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Lightweight Gear Excluding Smaller Wallets


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  • #1221871
    Bryan Hoofnagle
    Member

    @bhoofnagle

    Locale: Rocky Mountains

    Is it just me or shouldn't simpler designs and cottage industry manufacturing reduce prices in the burgeoning world of ultra-lite gear?

    It's disconcerting to have to pay $200+ for a bivy sack or $300 for a simple quilt. Quite honestly it excludes those who just want to simplify their hiking experience with quality, well-designed and created gear.

    I want companies like Bozeman MT works to make money on the quality they offer, but frankly the whole industry is becoming extremely expensive. If anyone can offer insight, please do.

    #1378804
    Stephen Nelson
    Member

    @stephenn6289

    Locale: Sunshine State

    I am no economics genius, but this is the way I see it. Companies like Bozeman Mountain Works make specialty products on smaller runs than companies like The North Face. This requires that the price per item be greater. Also, they use expensive (and lightweight) high-tech fabrics. These cost a lot to manufacture and aquire because they are not very common. That's what drives the price up. Dr. J even stated in his Bozeman podcast that weight is the primary concern and that money is the last thing to be considered.

    This being said, you don't have to drop a grand to enjoy the wilderness, just get lightweight and cheap stuff.
    Get a Golite poncho/tarp and a Gossamer Gear polycro groundsheet. Use 2 L soda bottles, pepsi-can alcohol stoves. Those kind of ideas are what makes this fun, and you can still get below 12 lbs of baseweight. As far as sleeping bags go, I use the North Face Beeline 900 (2005 edition) at 20 oz and now available for about $175 online. Not extremely cheap, but for 800+ fill down and pertex, not bad. Kelty offer 650+ down sleepingbags for under $100. Going light doesn't have to bee too expensive, you just have to stay away from high-tech fabrics and small production runs.

    Having said that, I think I speak for all of by stating that hopefully as lighter gear becomes more common, the price will fall.

    #1378807
    Ernie Elkins
    Member

    @earthdweller

    Locale: North Carolina

    This is an issue that I've wondered about as well, Bryan. There are two elements, though, that I would imagine have a big impact on cost. One is the cost of ultralight materials — lightweight, high-performance fabrics are very expensive. The other is that many of the products in question are made in the USA and Canada, so I would expect that labor costs are higher. Frankly, I'm impressed with how competitive companies like TarpTent and ULA really are — both produce high-quality, well-designed equipment at prices that are in-line with the offerings from much larger companies.

    #1378809
    Ken Bennett
    Spectator

    @ken_bennett

    Locale: southeastern usa

    It takes some effort, but making your own gear is a satisfying way to have top-quality stuff without breaking the bank. You'll need a sewing machine, of course, and a fair amount of practice in using it. Top-quality fabrics are available from several vendors on-line. You can make a great bivy sack for about $60 in materials — I know because I just did it. (Okay, technically my lovely wife did the actual sewing, because I am a fumble-fingered idiot. But I keep practicing.) You can make a terrific tarp at exactly the size you want, a pack with all the features you need and none you don't, even high-end clothing. There is something very primal about heading out into the wilderness with equipment that you made yourself — plus you get to stick it to The Man at the same time.

    #1378811
    Bill Fornshell
    BPL Member

    @bfornshell

    Locale: Southern Texas

    Learn how to sew and make your own gear.

    Excellent material is now available that is just as good, maybe better or the same as that being used by the big and smaller gear makers.

    Avoid the big mark-up $$$$$$ on gear and learn how to make your own.

    #1378812
    Alec Muthig
    Member

    @alekat

    Locale: Wyoming, USA

    I'll agree with the do-it-yourself approach. I recently bought a yard of silNylon for around $10 and started making some prototype shell/VB mitts. Takes time, but is very relaxing and very satisfying.

    #1378813
    Sarah Kirkconnell
    BPL Member

    @sarbar

    Locale: Homesteading On An Island In The PNW

    Cottage Gear Industry isn't cheap to do-since if you don't make 1,000 packs at once, your cost for supplies will be much higher. Just one view on why small companies can be pricey.
    Often you are also paying a fair wage to someone in the US to sew the items. You get what you pay for in some cases.
    (Hence this also can apply to why Thermarest products are pricey: they make their stuff in the US, not in a sweatshop in Asia!)

    #1378816
    Alec Muthig
    Member

    @alekat

    Locale: Wyoming, USA

    Hey… I'll sell you a SUL silNylon Wallet for $45!

