ray]

> Sam–do you carry a thin CCF to protect your inflatable? I just fold up a 1/8" Gossamer Gear Thinlight and use it as a frame for light loads (up to 20-25 pounds) and then use it to protect my NeoAir. Just a thought.

I do the same except my CCF is one of the Oware ones (and I have a 2009 Pinnacle). It's so flexible though that even with 6 thicknesses worth it doesn't provide any more support than what the OEM did. Perhaps the GG pad is stiffer?

What did work well for me was adding a small piece of coroplast (eg, election sign) to the OEM pad. I think I used about 10"x12" taped to the OEM pad so it wouldn't shift. The issue I had was with loads over 25 lbs the OEM pad would buckle at the top of the hipbelt – this solved that.

What also worked for me was a generic blue CCF cut down to 50" but it was almost twice the weight of the full-length Oware one.

I don't believe I've carried more than 33 lbs with it.

[Nathan Hays]

I just bought a Jam 70L (884g/31.2oz) to carry a heavier load (and fit the >>x%^?!! bear cannister). It is fine up to 30-35 lbs, but then the weight is all on the shoulders. The pack really doesn't do well transferring weight to the hip belt. At the moment, I like the large capacity to allow the quilt and jacket to air out more and not squeeze them down (npi).

After reading the OP, I bought a 6 foot x 1/4" soft aluminum rod and bent it to match the stock stiffener. The rod is solid, so it weighs 125g (4.4 oz) which is a lot more than the other post's stays. I removed the stock stiffener so the additional weight is 71g/2.5oz. It slips in where the stock stiffener goes although I had to bend it to get it in. That makes it less than removable. Nothing needed to be sewn.

Huge difference in comfort for heavier loads. I can *almost* enjoy hiking the 45 lbs of food I'll be carrying in to resupply some JMTers next week.

[Gary Dunckel]

Here are the final mods of my Jam–I beefed up the shoulder and hip belt padding. I made sleeves which I sewed to the seams of the existing straps. The tops of the shoulder sleeves are not sewn closed, which allows me to easily replace the Evo pads. The hip belt sleeves are only sewn at the top and bottom. I found it interesting that all four sleeves/pads only added .5 oz. to the pack's weight, so it now weighs 1# 11.5 oz. I'm a happy guy.

Today, I'll take a black Sharpie to the white cord on the hip belt sleeves, which was previously done to the shoulder strap sleeve cords. The white cord looks kinda cheesy…

To Mike: If you use the loops in the load lifters to secure the aluminum stay, I'm not sure that you will be able to insert the ends into the sleeves at the bottom. I look forward to seeing what you guys come up with your own "de-Jammed" Jams.

To Daniel: The sheaths were made from 1" tubular webbing. REI sells it, and probably climbing stores do also.

[Don Abernathey]

I almost bought a Jam too – got caught up for a moment by the low price and light weight. But I stopped when I realized that it is just a bag with straps – not a backpack really. So I'm continuing with my old "heavy" pack that fits me perfectly and is tried and true.

I commend the efforts to rebuild the Jam into something it was never intended to be. But I think this thread best serves as a caution to those pondering a purchase because there is a lot of hype within the ultra-light crowd.

[Brad Walker]

Yes I don't think that the Jam (or any other frameless pack really) is meant to carry >25 lbs with much if not any comfort (in fact the Jam does better than most of it's similarly-built competition, check out the BPL articles).

I take this thread to show that with a little work you can greatly increase the versatility of the Jam. Right now I switch back to a different framed pack if I need to carry more than 20lbs or so, but now I have some inspiration to change that.

I don't see any sort of hype involved. Both framed and frameless packs have their own limits of functionality (or at least best uses), which I don't think is news.

[Dale Wambaugh]

You will find many recommendations to buy yor pack last, so it suits your load. There are many variables and personal preferences. Most recommend frameless packs for loads under 30 pounds and almost always add the provisio that "less is better."