    #1378817
    Steve .
    Member

    @pappekak

    Locale: Tralfamadore

    What is a decent sewing maching to get that won't break the bank. Is the Brother LS-2125i any good? I have a WallyWorld gift card I have to use up…

    #1378819
    Miles Barger
    BPL Member

    @milesbarger

    Locale: West Virginia

    MYOG is great. Satisfying, just what you want, a learning experience, money-saving, etc.

    But buying gear is great, too. What I'd urge you to think about is 1) the cost of basic materials and 2) the amount of time you'd think it would take to make a particular item well. For 1, if you want the absolute lightest or close to it, the materials are expensive. The type of development and machinery it takes to produce fabrics like spinnaker and cuben are complicated and the market isn't huge, so there's really no way around that for small business owners. For 2, if materials cost you $60 for a bivy sack that costs more like $175 from one of our belovéd cottage manufacturers, $115 of that is for time. How long does it take to make? If it took 8 hours, that'd be $14.38 an hour. At that rate, the manufacturer would be making $575/week, $28750/yr with two weeks off. I understand that with outfits involving more than one person, added costs, website maintenance and bandwidth, customer support, tools, tax, etc., that it becomes much more complicated. But, at any rate, I'd guess that my estimate is higher than what's actually made by someone in the business. Personally, I am more than happy to pay for UL gear that is much better made and developed than something I'd make at home, supports manufacture in the USA, and supports wonderful individuals who have the guts to start their own business and support this community.

    #1378821
    Alec Muthig
    Member

    @alekat

    Locale: Wyoming, USA

    Or…

    MYOG = stress therapy. Therapy costs, what, $100/hr? So by spending 4 hours sewing something myself I've actually saved $400 in therapy bills! :)

    #1378825
    Ernie Elkins
    Member

    @earthdweller

    Locale: North Carolina

    As others have pointed out, making your own gear is definitely your most affordable option. However, as Stephen indicated, there are definitely some bargains out there. I like how Ron at MLD has balanced his offerings. If you can afford the premium prices, he offers some really amazing stuff, like a catenary-cut cuben tarp that weights 4.5 ounces and costs $180. If you're on a tight budget, though, his Monk tarps offer great quality at very affordable prices (his 6×9 silnylon tarp costs about the same as a 6×8 silnylon tarp from Equinox, yet his construction techniques are clearly superior). Likewise, if you can afford to spend $200 on a bivy, then Ron's Soul Bivy is really impressive. If you can do without a few of the premium features, though, the Superlight Bivy is a much more affordable alternative. In fact, a Superlight Bivy plus Monk Tarp would cost about the same (or less) than any number of well-made solo tents from industry giants like The North Face, MSR, etc. So, for about the same price as a three-pound tent that's made in Vietnam, you can have an American made, ultralight shelter setup that weighs about a pound.

    #1378830
    Sarah Kirkconnell
    BPL Member

    @sarbar

    Locale: Homesteading On An Island In The PNW

    I'll add that while I sew and make gear, there are things I am in NO way going to risk $16 a yard material on, and mess up. At that point it is just easier to buy said product and know that it will look good ;-)

    #1378836
    Shawn Basil
    Member

    @bearpaw

    Locale: Southeast

    I hope I can offer a couple of thoughts that can help.

    I've worked for REI since 2001 and one of the really big perks are the obscenely low prices manufacturers offer employees for select gear. I can often buy gear for a fraction of the retail price, and I have amassed a great deal over this time. However, when I buy from "niche" companies like Six Moon Designs or ULA, I have to pay full price. Still I have done so on a number of occasions and found the price for such gear to be worth EVERY PENNY despite getting mass market gear for sometimes as little as 1/4 the price of the specialty item. Why? It's just that much better than any thing on the regular market. The price is very fair to me.

    As for MYOG, I often NEED therapy 1/2 way through the process. HOWEVER, when I am done, I am overjoyed at having a great piece of gear that really fits me well, and has saved me a substantial amount over what I might have bought from some one else.

    #1378838
    Aaron Sorensen
    BPL Member

    @awsorensen

    Locale: South of Forester Pass

    Yes,
    Good deals are hard to come by.
    I do not believe any UL product should cost more than double of what you can purchase the parts for.

    The thing that really gets me is sleeping bags.
    For instance, if a baffled bag has 12 ounces of down in it, lets say it costs $275.