You will find some of the most experienced backpackers around on this site and hype gets shot down pretty quick. And you can't lump all UL hikers in one group—- it is a technique, not an orthodoxy.

I'm puzzled when people will try to make a product into something else when there are perfectly good examples of the end product available. In this case the Ospery Exos packs might do the job better. On the other hand, the spirit of innovation, thinking outside the box and a good dose of iconoclasm are what have lowered pack loads and allowed many to hike with more comfort or even hike at all.

If you want hype, go look at 8 pound packs dripping unneeded gadgets and hardware at 3x the cost!

[Mike M]

ultra light works out just fine as long as one stays within the parameters of what can be realistically (comfortably) carried. if you bought the Jam thinking this will be great for carrying out 1/2 of a boned out elk you've made a serious error in judgement

if on the other hand you occasionally exceed the carrying capacity of your pack and you're looking for a workaround without purchasing a new pack, having a lightweight frame, that is removable when not needed is right in line with ultralight thinking

there is rumor that Golite might just follow this lead and build a lightweight pack w/ a removable frame, of course that could be just a lot of hype :)

back at Gary, not following you why locating the frame within the loops of the load lifters would impact fit lower- maybe I should post a pic, the Pinnacle comes w/ load lifters that are roughly in line w/ the hydration ports

Mike

[Gary Dunckel]

Mike, a photo of what you are thinking of would help me visualize things. My thinking is that if you thread the aluminum stay through the loops on your load lifters first, then it would be nearly impossible to run the stay through the compression strap loops and then down to the tubular webbing. But if you insert the stay into these first, and then disassemble the load lifters and attach the stay to them last, then it could work, right? Can you disassemble the load lifters? Maybe I just have brain-lock here… Please post a photo of whatever you come up with, Mike.

[Mike M]

OK now I'm w/ you :) the frame fit really nicely through the loops, but you're correct that would make it impossible to weave through the loops on the compression straps, could make the loops out of velcro and then you could attach it that way, but I think simply nylon strap loops would be easiest

Gary- did you just cut a little length off the existing compression straps to make the loops? also your bottom attachments points- are they on the interior of the belt? does that cause any problems w/ the belt? could the pockets be located on the outside where the belt meets the pack?

thanks

[Gary Dunckel]

Mike, I just folded the compression straps over, making the loops–I didn't cut anything. I sewed them together with kevlar thread, for overkill strength, but heavy duty nylon thread would work as well.

I chose to place the tubular webbing on the inside of the hip belt, mainly for esthetics (to hide them). It's easier to find the existing pack seam when placing it on the inside. All of my mod stitches were placed into existing pack seams for strength. The mesh pocket on the outside sort of interferes with finding the seam on that side of the hip belt. As for the fit, I don't feel the stay much at all– perhaps only if I was "doing the Twist" without the hip belt cinched up, then I can barely feel the very bottom of the stay. If you place yours on the outside it would give you a smidge more room at the hips, but not much more. And if you place the sleeves on the outside, and then beef up the hip pads like I did, you won't feel the rods at all, no matter how crazy you dance.

Let me know if I can be of further help, Mike.

PS–I'll be hitting a few trails in YNP in August (Rescue Cr., H*llroaring Cr, and Lamar R. in the north, and Fan Cr. and Specimen Cr. on the west side)). Any goofy griz incidents so far this year? I talked with Jim Williams, the head BC ranger in Mammoth, and he indicated that the melt-out was early and that things are rapidly getting dry. With the weather this year so radically different from 2011, I'm curious as to whether the bears will get all psycho again. I hate when that happens…

[Mike M]

ahhh- good idea :) my first order of business is find someone who can sew

no bear incidents yet (knock on wood), it is shaping up to be a potential bad year for fires though- they had three going in Bozeman area yesterday- we hit a balmy 111 today in Miles City :(

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