    Now take a baffled bag that has the same dimensions but has 16 ounces of down in it. All of a sudden your paying about $375.
    There is almost the same amount of material in it, and it took the same amount of time to sew it, but for $30 more down, you end up paying $100 more?????
    I don't get it.

    I believe the absolute best deals are back packs.
    If you try purchasing the goods for duplication a pack, you can spend even more than the bag sells for.
    You can also load up the back pack right there in the store and at least have an idea if it is comfortable or not.

    Next time I'm in Rei, I'm going to grab a bag and ask to use there freezer.

    #1378843
    Sam Haraldson
    BPL Member

    @sharalds

    Locale: Gallatin Range

    Don't forget most big companies outsource their labor to foreign countries who have very lax labor laws. If all companies were required to follow fair trade principles then most of the gear we own would be priced more in-line with the prices our cottage manufacturers here in the states are charging.

    #1378874
    Russell Swanson
    Member

    @rswanson

    Locale: Midatlantic

    Aaron wrote: 'The thing that really gets me is sleeping bags.
    For instance, if a baffled bag has 12 ounces of down in it, lets say it costs $275.

    Now take a baffled bag that has the same dimensions but has 16 ounces of down in it. All of a sudden your paying about $375.
    There is almost the same amount of material in it, and it took the same amount of time to sew it, but for $30 more down, you end up paying $100 more?????
    I don't get it.'

    I've wondered about this very same thing. A few ounces more of down filling really seems to pump the price up considerably.

    I'll second the comments Shawn made about buying gear from cottage shops like ULA or Tarptent. I don't mind plunking down some extra money for a product produced in the states with local labor. I feel good about supporting the manufacturer's local communuity.

    Also keep in mind that the materials for some of the more bleeding-edge gear (like BMW's stuff) is really premium material that isn't cheap for the manufacturer to obtain. And, as others have stated, the design & production costs are not amortized out of nearly as many units as a mass-market item from The North Face or the like. I'm surprised that prices on some of the cottage industry producers aren't higher than they are!

    #1378881
    Kirk Beiser
    Member

    @kab21

    Locale: Pic: Gun Lake, BWCA

    I remember someone saying awhile ago that it's really expensive to be a heavyweight backpacker (think all of the bombproof items). It's cheap to be a lightweight backpacker (simpler designs, simpler materials, less materials). It's expensive to be an ultralighter (simpler designs, very expensive materials).

    Do you want the 22 oz 30deg bag or the 30 oz 30deg bag? The 32 oz tarptent or GVP's 24oz spinnaker tarptent? A $100 12 oz jacket or a $200 10oz jacket?

    If you need to have the absolut lightest gear it will cost you. Of course there are many exceptions, MYOG for one. And there are many other creative ways to get around it.

    Kirk

    #1378898
    Dondo .
    BPL Member

    @dondo

    Locale: Colorado Rockies

    BMW isn't for those of us with smaller wallets. It's more of a UL boutique for those who want the lightest of the light and are willing to pay for it.

    I noticed from your profile that you're in Boulder. You're in luck. Go to the Golite website, choose what you want and wait for the semi-annual warehouse sale. You'll be able to find most of what you want for half off the already reasonable retail prices. The last one was in November, so you'll have to wait a few months. Show up early on the first day of the sale for best selection.

    #1378903
    Carol Brown
    Spectator

    @brownwetdog

    Locale: Idaho

    << I like how Ron at MLD has balanced his offerings.>>

    Plus where else do you get features like this (found on the Grace Duo Spintex .97 Tarp) other than the cottage industries:

    "Built from free-range Silnylon, no artificial growth hormones"

    #1378904
    Frank Ramos
    Member

    @frprovis

    Before you complain about equipment prices, you should put the situation in perspective. Suppose you camp 1 night a year. Then clearly it doesn't make much sense to spend $2000/year on equipment, which I probably did last year. But suppose you plan to camp 100 nights and you won't be paying rent during those 100 days. Then that same $2000 equates to $20/night, which in turn equates to $600/month rent, which is not that much.

    What I find amazing is how people think nothing of spending $5000/year on medical insurance. With a few minor exception, people get sick because they mistreat their bodies. Incidentally, I include anyone who stresses themselves while outdoors in the category of people who mistreat their bodies. Unless you are a genetic mutant, your body should work fine with absolutely no further medical care for another 60 or so years, once you make it past the first 10 years. The only thing humans and other mammals really need is regular teeth cleaning to prevent gum disease, but that is cheap. (Humans also need dental care for cavities, due to the invention of refined sugar. If you can wean yourself from refined sugar and other processed foods, you'll never get cavities.)

    It also never ceases to amaze me how people blow money buying more housing and automobile than they really need. Everyone needs a place to live, and a room for each person is certainly nice. But spending $500K for a house like even middle income people do in California is just insane. We're talking like $30,000/year down the toilet for something like that. And what about replacing a perfectly functional old car with a new one just because it shines pretty. That's an easy way to blow $5000/year right there. Even the most wasteful backpacking gear addict doesn't come close to wasting money like housing or automobile addicts.

    #1378905
    sam s
    Member

    @123456789

    Frank wrote: …."you should put the situation in perspective."

    I would agree, as you might also.

    Frank wrote:
    "What I find amazing is how people think nothing of spending $5000/year on medical insurance. With a few minor exception, people get sick because they mistreat their bodies."

    Obviously you've never had to visit a hospital because of an accident (the major reason for hospital visits) deal with a newborn child that was born very, very sick (who didn't "mistreat their bodies"), or faced financial ruin because of a dying relative or spouse without having coverage (both major causes of bankruptcy filings).

    Frank wrote:
    "But spending $500K for a house like even middle income people do in California is just insane."

    Hummm Frank. Starter homes in many of the larger urban markets are well *over* $500K, a few near $1M.

    It would appear that you have "pre-judged" several situations with less than the full set of facts.
    You may wish to consider your words, prior to pressing the "SEND" key.

    #1378927
    Ryan Jordan
    Admin

    @ryan

    Locale: Central Rockies

    This is an excellent thread. I hope we explore this (saving $) a bit more in our 07-08 editorial calendar.

    I'd really like to encourage people on a budget to make your own gear, or not to get lulled into the belief that you need the latest and greatest to have an awesome wilderness experience – or a truly ultralight kit. It's simply not true.

    I'm also a big proponent of recycling used gear back into the marketplace. If you have gear sitting around that you're not using, and don't plan to use, sell it cheap to somebody who might not otherwise be able to afford it. Scout troops are a GREAT place to give or sell used lightweight gear.

    I struggle, however, with putting heavy gear back into the hands of the unsuspecting ;) Maybe we should treat this like book burning and sponsor a Terraplane bonfire. I'd even be willing to offset the carbon emissions by purchasing one of those green coupons.

    #1378934
    Neil Bender
    Member

    @nebender

    A general rule in design (applies to bicycles, outdoor gear, race cars, military equipment, etc) is you can optimize only two of the following three aspects: strong, light, cheap. If you want something cheap and strong it won't be light (ex: cast iron). If you want something light and strong it won't be cheap (ex: titanium). If you get something cheap and light it won' be strong (ex: paper). Some ultralight or home-made gear solutions deliberately sacrifice strength or durability to reduce weight, but most companies don't want to risk complaints from average users so they need to use expensive materials or designs to drop weight.

    There's no such thing as a fair price. All values are subjective and based on the individual circumstances of each seller and buyer at the point where a transaction is actually made. Wait long enough and products are sold below cost as they are liquidated. Wait too long and classics regain value as they become rare or collectable or rediscovered.

    As to the subjectivity of value, versus the myth of intrinsic value, consider bottled water. We get can get water treated to EPA primary drinking water standards virtually for free, yet pay a dollar for a pint of bottled branded water in a 4 cent bottle. Yet hardly no one accuses the bottled water companies of gouging or profiteering, because they provide a convenient solution. Same with running shoes. The hundred shoes are not too much different than the 40 dollar off brand shoes, but people will pay extra for a Nike Swoosh. People love to see there favorite celebrities rake in on their World Tour or latest blockbuster movie, and never accuse entertainers and musicians of gouging when they make millions a year on a few hours of work a week.

    As far as making gear, the opportunity cost to me is not sitting on my butt watching the IQ-reducer box. Worth every penny of my time.

    #1378935
    Mike Barney
    Member

    @eaglemb

    Locale: AZ, the Great Southwest!

    There's an interesting calculation one can do: How much are you willing to pay / how much does the next ounce reduction cost you.
    We did this for several Scouts going to Philmont, and there seemed to be a full spectrum of cost/weight ratio:
    We saw the big item $100/lb saving and the more esoteric speciality item that could be as much as $50/ounce.

    Borrowing or sharing becomes very cost effective.
    MikeB

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